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NE Spring Speaker Shootout results thread - April 13, 2013 - Page 6

post #151 of 568
edited....
Edited by buddhamus - 4/16/13 at 8:19am
post #152 of 568
Wow that was not fun to be two days behind on the thread. I am caught up now, but I promise to have a full review here in the near future. I just haven't had the time after that long weekend to really break everythin down and compile the notes I made. With that said, I dood manage to get the LS's back out of my car finally last night. That was fun to do solo.
post #153 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

The LS6 speakers are rated at 90 dB so they aren't as efficient as one would think. They also contain a bass management board on the inside of the crossover access cover. The board has a LCR circuit that allows one to attenuate the bass starting at 70 Hz. There is more attenuation for a small room and less for a large room. There are 5 settings available. Does anyone know what setting was used for the GTG?


I had them on the medium room setting, which is the highest I have ever set it. There is no way they would measure close to flat in the LF region with the jumper any higher, in Andrew's room or in my room without a doubt. I don't know about the "attenuation" factor but having them set at large-room I would guess would have a ridiculously boosted low-end compared to the highs. I in fact last night bumped the jumper back down to "small" and it appeared to regain a little more efficiency. Measuring, I always had the flattest results in my theater with the jumper on
small-medium.

Many have already voiced it, that the LS's needed more power (a lot more), and they were the last speaker we demo'd before lunch break so people were getting somewhat antsy, but no excuses here, I was glad to have them be a part of the g2g and people all seemed quite impressed by them. I know they had a lot more in the tank, and Andrew and the few of us left were discussing pulling them back down and throwing them on the EP, but they were already in my car, and hauling them up the hill that last time was enough for me, haha.
post #154 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post

Having second thoughts on selling the SVS PB13 Ultra.

I do lot's of buying and selling. Not just audio. Got a John Deere 755 4x4 compact diesel tractor going up shortly.

Also finally unloading all the stuff I accumulated over the early days of my audio spending. Some Carver stuff that I have a guy already saying he wants to pick up on Wed.
My 1971 Bose 901's Series one with EQ with the upgraded the caps.

Basically clean out stuff.

Yea thanks for all your help.... another diversion in my ADHD life

No problem Mike. We're experts at spending other peoples money. tongue.gif Now comes the fun part - deciding what to get.
post #155 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I had them on the medium room setting, which is the highest I have ever set it. There is no way they would measure close to flat in the LF region with the jumper any higher, in Andrew's room or in my room without a doubt. I don't know about the "attenuation" factor but having them set at large-room I would guess would have a ridiculously boosted low-end compared to the highs. I in fact last night bumped the jumper back down to "small" and it appeared to regain a little more efficiency. Measuring, I always had the flattest results in my theater with the jumper on
small-medium.

Many have already voiced it, that the LS's needed more power (a lot more), and they were the last speaker we demo'd before lunch break so people were getting somewhat antsy, but no excuses here, I was glad to have them be a part of the g2g and people all seemed quite impressed by them. I know they had a lot more in the tank, and Andrew and the few of us left were discussing pulling them back down and throwing them on the EP, but they were already in my car, and hauling them up the hill that last time was enough for me, haha.



This is the curve that i received from Danny at GR-Research, for the settings to the bass module.
Quote:
It will lower the bass output with a centering frequency of about 70Hz and will have a first order roll on each side of it. So the lowest octave from about 35Hz and down is hardly effected.
i inquired about stacking more resistors onto it.
post #156 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I had them on the medium room setting, which is the highest I have ever set it. There is no way they would measure close to flat in the LF region with the jumper any higher, in Andrew's room or in my room without a doubt. I don't know about the "attenuation" factor but having them set at large-room I would guess would have a ridiculously boosted low-end compared to the highs. I in fact last night bumped the jumper back down to "small" and it appeared to regain a little more efficiency. Measuring, I always had the flattest results in my theater with the jumper on small-medium.
Thanks. Mine have always been on medium since I can't get the access panel open on one speaker. I will need to remove the lower woofer, reach in, and push out the access panel. I should probably mount a cabinet handle on it. Even at medium the bass measures a little too high, although that then puts the lowest dip the same as the rest of the speaker. The peaks then just need to be pulled down a little.
post #157 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicators View Post

Get a S2 and never look back smile.gif

After hearing both the S2's and the Caps in Andrews room, I prefer the Caps personally. I haven't had a chance to compare back to back, but if my "audio memory" serves me correctly, the dual Caps may have had a slight output advantage at port tune and PLENTY of mid-bass slam. The S2's dig a whole lot deeper, but I would venture to say that there might have been maybe 3-4 people at the GTG that would be even remotely interested in chasing single digit output. I remember the Caps being very musical for a ported sub as well. The S2's sounded incredible, but it seems like the advantages of a S2 vs a Cap would be minimal to the 16hz - 80Hz crowd... Just my .02.

Then again, I'm not sure if the S2's were pushed to their limits...

biggrin.gif

I've been working on my write up and plan to get something posted up tomorrow (hopefully).
post #158 of 568
gotta remember how hot we were running the caps at the sub G2G. im not sure we had the S2s that hot. I loved the S2s they just seemed limitless
post #159 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

gotta remember how hot we were running the caps at the sub G2G. im not sure we had the S2s that hot. I loved the S2s they just seemed limitless

That must be it... Still, I can't recommend the S2 over the Cap's based on what I've heard so far. Win/Win for anyone picking up either of those animals, but my take away was that the Cap was pretty much on par with the S2's where most people would really care. I only have that one experience with each, so maybe someone else with extended time with the Cap's and S2's can weigh in?

Or maybe we could hear it from the man himself. Thoughts Jeff?

Damnit... I know this wasn't a sub shootout... I told myself to NOT focus on the subs....so hard...
post #160 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Did you guys let each speaker owner or manufacturer come a day early and completely optimize their speakers for placement, height, crossover frequency, crossover slopes (high and low pass), bass EQ, stereo or mono bass, sweet spot listening position and use high quality DACs with balanced output to powerful monoblock amps? eek.gifbiggrin.gif The Iowa GTG seeks to provide a listening venue that far surpasses RMAF and provides the ultimate insight into a speaker's capability.
Looks like I have a flight to catch. However, in the end the Noesis and Cat 12's will just be the Kings anyway biggrin.gif
Edited by Reefdvr27 - 4/16/13 at 11:52am
post #161 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

That must be it... Still, I can't recommend the S2 over the Cap's based on what I've heard so far. Win/Win for anyone picking up either of those animals, but my take away was that the Cap was pretty much on par with the S2's where most people would really care. I only have that one experience with each, so maybe someone else with extended time with the Cap's and S2's can weigh in?

Or maybe we could hear it from the man himself. Thoughts Jeff?

Damnit... I know this wasn't a sub shootout... I told myself to NOT focus on the subs....so hard...

Not Jeff (obviously wink.gif) but in the past he has said the OS trumps all and I concur.

Of course, there is that little issue of the Obit Shifters looking like a small refrigerator tongue.gif
post #162 of 568
I got a few PM's now..and wanted to clarify a few things...

Whenever you get this many people together "group think" starts to happen and is formed in large part by the more dynamic and charismatic people in the group.

A large chunk of these guys are self admitted "sub guys"... Their emphasis was more on HT than Music...yes we only listened to music for our evaluations buts HT application seemed to be where the majority were envisioning the speakers..not for two channel music.

I am generalizing here and putting my own impressions / spin on things...so bear that in mind.

Loud = better ...and if the next county over can hear your play list without distortion than that is a damn good speaker...

None of this is "wrong" thinking...there is no right..

Just when the emphasis on the Cat's and Neosis is given ...it is not that their praise is undeserved....it is that it is slightly over emphasized due to HT and Loud is better way of thinking...

Cat's are one of a small group of powered speakers... Neosis are excellent speakers but there are many that can match or better them... Not very many could match or better them running +25 over reference though... tongue.gif

Please correct my impressions if they didn't seem that way to other attendees but some of the questions I am getting all center around why are the Cat's and Neosis so much better than everything else. I boiled it down to mean that although at normal levels they are very good..there are allot that can compete...at + Reference levels they don't loose anything and probably gain a little in sound stage etc...thats why everyone there is so keen. For many people though playing at plus reference levels is almost never done.

Anyway... I want to stress again this is my take on things...please pipe in if you think these impressions are wrong.
post #163 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Did you guys let each speaker owner or manufacturer come a day early and completely optimize their speakers for placement, height, crossover frequency, crossover slopes (high and low pass), bass EQ, stereo or mono bass, sweet spot listening position and use high quality DACs with balanced output to powerful monoblock amps?

Friday we drank all kinds of beer, ate steaks and hoagies for lunch and oxtail stew, went out to dinner at Duffers in the evening. Cut some stuff out of the music tracks, drank all kinds of beer.
Sat we drank more and had more home made oxtail stew and ended up with $450 worth of pizza for dinner... more great beer varieties.

In between we listened to some speakers.
post #164 of 568
Guys this sounds awesome! Glad you had fun. I don't see how one can't! Anyways, if the Mrs. ever leaves with kids for a couple of days I will have a GTG. I usually don't see what speakers or subs play louder cleaner, I always test which sound best at reference, period. There is not another setting for me, even when listening to music all I do is change the mode and leave the volume which usually is around 105 dBs, depending on the recording. I don't even have a remote for volume, if I have to turn it down or up I get up and go in another room. I am glad the little S8 did well, proves that at reference one probably does not need so much speaker especially with 4 18's to fill in the bottom. To me I don't care which speaker can play 140 dBs in room, I care which plays 105 dBs peaks the best. The subs need more grunt because I run them hot. I need to get one of these going except my room is much smaller and built for 7, I guess I could squeeze more in the room but all 7 will have a seat that sounds similar. I could open the doors and setup the hall which connects it but not good to listen to anything critically.

Again, good stuff, I just wish people don't take these things to heart as which is the best for them because there is just to much variation in seating position, setup, etc... This is a great way to get a feel for sound signatures and such.
post #165 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post

Friday we drank all kinds of beer, ate steaks and hoagies for lunch and oxtail stew, went out to dinner at Duffers in the evening. Cut some stuff out of the music tracks, drank all kinds of beer.
Sat we drank more and had more home made oxtail stew and ended up with $450 worth of pizza for dinner... more great beer varieties.

In between we listened to some speakers.

Mike, you forgot about when we drank beer biggrin.gif
post #166 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Please correct my impressions if they didn't seem that way to other attendees but some of the questions I am getting all center around why are the Cat's and Neosis so much better than everything else. I boiled it down to mean that although at normal levels they are very good..there are allot that can compete...at + Reference levels they don't loose anything and probably gain a little in sound stage etc...thats why everyone there is so keen. For many people though playing at plus reference levels is almost never done.

Your impressions can't be wrong because, well, they're your own impressions. They can differ from others, but there's no way they could be incorrect. Impressions and opinions are essentially the same, and unique to the individual. That being said...

Your assessment is similar to many others with regards to "the big boys". Volume/output are their domain, so for people who want big sound - or have big rooms - the Cat's and Noesis are for you. Thankfully they aren't merely implements of mass destruction, because they have surprisingly good detail and soundstage. For people who want to have statement pieces they should be high on the priority list, that's for certain.
post #167 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I got a few PM's now..and wanted to clarify a few things...

Whenever you get this many people together "group think" starts to happen and is formed in large part by the more dynamic and charismatic people in the group.

A large chunk of these guys are self admitted "sub guys"... Their emphasis was more on HT than Music...yes we only listened to music for our evaluations buts HT application seemed to be where the majority were envisioning the speakers..not for two channel music.

I am generalizing here and putting my own impressions / spin on things...so bear that in mind.

Loud = better ...and if the next county over can hear your play list without distortion than that is a damn good speaker...

None of this is "wrong" thinking...there is no right..

Just when the emphasis on the Cat's and Neosis is given ...it is not that their praise is undeserved....it is that it is slightly over emphasized due to HT and Loud is better way of thinking...

Cat's are one of a small group of powered speakers... Neosis are excellent speakers but there are many that can match or better them... Not very many could match or better them running +25 over reference though... tongue.gif

Please correct my impressions if they didn't seem that way to other attendees but some of the questions I am getting all center around why are the Cat's and Neosis so much better than everything else. I boiled it down to mean that although at normal levels they are very good..there are allot that can compete...at + Reference levels they don't loose anything and probably gain a little in sound stage etc...thats why everyone there is so keen. For many people though playing at plus reference levels is almost never done.

Anyway... I want to stress again this is my take on things...please pipe in if you think these impressions are wrong.

Good points all ... having heard the Cats (several times) and owning the Noesis, they are both excellent speakers for HT and music. I would caveat that by saying multi-channel music.

If I were doing a two channel system I would not select either of these speakers. For me multi-channel music = concert and I want concert level performance. Same with movies as I tend to like action flicks and I want the system to do reference level effortlessly.

For me, two channel listening is much more intimate so full range speakers at listenable volume, a comfortable chair and an adult beverage are the accouterments. Of course others have a very different take on this and this is one of those situations where two things can be equally true.

Great job on the reviews guys ... smile.gif
post #168 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

After hearing both the S2's and the Caps in Andrews room, I prefer the Caps personally. I haven't had a chance to compare back to back, but if my "audio memory" serves me correctly, the dual Caps may have had a slight output advantage at port tune and PLENTY of mid-bass slam. The S2's dig a whole lot deeper, but I would venture to say that there might have been maybe 3-4 people at the GTG that would be even remotely interested in chasing single digit output. I remember the Caps being very musical for a ported sub as well. The S2's sounded incredible, but it seems like the advantages of a S2 vs a Cap would be minimal to the 16hz - 80Hz crowd... Just my .02.

Then again, I'm not sure if the S2's were pushed to their limits...

biggrin.gif

I've been working on my write up and plan to get something posted up tomorrow (hopefully).

You haven't seen what S2s are capable of because there were no bass-heavy movie tracks in our selection.

Here is the (audyssey corrected) frequency response of a single S2 at my MLP (which is about 9.5 feet away from the sub). The measurements were taken using a professionally calibrated UMM-6.



My room is similar in size to Andrew's and it opens to the rest of the house. I barely utilize 30-35% of the power and the S2 shakes the room (not the couch!). On FOTP plane crash scene at -10, you will feel that the room is rolling over when the airplane rolls over. Some family friends were watching WOTW and I was taking a shower upstairs. I literally felt that a subway was passing under me.

As per Jeff, it's below 20 Hz output is twice as much as an Orbit Shifter, and above 20 Hz is half as much as an Orbit Shifter. I am sure that it's > 20 Hz output is at-least comparable to a ported cap if not more.

Need I say more? smile.gif
post #169 of 568
Thread Starter 
^We did run through a number of the clips from the October Sub GTG at the end of the night on Saturday. Some of these were brutal including an up-down and down-up sine wave at some serious volumes. We also ran through 3-4 of the popular Scuba Steve demo disc clips (FOTP, Hulk, BHD, etc). I thought they sounded great. Output seemed very close to my ported passive Caps but with obviously more below 15hz.

I'm kind of bummed I didn't get to demo my Silverbacks for you guys.....I think they would have turned some heads. biggrin.gif oops, guess we need another event. biggrin.gif
post #170 of 568
is it known what drivers are used in the Single 8s?
post #171 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

^We did run through a number of the clips from the October Sub GTG at the end of the night on Saturday. Some of these were brutal including an up-down and down-up sine wave at some serious volumes. We also ran through 3-4 of the popular Scuba Steve demo disc clips (FOTP, Hulk, BHD, etc). I thought they sounded great. Output seemed very close to my ported passive Caps but with obviously more below 15hz.

I'm kind of bummed I didn't get to demo my Silverbacks for you guys.....I think they would have turned some heads. biggrin.gif oops, guess we need another event. biggrin.gif

Start planning smile.gif
post #172 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

is it known what drivers are used in the Single 8s?

Jeff mentioned to me that he is using a new and very expensive driver in the new S8.

Not sure about the exact details though. You may want to drop him a note.
post #173 of 568
>20hz output does not belong to the S2 over the ported cap across the board. Jeff will hopefully weigh in. I can't recall what he has said, but output is FR related and not just that one is superior to the other across the sub frequency band.
post #174 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

^We did run through a number of the clips from the October Sub GTG at the end of the night on Saturday. Some of these were brutal including an up-down and down-up sine wave at some serious volumes. We also ran through 3-4 of the popular Scuba Steve demo disc clips (FOTP, Hulk, BHD, etc). I thought they sounded great. Output seemed very close to my ported passive Caps but with obviously more below 15hz.

I'm kind of bummed I didn't get to demo my Silverbacks for you guys.....I think they would have turned some heads. biggrin.gif oops, guess we need another event. biggrin.gif

I can bring down 16 Daytons, your 8, Sibuna's 2, and anyone elses....this way we can see if 32 18"ers with 50kw could knock down your house biggrin.gif

What the hey...through Austin's 16 SI's in there two with another clone
post #175 of 568
no idea what it is but he said it could take all of 1800 watts and not have it be an issue. which is pretty insane
post #176 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

>20hz output does not belong to the S2 over the ported cap across the board. Jeff will hopefully weigh in. I can't recall what he has said, but output is FR related and not just that one is superior to the other across the sub frequency band.

See post 10 at:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1399630/captivator-s2-vs-orbit-shifter

"The Captivator S2 has about 6db more output capability below 20hz however the Orbit Shifter has about 6db more output capability above 20hz. The difference of 6db is the same as adding a secound subwoofer."
post #177 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Again, good stuff, I just wish people don't take these things to heart as which is the best for them because there is just to much variation in seating position, setup, etc... This is a great way to get a feel for sound signatures and such.

+1

I hope nothing from this GTG gets a bad rap on the forum for off aix response or anything else. Sitting off axis and on the floor isn't a good way to give any kind of thoughts on a speaker and I hope no one researching on what to buy takes its any more serious than just a crazy audio party.
post #178 of 568
logicators,

Have you heard the ported caps? Jeff told avsforum member toymachyne that if it was max output he wanted in a big room he should stick to a pair of Cap 2400 or a pair of Orbit Shifter over a pair of s2 - from what toymachyne told me. Hopefully Jeff will chime in and clear up the why, what, circumstances of the whole thing.

I've heard both s1, s2, cap pro, and orbit shifters on multiple occassions each in multiple rooms. They each are a bit different - but when eq'ed properly do sound more alike than dissimilar - despite their design differences.

yet...

The drivers in the ported cap and orbit shifter are the same. The drivers in the S1 and S2 are different. As I understand it - the magnet in the OS and ported cap has a stronger magnet structure than the driver used in the sealed setup because the sealed driver can rely on the sealed enclosure to help control the driver. So it isn't just that a S2 has two cap driver and has to be louder. There is driver difference and likely max performance differences to a (unknown by me) degree.

I'd submit that passive caps powered properly and provisioned EQ are a fantastic and slightly cheaper alternative for someone who is a bit of a learned enthusiast.
post #179 of 568
No i have not, and I am sure that what you are saying is correct (you have far more subwoofer experience than myself smile.gif).

I was just relaying what Jeff said in the other thread.

To me, it's an academic discussion because I could never hit the limits of my S2. I live in a townhouse and I will get into serious trouble with my wife, neighbors, and cops (in that order smile.gif) if I push it any harder.
post #180 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

is it known what drivers are used in the Single 8s?

Jeff told me they were a modified BMS driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

^We did run through a number of the clips from the October Sub GTG at the end of the night on Saturday. Some of these were brutal including an up-down and down-up sine wave at some serious volumes. We also ran through 3-4 of the popular Scuba Steve demo disc clips (FOTP, Hulk, BHD, etc). I thought they sounded great. Output seemed very close to my ported passive Caps but with obviously more below 15hz.

I'm kind of bummed I didn't get to demo my Silverbacks for you guys.....I think they would have turned some heads. biggrin.gif oops, guess we need another event. biggrin.gif

I can bring down 16 Daytons, your 8, Sibuna's 2, and anyone elses....this way we can see if 32 18"ers with 50kw could knock down your house biggrin.gif

What the hey...through Austin's 16 SI's in there two with another clone

Just make it 40 total and I can load up my 8. They take up about as much space as the Arrays did biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Again, good stuff, I just wish people don't take these things to heart as which is the best for them because there is just to much variation in seating position, setup, etc... This is a great way to get a feel for sound signatures and such.

+1

I hope nothing from this GTG gets a bad rap on the forum for off aix response or anything else. Sitting off axis and on the floor isn't a good way to give any kind of thoughts on a speaker and I hope no one researching on what to buy takes its any more serious than just a crazy audio party.

Most if not all of us got to sit/kneel/stand at or near the sweet spot for several of the speakers, with certain attendees adjusing their position during the listening sessions to make sure they were on axis if they weren't. From my regular seat behind the couch on a barstool I can confidently say I was pretty darn close to on-axis for every pair of speakers we listened to. I certainly don't think any company or product is going to get "beat-down" from any reviews here. I can without a doubt attest to the fact that every single speaker we demoed that day would fit well in just about any audioholic's setup, it was just the small nuances that differentiated one from another and it was an excellent and enlightenting experience for me to really for the first time SEE the different things I liked and didn't like about different speaker designs and concepts. I walked away knowing for a fact that I will more than likely never build a pair of ported mains again. Sealed all the way baby.
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