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Vinyl LP'S vs CD'S - Page 2

post #31 of 75
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the time taken to post this comprehensive explanation. I am not sure if you missed one more point I wanted to clarify. - Stereo and Quad- what do these words mean.
post #32 of 75
Stereo is 2- channel

Quad is 4- channel

There were several Quad formats way back when such as Quadraphonic QS, SQ (both matrixed), CD-4 and UD-4 (both discrete). None are compatible with each other, require different needles, different processor AND different speaker configurations.
post #33 of 75
Thread Starter 
So do you mean that a quad unit would be more suitable for an exusting 5.1 stereo system than hooking a stereo type turntable into it?
post #34 of 75
Hi Darrel,
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrelsilva View Post

So do you mean that a quad unit would be more suitable for an exusting 5.1 stereo system than hooking a stereo type turntable into it?
No, A quad unit would be more suitable for playing a quadraphonic record. As David said, there were multiple formats of quad, all incompatible. Nobody makes quad vinyl albums today (as far as I know).

There is one esoteric use for a quad turntable. The difference in a quad turntable is that the cartridge is sensitive up to around 50kHz (to read the sub-carrier). If you want to digitize a normal vinyl album, and you use a quad cartridge to digitize up to 48khz, a DSP algorithm can more easily recognize the scratches in the vinyl by their above-20kHz energy content. But that would be a topic of a very different thread.
post #35 of 75
No, get a stereo turntable. All of the quad formats are already dead and finding the music for them are nearly impossible.

For more info on Quadraphonic turntable and tape format, I found this:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadraphonic_sound


Hope it helps a bit.
post #36 of 75
Thread Starter 
That's very valuable information for me. Thanks a lot
post #37 of 75
Thread Starter 
Have you heard of a turntable called Neotech NTT100. It is available at a second hand shop for 300 AUS Dollars and the man says that its a very high end unit.
post #38 of 75
Hi Darrel,

Are you sure it is Neotech? I'm aware of Neotech making accessories for musical instruments (cables mainly), but not a turntable. Googling either "Neotech" or "NTT100" came up with nothing. Nothing turned up in the VinylEngine database as well.

If it is really a high-end turntable, I would expect VinylEngine to know about it.
post #39 of 75
Quote:
Have you heard of a turntable called Neotech NTT100. It is available at a second hand shop for 300 AUS Dollars and the man says that its a very high end unit.

Someone is pulling something - your hard earned money out of your pocket and you legs.
Never heard of it (and I heard and read about a lot of TTs, esoteric and otherwise) and nothing, like nada, zilch, zip, zero null on google search.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Audio-Technica-LP120-USB-Turntable?sc=2&category=46

seems to be based on the technics sl1200, at least a well known and well regarded TT

http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Budget-Turntables
Edited by kraut - 5/3/13 at 2:13am
post #40 of 75
Thread Starter 
Hi mark i see you online now. We have a garage sale and i see 2 TTables there. Pl tell me in your opinion if any one of these are of any good.
JVC JL A20
Technics SL B2
post #41 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrelsilva View Post

Hi mark i see you online now. We have a garage sale and i see 2 TTables there. Pl tell me in your opinion if any one of these are of any good.
JVC JL A20
Technics SL B2
Nothing special belt drive semi autos from the 70's or 80's. Decent starter TT's but don't pay more than $20 if working correctly and as with all TT purchases, assume the stylus is toast and it will need a set up.

I'd still suggest looking for a Technics DD.

Darrel, I gather you're in Aus. Where?
Edited by A9X-308 - 5/3/13 at 5:45pm
post #42 of 75
Thread Starter 
Thanks. He is selling for 60. I have decided not to go with bith models following your advise. Will wait few more days. Yes im from launceston tasmania.
post #43 of 75
Yaaay! A fellow Aussie!
post #44 of 75
Hi Darrel,
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrelsilva View Post

Hi mark i see you online now. We have a garage sale and i see 2 TTables there. Pl tell me in your opinion if any one of these are of any good.
JVC JL A20
Technics SL B2
Fortunately, Alpha-Niner chimed in, because he can answer that better than I can. I've had a very good turntable since the early eighties (I now have four of them), so i haven't been following turntables much since. I knew a lot about them back in the 70s.

But if you are looking for a vintage table, you can get an awful lot of bang for your Australian buck. You just need to be a little more careful, as there won't be a very good warranty. Here are some general thoughts:

Like A9X-308, I would look for a direct-drive. Although many people today prefer belt-drive, the good direct-drives of the pre-CD days were better than anything made since. However, the bad direct-drives were worse than any belt-drive. The trick is to pick one that is north of the belt, and not south.

Cartridges have improved, so you may want to upgrade the cartridge on whatever you get. If you determine that the cartridge is fine, you still want to replace the stylus, as A pointed out.

Technics is a good brand, as is Dual, Gerrard and Sansui (and others I can't remember). But don't judge by brand alone. Sansui made some of the greatest turntables, but also made some of the worst.

Be partial toward ones that have a strobe, as that is how you can tell if it is still working correctly. If the table cannot "lock" onto 33 1/3 rpm, pass it up. It will likely be expensive to fix.

Look online for good pictures of anything you are considering, and compare to be sure nothing is missing. One of my Sansui TTs came missing a little nylon cord, which rendered the anti-skate inoperable. The fact that it was missing was clearly visible, but I wasn't paying attention.

Be prepared to check the cartridge alignment, and to adjust it if need be. You can download alignment protractors from VinylEngine.

I will post more if I think of anything else.
post #45 of 75
Thread Starter 
Thanks mark. One doubt though. What does one mean by "vintage" ttt.
post #46 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by darrelsilva View Post

Thanks mark. One doubt though. What does one mean by "vintage" ttt.
Well, Darrel, one might equate "vintage" to "old". But I'm not one.

There was a time after the CD became popular when nobody made turntables anymore, because nobody was pressing vinyl albums anymore (profit margins were much higher on CDs). It was only this century that vinyl had its resurgence.

So I consider anything made prior to the "death-of-vinyl" as "vintage", and anything made after the "resurrection-of-vinyl" as "modern". So anything not made in the past 15 years is vintage.

There are some very good modern turntables, however, they are much more expensive then comparable vintage turntables were. That's because you don't have the economies of scale that you had prior to the CD, when everyone had a turntable. The net result is that the technology isn't being advanced like it used to be. As an example, none of the modern turntables are direct-drive, since vinyl is now a niche market. You can't justify the costs of the engineering and tooling involved in direct-drive system. From a technical standpoint, belt-drive is simple and reliable, but it doesn't exactly push the envelope.
post #47 of 75
Thread Starter 
Today I borrowed a TT from my neighbor just to test how it could be connected to my Denon AVR-1709. I didn't have a pre-amp so i used AUX as well as CD in. I had to crank up the volume to almost max to hear - but yet didn't hear well. Now my question is this, please advice. What I hear even after cranking volume on the Denon was of poor music quality. No Bass at all only trebles but nowhere near of a CD.
Will this be different " had i used a Pre-Amp". Will a pre-amp make a difference?
post #48 of 75
Yes. What you need is a phono pre-amp.
post #49 of 75
The phono preamp not only boosts the signal, but also applies equalization to bring the bass back up. The amplitude of lower frequencies were purposely reduced so as to reduce the required size of the record groove.
post #50 of 75
As David said, you need a phono preamp. A MM cartridge puts out about 5mV and a MC about 200uV whereas a CDP is 2V. Signals when recorded onto an LP are also extensively equalised to reduce groove width/depth at LF and to increase it at HF to give a useable signal to noise and playing time.

The image below shows the pre recording EQ (green) and the replay EQ (red).

post #51 of 75
Thread Starter 
Ok - there is a TT available for 75 Aus $. The owner called me now to say that the Model is Sony PS-LX250H.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/317051-REG/Sony_PSLX250H_PS_LX250H_Turntable.html

Has a pre-amp that can be put on or off.

Is this a reasonably good one?

Is it possible to swtich the inbuilt pre-amp to OFF and hook it to a BETTER pre-amp and then to my Denon AVR?
Edited by darrelsilva - 5/4/13 at 9:07pm
post #52 of 75
Hi Darrel,

Don't do it! This turntable is about as bad as it gets. It has been brought up before in this and other forums (mainly because it's so cheap).

First, you are stuck with the cartridge that comes with it, which is not considered very good. Even if you managed to remove the cartridge and glue on a new one, there is no counterweight adjustment, so the arm can't be balanced. There have been complaints of it not running at the right speed (too fast, to be specific) and having a lot of rumble (poor table bearings). I came across it in a housewares shop a few weeks ago, and felt it was very light and flimsy. Other than that, it seems ok.

But what could you expect for $75? I have not shopped, but others have said that $200 is the minimum cost of the current crop of turntables. That is why I recommend vintage.
post #53 of 75
Thread Starter 
Thank you for that valuable advise. I will post here anything that i come across. I hope i am not asking too much from our fellow mates for their opinion since i am nowhere to gauge a good one from a bad.
post #54 of 75
Not much to add at this point other than to ditto Mark's last couple of posts. Please feel free to post what you can find and we'll respond with what advice we can.
Keep an eye out on sleazebay too and if you don't want to post and tip someone else off, PM me.

Reading back through the thread, I see kraut suggested the AT LP120: these can be had new for under $300 delivered in Oz. I have no personal experience of it, but if it's half as good as an SL1200, it's excellent. Reviews seem pretty positive too and it has an inbuilt phono pre (you don't need to use the ADC and USB). This is just inside your budget and saves the lucky dip of buying something secondhand.
post #55 of 75
good grade, original recording vinyl is always better. trash vinyl just sucks. that another reason vinyl is better because you actually have to inspect your record or make sure you get good records. with CDs you pretty much get the same thing in each one.

each LP has its own personality, and i like that. its all part of the experience.

plus, vinyl has a richer, more refined sound. CDs are really clean, but sound a little harsh to me
post #56 of 75
kind of interesting to argue a format is superior because it often is crappy so you have to do additional QC before ou acquire an example of it . . .
post #57 of 75
yes, because its more of an elusive thing you have to hunt for and its more rewarding to finally find that LP,

when it is good quality vinyl vs cd, vinyl wins.
post #58 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotInvolved View Post

good grade, original recording vinyl is always better.
Bollocks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotInvolved View Post

trash vinyl just sucks.
I agree with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotInvolved View Post

that another reason vinyl is better because you actually have to inspect your record or make sure you get good records.
If you think you can determine anything except gross damage by looking at an LP with the naked eye (or even a loupe), you're deluded. You certainly can't tell a good pressing by eye and if it's simply dirty from poor storage or pressing residue, you should actually be giving the disc a good wash before use, so that solves that problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotInvolved View Post

with CDs you pretty much get the same thing in each one.
And that is bad, how? Getting what you actually want, first time with no hassle?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotInvolved View Post

each LP has its own personality
Anthropomorphising a bit much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotInvolved View Post

plus, vinyl has a richer, more refined sound. CDs are really clean, but sound a little harsh to me
LP is dirtier, noisier, has mono bass for the most part and as everything has been recorded digitally for about 20 years, you're still listening to digital, with the added mess of LP's defects on top. That must be what 'richer' means to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotInvolved View Post

yes, because its more of an elusive thing you have to hunt for and its more rewarding to finally find that LP,
Exactly the same thing can be done with CDs, especially if looking for the best versions. But if you're not the collector type that likes to loiter hours in shops (physically or online) and just want to hear the music, it's fairly moot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotInvolved View Post

when it is good quality vinyl vs cd, vinyl wins.
Bollocks.
The only time LP wins universally over CD is when that recording never made it to CD in the first place. I have many of those in my collection.
post #59 of 75
ok then. you could of just said you like cds better.
post #60 of 75
i mostly own records that were recorded before digital.(with a few newer ones)
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