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F8500 Recommended Settings Thread..... - Page 30

post #871 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieandchips View Post

Larry, Buzz, zoyd;

3D - the calibration of.

Are there any tricks or a set formula to apply to a 2D calibration to help with 3D without being able to measure 3D with a meter?
The glasses obviously add a 'film' to which you view through, so I assume upping luminance is good. Default 3D has contrast up to 100, that can't be right, can it?

Any pointers or info/thoughts very welcome!

smile.gif
Once you set some 3d numbers let us know. I am still using your movie setting and really enjoying them.
post #872 of 2077
Yeah my calibrator put the Klein on the tripod as close as he could to the set with one side of the 3d glasses between the Klein and the screen
post #873 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Thanks buzz!

Here is a comparison plot between the 3 models that have been measured using these patterns which were specially designed to measure black level rise under real world conditions that ANSI patterns do not capture.

Pattern geometry, center area is video black:


How do the Panasonics behave with these patterns?
post #874 of 2077
post #875 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Hmm... I'm not sure, but I read a review somewhere (I don't know if this is accurate, as I know nothing, lol) where the reviewer/calibrator said that for watching tv over cable/satellite/etc ie:60i, you should use "Auto 1" as it was the mode that did correct 3:2 pulldown. Whatever that means and for whatever that's worth.

He also said to use Cinema Smooth for Blu Rays doing 24p.

I'll play with it and see. Thanks
post #876 of 2077
Quote:

I think the issue of floating blacks is not a significant deal based on the fact that the pupil is constricting when enough added luminance has entered the scene to impact black levels. IMO this is why most owners don't comment on it subsequent to a fix several updates ago that addressed it.

I know I don't see it. smile.gif
post #877 of 2077
I don't comment on whether one will see it or not, some will and some won't based on viewing habits and material. I just present the measurements.

Regarding the firmware updates, those were to fix the ragged ABL behavior at high/low luminance transitions and by all reports yes, they fixed that but floating blacks are an intrinsic and permanent way that Samsung has designed their panel drivers. All previous panels use it and the F-series is now verified to use it both pre and post recent FW revisions.
Edited by zoyd - 6/4/13 at 3:13pm
post #878 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 
Off screen is fine, and that's a fact. smile.gif

Okay thanks. I will try one sometime at the weekend hopefully smile.gif
post #879 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by caeguy View Post

Pie - Someone on here mentioned that your settings have a green tinge to it. Have you confirmed this and/or made any modifications to your settings?

I, too, saw a green tinge to flesh tones with those settings. I tried them out of curiosity. My display is calibrated and does not have this green tinge. I think the settings are specific to the panel calibrated, and I'm sure they look great on his display.
post #880 of 2077
^Interesting. Did you have the set professionally calibrated or you have your own meter?
post #881 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post


Here is a comparison plot between the 3 models that have been measured using these patterns which were specially designed to measure black level rise under real world conditions that ANSI patterns do not capture.

Pattern geometry, center area is video black:

Hi Zoyd,

please help me to understand. I tried to messure the floating black with ANSI pattern that has different APL level. And the results are totally different to those with Your pattern. Why do such ANSI pattern not reflect real world conditions, respectively why does the TV/panel respond so different on both pattern types. What's going on inside?

thanks in advance!
post #882 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post

Hi Zoyd,

please help me to understand. I tried to messure the floating black with ANSI pattern that has different APL level. And the results are totally different to those with Your pattern. Why do such ANSI pattern not reflect real world conditions, respectively why does the TV/panel respond so different on both pattern types. What's going on inside?

thanks in advance!

That's a very good question and I don't have a satisfactory answer as to why, although I can describe what is happening. With only two driving levels (white and black) in the ANSI patterns the panel does not need to initialize the pixels more than once (this is called pre-discharge) to hold peak white. But with the multiple driving levels present in my patterns and real video content, the pixels have to be initialized more than once to prevent misfires and this creates the black float.
post #883 of 2077
The followup question is is why isn't the same behavior exhibited on Panasonic PDPs?
post #884 of 2077
xrox would know the answer as it's buried in the physics of how the panels drive signals are engineered and I suspect that Panasonic's method hinders them from getting high light output, there are always trade-offs.
post #885 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I think the issue of floating blacks is not a significant deal based on the fact that the pupil is constricting when enough added luminance has entered the scene to impact black levels. IMO this is why most owners don't comment on it subsequent to a fix several updates ago that addressed it.

I know I don't see it. smile.gif

agreed. i guess if you wanted to argue the point(not sure why) you could even say since the eye becomes less sensitive to blacks when the screen brightens, a rising black to go with it might actually APPEAR more stable. a truly stable black might look like it gets darker...

for me, all i know is i like what i see on the f8500, i'm happy with it and hope it lasts me a long time.
post #886 of 2077
OT:
If you can´t notice black level difference with real content then why every review hype low MLL?
At some reviews I think it become most important thing for PQ.
post #887 of 2077
Black levels are important. But some people often overlook the fact that the 8500's MLL would have been class-leading in 2012. Even in 2013 they're visually very close to the ZT/VT in 95% of the material you see.

Add to that brightness that's orders of magnitude better than the VT/ZT and a much better controlled ABL that throttles back brightness much less than other plasmas, an increase in perceived sharpness and you can see there's more to PQ than just the 'best' MLL.

Reading some comments and reviews, you'd think a) people only watch movies b) people only watch dark movies and c) people watch no full-screen 16:9 material such as TV series (dramas, variety shows, sitcoms etc.) that even further push a TV's ABL behavior.

I watch all kinds of material and want my display to be an all-around performer. smile.gif
post #888 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Black levels are important. But some people often overlook the fact that the 8500's MLL would have been class-leading in 2012. Even in 2013 they're visually very close to the ZT/VT in 95% of the material you see.

Add to that brightness that's orders of magnitude better than the VT/ZT and a much better controlled ABL that throttles back brightness much less than other plasmas, an increase in perceived sharpness and you can see there's more to PQ than just the 'best' MLL.

Reading some comments and reviews, you'd think a) people only watch movies b) people only watch dark movies and c) people watch no full-screen 16:9 material such as TV series (dramas, variety shows, sitcoms etc.) that even further push a TV's ABL behavior.

I watch all kinds of material and want my display to be an all-around performer. smile.gif

I agree 100%

I had both sets side by side both playing the same bluray movie. Through 3 hours of watching The Dark Knight, I scanned from TV to TV every minute seeing which one I liked better. I was sick of doing it by the time I was done. From evening time with some light out still into the night. The 8500 was the winner to me. I agree 100% with Ken Ross.

The clarity / sharpness of the 8500 is noticeable. The ABL is much better on the 8500. I didn't notice much difference in black levels nor shadow details. My 8500's have buzzed like a bitch, but sitting below the set makes it much better. The ZT has fan noise to deal with.
post #889 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Black levels are important. But some people often overlook the fact that the 8500's MLL would have been class-leading in 2012. Even in 2013 they're visually very close to the ZT/VT in 95% of the material you see.

Add to that brightness that's orders of magnitude better than the VT/ZT and a much better controlled ABL that throttles back brightness much less than other plasmas, an increase in perceived sharpness and you can see there's more to PQ than just the 'best' MLL.

Reading some comments and reviews, you'd think a) people only watch movies b) people only watch dark movies and c) people watch no full-screen 16:9 material such as TV series (dramas, variety shows, sitcoms etc.) that even further push a TV's ABL behavior.

I watch all kinds of material and want my display to be an all-around performer. smile.gif
Couldn't have said it better. It's mind blowing to me people thinking black levels are everything. If that's the case, just put up a 65" piece of black cardboard and watch that. Much cheaper and the best black levels evaaaaar.

People seriously underestimate the F8500's black levels. Personally, I've never seen better. Including the Kuro, including the ZT60. My black levels are truly the best I've ever seen firsthand. Add that to incredible detail/sharpness/clarity, so much so it makes the Panny look blurry when viewing side by side (when up close)... brightness (mine it calibrated at ~40 ftl whereas the zt60 maxes out at 33 ftl), then better motion handling and the MUCH better ABL, and finally the fact the 8500 is half a thousand dollars cheaper and this really become a no-contest blowout, imho of course.

But keep worrying about a difference in black level that the normal person could not differentiate. Where it can only be detected on certain content, by professional calibrators in a 0 light environment., and even then, I doubt a human could honestly perceive the difference. I would love to see a blind test where both panels were hidden except for the screen only, where people, including "pros" came in and picked the best picture. I bet over 90+% would pick the 8500, minimum.
post #890 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

Couldn't have said it better. It's mind blowing to me people thinking black levels are everything. If that's the case, just put up a 65" piece of black cardboard and watch that. Much cheaper and the best black levels evaaaaar.

People seriously underestimate the F8500's black levels. Personally, I've never seen better. Including the Kuro, including the ZT60. My black levels are truly the best I've ever seen firsthand. Add that to incredible detail/sharpness/clarity, so much so it makes the Panny look blurry when viewing side by side (when up close)... brightness (mine it calibrated at ~40 ftl whereas the zt60 maxes out at 33 ftl), then better motion handling and the MUCH better ABL, and finally the fact the 8500 is half a thousand dollars cheaper and this really become a no-contest blowout, imho of course.

But keep worrying about a difference in black level that the normal person could not differentiate. Where it can only be detected on certain content, by professional calibrators in a 0 light environment., and even then, I doubt a human could honestly perceive the difference. I would love to see a blind test where both panels were hidden except for the screen only, where people, including "pros" came in and picked the best picture. I bet over 90+% would pick the 8500, minimum.

Have the 8500, IMO motion handling is ok, but I think Panasonic trumps it. To me the Panasonic seems a bit more fluid.
post #891 of 2077
Can someone comment on F8500 dither noise? I have spent couple of minutes watching F8500 in a local store today and the only thing I noticed bad was too much dither noise. Does Panasonic VT/ZT60 produce less dither noise than Samsung when talking motion? Any other motion artifacts comparison?
Thanks
post #892 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutotype View Post

Can someone comment on F8500 dither noise? I have spent couple of minutes watching F8500 in a local store today and the only thing I noticed bad was too much dither noise. Does Panasonic VT/ZT60 produce less dither noise than Samsung when talking motion? Any other motion artifacts comparison?
Thanks

The panasonics can produce more discrete luminance levels so they do not have to dither as much, although from normal viewing distance I can't tell the difference.
post #893 of 2077
Noticing some motion blur on fast paced sports like hockey and some action scenes -
Any suggestions?
post #894 of 2077
When using non-professional terms "pop" or "punch", what brings that wow-effect to picture, contrast ? smile.gif
I think my previous ST50 had that more than E8000 (both DIY calibrated) but when talking about overall performance E8000 seems to be better, and not least concerning burn-in which I suffered with ST50 (service changed panel once and when it burned-in again got moneys back).

At least HDTVtest with their reviews tells that IR is worse with Samsung and better with Panasonic than with 2012 models, do you agree? Is it problem with F8500?
post #895 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

POST CALIBRATION:



PRE CALIBRATION:

AppleMark

POST CALIBRATION SETTINGS:



Calibrated at 39.4fl

Again, I would like to know if for sure I have a bad tv. The fact I got 2 bad ones in a row would be quite upsetting! Especially considering I'm out almost half a thousand dollars in calibration fees, not to mention taking an entire day off work, wasted on this tv getting it isf calibrated. Not to mention I probably won't be able to schedule Doug Weil from Clearly Resolved to calibrate a new tv again for quite some time. In fact, I will be flat out pissed off. 2 bad tv's in a row... mad.gif

I really like these calibrations. I feel like there is alot more pop to it (maybe a little bit on some scenes). With these settings, have you noticed that on some movies the flesh tones seem inconsistent? Maybe it just the way that the movie was shot....but I was watching Iron Man 2, and the skin tones seemed odd.

Have you modified or changed your settings since this post?

Thanks
post #896 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Make73 View Post

At least HDTVtest with their reviews tells that IR is worse with Samsung and better with Panasonic than with 2012 models, do you agree? Is it problem with F8500?

Absolutely not a problem with the F8500. I've noticed IR during regular TV viewing twice, and it disappeared in less than a second. I notice most of the IR when I have my PC connected, because I'll leave up a webpage or iTunes or pitchfork or pandora for a while, (5 mins here, 20 mins there) on a static page. For fun, I'll then bring up a fullscreen white slide on youtube or something, and I can see most of the logos, boxes, tiles, graphics, of whatever was on the website or application that I left up. BUT, it seriously goes away within a few seconds. That's when I consciously try to look for and analyze IR. When going from webpage to webpage or webpage to itunes, leaving each up for minutes at a time, I don't really notice any IR unless I look for it, and the IR I notice is gone within a couple seconds. I also played Borderlands 2 for a couple hours, and then pulled up a white screen, and the IR was gone within a minute.This plasma gets rid of IR ridiculously fast, and you should not worry about it at all on this model smile.gif
post #897 of 2077
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgeh2o View Post

Absolutely not a problem with the F8500. I've noticed IR during regular TV viewing twice, and it disappeared in less than a second. I notice most of the IR when I have my PC connected, because I'll leave up a webpage or iTunes or pitchfork or pandora for a while, (5 mins here, 20 mins there) on a static page. For fun, I'll then bring up a fullscreen white slide on youtube or something, and I can see most of the logos, boxes, tiles, graphics, of whatever was on the website or application that I left up. BUT, it seriously goes away within a few seconds. That's when I consciously try to look for and analyze IR. When going from webpage to webpage or webpage to itunes, leaving each up for minutes at a time, I don't really notice any IR unless I look for it, and the IR I notice is gone within a couple seconds. I also played Borderlands 2 for a couple hours, and then pulled up a white screen, and the IR was gone within a minute.This plasma gets rid of IR ridiculously fast, and you should not worry about it at all on this model smile.gif

I agree, IR becomes less of an issue the more you run the TV. IR used to stay on there for a few mins if you abused it, but now I can watch a 2+h widescreen movie....then click on the scrolling bars and it is gone in 30 sec or less. Don't worry about IR.
post #898 of 2077
i hate to keep beating the dead horse, but i think the reason black levels are talked about so much is because it's the one aspect of good picture quality that is most often lacking in todays displays. most of the other characteristics that make for a good picture are handled well and less noticeable when they aren't.

i'll you this much, for me, i don't care what the reviews say about color. i've never seen a tv that had 'bad color' to my eyes. so that's not very high up on my list when comparing. personal preferences obviously come into play, but i think we'd agree that inexpensive sets with good color are more common than inexpensive sets with good black levels and contrast
post #899 of 2077
CNET article comparing input lag of multiple tv's. Not looking good for our baby http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57587317-221/game-mode-on-cnet-tests-tvs-for-input-lag/
post #900 of 2077
The Samsungs have a better "Game Mode":
Quote:
Like many current Samsung HDTVs, the Samsung PS64F8500 has a “Game Mode” that’s best avoided because, while it cuts input lag, it doesn’t do so to a sufficient extent to give a really satisfying gaming experience.

Fortunately, selecting “PC” as the input label for the HDMI input to which your games console (or PC) is connected cuts input lag down to a satisfying level – the semi-hidden PC mode is a better game mode than the “Game Mode” is. Our Leo Bodnar lag tester reported the 64F8500′s fastest mode as lagging by 64ms, which is a decent, but not class-leading level. Our old CRT+camera measurement method resulted in a reading of 38ms, while we’re running both measurement methods.

Source: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ps64f8500-201305012945.htm?page=Performance
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