^ So my bullish rookie luck found me at a place where I am now with my calibration?
If so I am pleased.
TBH I did have quite a few attempts all with cell 18-20 / contrast 80+ with strange results and value oddities, that I gave up and started again with other permutations.
The new Samsung panel tech "seems" to make the 8500 work somewhat like LED Backlight. I truly hope I can come up with some answers tomorrow. Unfortunately I just received the following email from the owner: "Took delivery today. Maybe we will have a couple of hours to make a maiden fishing voyage tomorrow" which refers to a new fishing boat so in addition to my calibration gear I'll be schlepping a tackle box and a couple of Walleye rods - retirement is good. lol
the one im thinking of had a problem with warm1, warm2, standard etc were all the same. no effect on picture, no differences. the cs remotely did something which fixed that issue on his set. completely different but thought worth mentioning....
Originally Posted by shpankey
The eco thing. It was suggested to try lowering the cell first before doing the eco trick then doing it then going back and raising cell back to 20. Doing this had no effect on the overall brightness of the set that all of us here could tell (by all of us here, I mean people at my house right now). Certainly not a noteworthy increase in brightness anyhow. Perhaps it may measure a morsel but to the naked eye, none.
i may be wrong but i think he may also have said it was dim or the like. wish i could recall who it was... (floridaman??) and i believe it was 64"
ECO, ECO, ECO, ECO.....OMG.....Well folks, I just made a huge discovery with my 51" 8500. I'm a little embarrased to even mention this, since I have owned my tv for about 2 months now. I have never calibrated a tv, and have never measured light output from any screen before. All this recent talk about the ECO setting/bug had me wondering why I seemed to need/crave more brightness on my picture....I kept hearing owners say that with a picture putting out 45 fL (i.e. Pie's cal) during night viewing, it can be a little bright....I was still cranking the cell light up higher with his cal.....it wasn't bright enough for me........In addition, I have seen many owners calibrating movie mode to an even lower 40 fL (seems to be a standard), and all this time I kept saying to myself, that's just crazy!! I could never watch my tv with an even lower light output. I do remember messing with my eco setting a while back, possibly during the time Floridaman posted an anomaly with that setting. I remember turning on the eco sensor, then setting min. cell light to 20, then turning off eco sensor. I thought everything was fine after that.....Well, that just wasn't the case. Tonight, after talking about the eco sensor in this thread, I decided to enter into that menu, and play with the setting. I turn on the eco sensor, then I reduced the min. Cell light from 20 to around 14....i saw no incremental reduction of screen brightness by lowering the setting down to 14 or so. Then I proceeded to turn off the eco sensor, and BAM!!! My screen immediately increased a measurable difference in brightness. I couldn't believe it! I then turned eco back on, increased the min. Cell light back to 20, then turned eco sensor back off, and saw no change to the previous brightness I just gained. It's so surreal! I don't have to crank my cell light to 20 now for night viewing...it's way too bright for my eyes....we'll see what happens during daytime viewing. What a revelation!!! All this time.....Argghhhh! Pie, your cal looks fine now on my screen...no off-tinting/subdued look like I was seeing before. I can see now what you're seeing!! I'm not sure how much brightness I gained, but I can tell you that with my current cell light at 16, it looks every bit as bright (if not brighter) than I was getting with cell 20 before the eco adjustment. Edited by DanF8500 - 6/1/13 at 12:05am
Gonna try Dan's method for the Eco mode trick. Last night I turned my cell and contrast to 0 then did the eco thing, but Dan's method is definitely different sounding and I'm hoping this will do the trick...
Well, that just wasn't the case. Tonight, after talking about the eco sensor in this thread, I decided to enter into that menu, and play with the setting. I turn on the eco sensor, then I reduced the min. Cell light from 20 to around 14....i saw no incremental reduction of screen brightness by lowering the setting down to 14 or so. Then I proceeded to turn off the eco sensor, and BAM!!! My screen immediately increased a measurable difference in brightness. I couldn't believe it! I then turned eco back on, increased the min. Cell light back to 20, then turned eco sensor back off, and saw no change to the previous brightness I just gained.
The bolded part above Dan, is that the TV cell light from 20 to 14 or the Eco sensor from 20 to 14?
tomorrow I'll dig up my old posts when I first got the TV. I was quite upset about the big drop in brightness. I got a replacement 64 and exact same issue. it is the size. unless I got 2 bad tvs in a row. I suppose it's possible but I think it's just the larger size to be honest. but if not, I'd like to know asap so I can return this one as well.
I think it's partly due to expectations. With my 64", I can't even begin to imagine wanting more brightness. I actually dial mine down, it's so bright.
I did Dan's method both ways, lol. Hmm.. this definitely seemed to give it more brightness than before. I have all window shades open as the dawn light comes in and I would say it got noticeably brighter. Though I didn't have others here (or awake, lol) to witness it with me this time. I don't trust myself as much by myself. But thanks for that Dan, it seems you gave me a little bit more of pop there, at least to my own eye. Edited by shpankey - 6/1/13 at 7:33am
I've seen this happen before with the euro D series, samsung released firmware that reduced everyone's brightness a lot. You could fix it by adjusting some values in the service menu and then samsung released a fix for it. I would call and report the problem.
I've seen no changes in brightness with any of the firmware updates I've received. I know others are saying the same thing or weren't even sure if there was a change, so I don't think it's a universal issue.
At lower contrast and cell 20, I've had to adjust the 10pt an interval lower than the window being adjusted to get it to work (so interval 4 adjusts 50% window, etc.) I've read that once you get beyond 88 contrast it switches to line up correctly (interval 5 adjusting 50% window, and so on.) With a lower cell light that transition point in contrast may vary. Example, when I lower my cell from 20 to 15 and then start raising contrast I can see a transition on a greyscale pattern of shading shifting down at about 86 contrast on the way up and stops once I cross 88 or 89.
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The 10pt intervals shift with a lower contrast setting in the high to low 80's, this happens with the D series as well. I keep contrast at 95 on my set which is a D6500 and Cell at 20. On this set it gives me about 32ftL for Movie mode. One way around this shifting of the 10pt controls is to put up a greyscale ramp and increase one of the intervals to max and see which stimulus level it affects then adjust accordingly. It's kind of a pain. I didn't have to do it on my set though. I know a D6500 is different then a F8500.
On a side note, this discussion has inspired me to try higher contrast, lower cell light, my custom CMS, and gamma 0... And I do find myself liking it better. :-) The custom CMS not as washed out with gamma increased closer to 2.3 and the higher contrast with lower cell does provide a more even, pleasant picture but without sacrificing detail I had or cinema presentation. So far I'm liking it, but still evaluating, just sitting back and watching different content naturally. The true test is whether I get the urge to start tweaking again. :-P Still though, I stand by my witness of a 35ftl cal with 20 cell light (on two different calibrations from different calibrators) so this revelation doesn't change that fact. ;-)
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Elvamir, I know that Kevin Miller got at least 40ftl from the 64" at the shootout and this was dialing it back from what it was really capable of. So I'm not sure why you're hitting this ceiling. Weird. Even going to a MHT and comparing an 8500 to a VT60 shows huge differences in brightness between the Movie mode on the 8500 and the VT60 in THX Cinema (Day or Night). So if we assumed for a minute that 35ftl was the ceiling on the 8500, then I'd guess, based on outward appearances, that the VT60 was doing 15-20ftl, which I really doubt.
Just to throw a little more data in the pot. I did a quick calibration on my 64" this afternoon to get it a bit closer to where it should be while I am breaking it in. In Movie mode, with Cell at 15 and contrast at 94, I ended up with 41 fL. Measurements were taken with a Chroma 5 profiled to my iOne Pro using Calman software. I only did a quick 2 point and corrected a couple of primaries shooting for a gamma of 2.35.
Edit: Cell of 20 and contrast of 95 was in the mid fifties... gamma was at 0.
This sounds reasonable and I suspect typical of what I'm seeing on mine too as well as the shootout unit.
There have been many questions raised and I'll test whatever I have time for. Particular interests are zoyd's patterns pre and post FW, the Shootout discovery that Grayscale was not adjustable above 50% stimulus with Cell at 20, differences in max luminance movie vs CAL-DAY, if any, possible difference in MLL with RGB input HDMI Level Normal vs Low, and a few others. In the end, I still have to calibrate a display but will get in as much as I can - including a LightSpace Quick Profile to see if the 8500 might be capable of accurate 3D LUT calibration - other ABL sensitive displays are not good candidates....
Buzz, I think they made a fix to the Cal modes in one of the updates. I'm not sure if it's entirely fixed, but I thought some degree of improvement was there.
He done quite a few sammy's in the past but never an 8500. This was his first (though the tv was and still is really new so I don't hold that against him). He knew some stuff as he shot me a link to it winning the shootout but I don't know if he knew its specs. He did not want it at cell 20 and contrast at 95. I made him calibrate it there as I just couldn't accept less brightness than that. He recommended 33ftl I believe, which he had done a LOT of panny's at but I told him I preferred brighter sets and it's why I chose the 8500, since I deal with 9 windows and a wifey who loves the sun so he accommodated me.
Shpankey, remember that even at a lower ftl calibration of 33, the better behavior of the ABL on the 8500 will render brighter scenes in many instances, relative to the VT/ZT at the same ftl calibration. The ABL advantage will still be there, but perhaps not seen as often as at a higher ftl setting.
Of course that doesn't solve your overall brightness issue though. Edited by Ken Ross - 6/1/13 at 8:21am
To be honest, I'm really happy with the tv. 40 ftl is still pretty awesome and certainly better than the panny's limit of 33ftl. Sure, if samsung can fix it or do something to give me more I'll take it. But 40ftl at night or in a darkened room is exactly where I like it. Plus I seem to have a set that over excels at black levels so maybe this is my trade-off. I'm sure there would be others who might trade in 15 ftl off the top end for some even better blacks. It's not like 40 ftl is not awesome already. Heck, most people calibrate to that exact amount anyhow. So I am hesitant to say I have a brightness issue. That sounds too harsh... just, maybe a brightness anomaly that will probably get fixed in some firmware or a reset or something. btw, how does one do a reset?? like, a factory reset.