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NE Spring Speaker Shootout results thread - April 13, 2013 - Page 14

post #391 of 568
OK, it has been a long time coming, and for that I aporogize to all, but here is my review in full:

I am just going to run down my experiences over the entire weekend. To start, I had the pleasure Thursday night of getting to check out Popa's theater and boy was that a good time!!! Even with just 8 of his subs running, being in such a small place kinda cordoned off from the rest of the basement basically was like sitting in the front chamber if of a bandpass box and it was AWESOME!!!! We had a great time checkin out some scenes and tracks and it really was a good start to the long weekend!!

I was surprised to see that I was the first to arrive and Rilla's Friday afternoon, but took that as a great opportunity to get to know the room and kinda what Rilla had in mind for how things would roll! I had offered to be part of the moving crew, and, by the time people starting showing up, we had a good spot setup to start stacking up the speakers until we were ready to get them downstairs. We also got to listen to a few of Sib's offerings and the SVS's upstairs in Rilla's living room, so I had at least a little more experience with those to be slightly more prepared for the next day's festivities.

Friday night at Andrews was really fun to get to know several of the guys a little before the big day. It helped me to actually lock a few names and faces down before the onslaught that I knew was coming the next day. We had a great time grabbing some grub and getting the tracklist trimmed down afterwards. I have to say I was mega stoked when I came down and saw that Andrew had the Yorks going already, as they are one of the main speakers I was wanting to hear that weekend. Cheers to Rilla for getting them last second and adding them to the lineup!!! How awesome!!! Needless to say by the time my head hit the pillow that night, I was so wrought with anticipation it was virtually impossible to knock off.

So here we are, the day of the big event. We started hauling speakers down as fast as they were arriving and as the stack of different offerings grew in the back, so did my anticipation. We had some serious woofage goin' on!!!! We were pretty much on time getting started so without further useless recollection:

Monitor Audio RX8

So being a part of the moving crew and seeing these little guys stacked in the theater next to speakers like the legacies and the LS6's they just looked tee-tiny, but please believe me they are more than meets the eye!!! We got these cranked up as our first offering, and there was no jitters or first to go nervousness from the monitors. Great looking speaker, awesome capable. They really took us out of the gates well and were a great start to the event. I didn't write any notes on these mainly because we were still getting some stuff moved down, and I didn't really have any reference to compare what I was hearing feeling yet. I will say that the Monitor's didn't seem to have any trouble reproducing the low end and I was actually quite surprised at how well pronounced it was coming from a box that size!!!

Ascend Sierras


I had looked a some designs a while back with the RAAL tweets, and was looking forward to hearing these once I looked a little more into their specs. I had a little experience with Ascend as I previously owned the 240SE's and thought they were great!!! Using SEAS woofers, which I also used in my old car setup, I knew they would be capable. Well I wasn't dissappointed. I was amazed at how well they did with female vocals, and the top end of most of the tracks was spot on for me. When it came to passages with guitar I was split decision, as I felt like it did quite well with the bass guitar lines but when we got into the more rock genre section, the electric guitar was not presented as well as I thought it should be. The only other hole I would poke in my listening to these was in some of the very fast technical kickdrum passages, I felt they didn't have as much impact as I prefer. These speakers really did well with the more casual music and I felt overall they were an excellent package.

SVS Ultra Towers


Well I had gotten to hear a little bit of these the night before, and for someone not really wanting a sub, but still a big fan of a little extra "Umph" down low, well these are your speakers boy! There was much more output down low than the previous offerings, but hey, that is exactly why the 8inch sub was built into the bottom to begin with right??? I felt the sound carried well throughout the room and they were a pretty neat looking design with the angular rear face. I still felt these were a little harsh on the rock/metal tracks but the kickdrum area was improved on from the previous offerings, but I didn't feel it was due to the lower extension but more they could handle the quick hits of the drum a little better. On Tron I could really hear the breathing which was neat, but as has already been stated, this may have been more since they ended up a little hotter than the other offerings thus far.

Beast's LS6s

Well these are mine, and I love them dearly for music, so I will leave my review at that. After a little hiccup getting these level matched, I think everyone enjoyed their presentation and I agree with many of you that they really throw a phenomenal soundstage, probably the best I have heard in all my systems and certainly up there with all the offerings that day. I do wish we could have given these some juice later on but time didn't allow. Perhaps they can show their face again sometime biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif


Legacy Focus SE

One word here, subdued. The Legacies were just clear, crisp and the top-end to me was never overbearing. I could literally listen to these without fatigue for days, not to mention look at them as well...Very laid back smile.gif These did everything quite well and they should have IMO. Lol. These got the rock and fast kick passages well while excelling quite well at the vocals and smoother tracks. Now here is the rub, I never once really got a "Wow" moment with these and that is what I live for when listening to music. Where these great at presenting the material? Heck yea! But on some of the most discerning passages, where there were big dynamic peaks or tough to handle nuances, they didn't quite give me the "holy crap" moment that the most inspiring speakers I heard that day did. For what it was worth I was listening to these pretty darn close to the sweet spot directly behind the couch and enjoyed watching the wak-a-mole session going on in front of me as people slowly discovered the smaller sweet-spot that these had compared to some of the other speakers. Others have stated the same, but these are a one-seat wonder when it comes to a sweet spot, and with them voiced the way they are, the room would be pretty nice with minimal treatment I would have to guess.


KRK 10-3s (played at the end of the event)


(reviewed at the end of the review)

FULL RANGERS

Arx A5

I can't pass judgement on these as I didn't get to give them a full dedicated listen but from what I did get to hear, they were an INCREDIBLE value at where they are priced. The Neo ribbon was a smaller variant of what I have in the LS6's so I knew the top end would be good, and the XBL tech while may not have gotten to stretch it's legs fully, still filled in well and the sound was excellent and not lacking really in any area.


SEOS Fusion 8s

Well running a pair of SEOS 12 inch speakers in my theater right now, I was more excited to see the surprise on everyone's face when they learned of the performance/value of these little guys. Sibuna did a killer job on the build and I was actually amazed at the ability of these to do as well as my 12's!!! These were the first set that incorporated horns and the difference in them compared to all the others thus far was pretty obvious. Much more foward and that sound that I relly like when I am running hard and enjoying verty dynamic music.

JTR Single 8’s

Man, what a rediculous little performer here!! Light, powerful, and able to take an absolute beating. 1800 watts to this little guy is what Jeff said he had given it once and the drivers started to cry not too far away from clipping. I just want to know who else was listening at that point cuz wow!!! I felt these had a little more midbass than the fusion 8s when listening to a couple of the tracks. If you are looking for a good surround speaker for your big front stage, these can take it just fine, don't you worry one bit. If you are just looking for a quality small front stage, well, these are your guys too. If you are looking to get pretty close in performance, and don't like the price-tag, and don't mind building out a speaker, then see the previous speaker mentioned above. Both are just awesome for what they do.

SEOS Tempests
SEOS Sentinels


Gonna post these both together as I kind of let others get front seat area on these as having a similar build to the sents, and knowing the Tempests would be similar to the fusion and sentinel combo, I knew others would enjoy hearing just how far a DIY build could really go. I wish we could have shown some folks the sentinel's potential down low but it's all good. I absolutely LOVE what has come up over the last few months using the SEOS horns and I bet the best is still to come...(Right Chop?)

Yorkville U215s

Boy oh boy were these some big speakers, and THEY WERE ON WHEELS!! haha. It didn't matter to me. As I have stated previously in the thread, I couldn't care one bit about what a speaker looks like. Yes looks do matter at some point, but I tend to be on the mentality of performance speakers for itself. Well, anyway, I was already familiar with what these could do after editing the tracks down using them the night before, and needless to say they didn't dissappoint. They were my favorite speaker thus far and I tried my best to sell the LS6's so I could possibly walk out the door with them biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif haha. Remember Rilla, that bird's eye maple matches your hardwoods quite nicely upstairs!!!!! I didn't really have an optimal seating spot on these but the unity horn design just got my goat even a little off axis. dual 15's obviously had no issues handling the bottom end and these could absolutely crank without any issues with the 4311's power. This was the point where we really started putting the coal to the offerings and the beer was starting to go to our heads a shade, but was also the same time where we really started to stretch the limits of some people's comfort zone. I don't really have one, and will probably pay for it at some point, but right now as young as I am, I feel I can squeek out some heavy sessions every once in a while. I mean, it's not like standing next to a 10000 horsepower top fuel dragster, so it's not too bad. Hehe...

JTR Noesis 212

In my opinion and what many are probably wanting to hear, (Or not) is that I feel they are a good step above the triple 12's. I had a pair of the triple12's and the 2way BMS is just a step above when it came to the clarity. What a ridiculous speaker and when we ran it with the EP4000 they were just crazy clear and nothing major to poke in their performance other than the fact that part of the reason I moved away from the Triple12's is I wanted a mains speaker that was able to run full range on it's own. Well these definitely need a sub, but once they take over around 80hz, to me it is just sonic bliss. The high shrill on the one track was just peircing and I LOVED IT!!!!

Seaton Cat 12Cs


What can I say about these that hasn't already been said. When we played a couple of real low bass tracks on these and i saw the stinkin 8" midrange moving about an inch back peak to peak I immediately knew it was something i wanted and would stop at nothing until I found it. Ok perhaps a 2000 watt on board amp is somewhat unfair playing ground, but when we actually were listening to the track list the first time through, they just seemed to me to be the most balanced, throughout the spectrum, and effortless. These were simply something for anyone to find a pair and listen to when they get a chance. It made me learn a few things about my tastes and what I want in my front stage. I have not heard a pair of submersives, but with two of the seaton 12c's I heard the most capable front stage that could plum the depths so easy it was crazy. Using a similar 12" woofer from AE right now, I was afraid to push mine to levels that I watched Mark just laugh at with the Cats. These full range are something that I won't stop until I can recreate somehow, someway. If I never find that, then I will just have to win the lottery and buy a pair of the 12c's!!!! Just a truly amazing speaker and breathtaking to watch work!!!!!

Shout outs:
Rilla for getting all of us together and opening up his home to a big S-fest full of amazing speaker demoing!!!!!
Rilla's wife for her understand and flexibility to just take off for the weekend
Rush for selflessly handling the mix and making sure we all stay on point all day long!! As well as taking all of our editing requests and bickering and just cruising right along!!! Thank you for all the work you put into the weekend!
Jeff and Mark for bringing their flagship offerings and letting us really take control of their wonderful speakers while just sitting backseat and watching all of us enjoy their amazing builds!!!!
Popa for treating me to his theater before we got the insanity started. Man what an excellent weekend all around!!!!!


What many have not mentioned and I felt was one of the greatest things I took away from the even was the knowledge in general. Being in Western NC, I have a few enthusiasts around that can appreciate what we all around shoot for, but my regular crowd just thinks that I am plain insane with this stuff. I had an absolute blast shooting ideas back and forth between many of the attendees and it was just a breath of fresh air to be around so many other guys that are going for those systems that are "over the top" and will make any commercial theater scream in shame. I gained so much from seeing-hearing how other people approach system setup, design, etc. that I have to say even though I immensely enjoyed listening to all the speakers, what I took away from the event was so much more valuable. For any of you worried about ever attending one of these events because you don't feel "ready" or knowledgeable enough yet, just forget about that. We had every type of enthusiast there from new entrants into the hobby to two of the premier ID speaker designers (Thanks again for making the trip guys!!!!), but we were all there for the same thing, enjoying good speakers, company, and fellowship.

With all that said, I came back with some new ideas and designs in mind, and hope to take some of these on sooner rather than later.
post #392 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascend View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob from NJ View Post

An observation from Papalock of which I also observed about a point where a high sounded harsh on a number of speakers: "It was early in the day and at one point I thought I heard the RAAL start to break-up slightly in highest frequencies. I don't have my notes in front of me, but I do remember paying attention in the later auditions and noted that other speakers had similar break-up during that particular material, so I have to blame it on the actual recording itself."

I brought the Sierras to the GTG and yes, along with all the full range speakers playing, crossing over to a sub would have helped the overall performance of the speaker, as well as, extra amplification. Can't speak for all Sierra owners however many tend to use a sub with the Sierras and cross over at 60Hz - 80Hz. I'm sure some owners cross over at different frequencies. Consider these factors at the GTG:
- Large room
- Very well dampened room
- Certain speakers playing full range
- No external amplification (all driven from a Denon 4311)
- SPL averaging an estimated 85db - 90db
- Music sweep was complex - very low bass to very high frequency
- Type of music geared toward strengths of certain speakers (a point made by a fellow attendee in this thread)

In summary, yes, the full range speakers including the Sierras were pushed to their limits and I would never play the Sierras or a number of the other full rangers without a sub. These conditions affected the performance of the speaker - bass and high frequencies.

From what I have read of this GTG, the spl averaging was done at about 18 feet back from the speakers and the room itself is 40 feet long (wow!). With the speakers that were being run full range all having sensitivity ratings of about 89/90dB efficiency, allowing for only 10dB of headroom, the Denon 4311 (at only 140 watts of power) would have had to deliver 180 watts, which it is not capable of. Attempting to go any bit louder, and things start to get even worse.

Please don't misunderstand me here, I am not taking credit away from ANY of the speakers, but If you read the comments and compare sensitivity ratings, the higher the speaker's sensitivity (in general) the better it performed. With the Noesis and self-powered Cat's stealing the show.

The (3) lowest sensitivity speakers were all reported as having somewhat harsh highs, only with the Legacy SE did things start to sound "smoother". For good reason, the Legacy, with 96dB sensitivity, requires 1/4 the power from the receiver. Fact, the Denon receiver used is not capable of providing enough power to stress the RAAL 70-20 and considering the same source material sounded OK on the higher efficiency speakers, I really must stress that what people were hearing with the first 3 speakers was likely a struggling / clipping receiver -- which absolutely would account for harsh highs and problematic lows (compressed dynamics). This really must be taken into account by anyone comparing the results.

I believe we now move more 70-20's than any other company and we have never received a comment regarding harsh sounding highs. Detailed, smooth, relaxed -- yes, but never harsh -- even at 110dB measured at ~12 ft distance in our well damped demo room, but of course, being run off a dedicated amp.

For future listening sessions like this, I suggest someone scope the output of the amplification device to make sure it is not struggling. Otherwise, comparing so many different types of speakers with such huge sensitivity swings is extremely problematic, especially in an environment that requires so much output.

Weekend time!!!!

We had 800 watt at 4 ohm cherry monoblocks on bamberrg, svs, and ls6 speakers this last weekend at the Des Moines meet and some of the lower sensitivity speakers like the aforementioned still ended up sounding bit harsh on occasion.
post #393 of 568
Brandon, awesome write-up. Thanks.
post #394 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

OK, it has been a long time coming, and for that I aporogize to all, but here is my review in full:


KRK 10-3s (played at the end of the event)


(reviewed at the end of the review)

Shout outs:
Rilla for getting all of us together and opening up his home to a big S-fest full of amazing speaker demoing!!!!!
Rilla's wife for her understand and flexibility to just take off for the weekend
Rush for selflessly handling the mix and making sure we all stay on point all day long!! As well as taking all of our editing requests and bickering and just cruising right along!!! Thank you for all the work you put into the weekend!
Jeff and Mark for bringing their flagship offerings and letting us really take control of their wonderful speakers while just sitting backseat and watching all of us enjoy their amazing builds!!!!
Popa for treating me to his theater before we got the insanity started. Man what an excellent weekend all around!!!!!

Ok, very funny.... still waiting to know what you think as I know you were one of the few who gave them a good listen at the end.

And everyone is very welcome, putting together all those tracks is a labor of love. It takes a fair amount of time, but the presentation is worth it I think.
post #395 of 568
Nice rundown beast! Glad you had the chance to check out my setup as well as you were the first fellow AVSer to have done so.

Oh yeah, reading your review on the Noesis... I'm pretty sure the shrill track you were referring to was the Sarah McLachlan track I threw in the mix... It was also referred to as the ear rape song.
post #396 of 568
nice write up beast. as you have a pair of tempests with a different woofer, im curious if you noticed any difference between the 2
post #397 of 568
Before I get to my long overdue impressions and measurements of all the speakers, I want to add some more details of setup procedures and some of the issues we ran into. Friday night we used the Yorkvilles to finalize the playlist and to choose an approximate listening level that we would use on Saturday. Our plan for Saturday was to use the AVR test tones to level match each speaker to 75dB using the Omnimic SPL meter with no weighting. Then I would capture the FR for each speaker. However we did run into some issues. Some of this is from memory, so if anyone finds any mistakes, let me know.

Monitor Audio RX8 - We used the AVR test tones to set the level to 75db. This resulted in speaker trims of +3.5. Then we listened to the first 2 clips to settle on a MV level of -22.5, that we would use for the rest of the day.

Ascend Tower - We used the AVR test tones again. Speaker trims were set to +6 and the MV was again set to -22.5. During the clips, the overall level seemed to be similar to the RX8 and the FR sweeps show about the same thing.



SVS Ultra - This is where we started having issues. Speaker trims were set to +9 to get 75dB. We started the clips at a MV of -22.5, but multiple people commented that the level was higher then the previous two speakers, so we lowered the MV to -24.5. Even then, they seemed to be louder and the max / peak SPL readings back this up. Looking at the FR measurement, a lot of this might be caused by a boosted low end.



LS6 - Even more issues. While level matching, we had to max the speaker trims at +12 to reach 75db. This seemed strange to myself and others because I expected the LS6 to be more sensitive then the SVS. So we did a full factory reset of the AVR, rebooted both the measurement laptop and media source laptop, but nothing changed. Nobody could come up with anything we were doing wrong, so we moved on. In the end we set the speaker trims to +9, then increased the MV to compensate. During the first couple clips, the level still seemed low, so we upped the MV again. I think we ended up listening at a MV of -14.

Legacy Focus SE - We were able to level match at 75db. For some reason I didn't write down the speaker trims, but I think they were set to about +5. Like the LS6, during the first couple clips, the level seemed low. We bumped up the MV again, but I don't know what we settled on.

These measurements were done after level matching to 75db, but before bumping the MV during the clips. They show the level difference of the legacy and ls6 compared to the RX8.



Speakers with subs: For the standard listening sessions, I believe we set the level of the subs to ~78db using the AVR test tone. Tweaked the sub distance with the Arx to get the best response at the crossover.



Arx A5 - First speaker to also use the JTR S2 subs. Set the speakers to 75db, trims at +9, I have notes that we listened at a MV of -17, but don't remember if that was for all the clips, or just some of them. This was also the first speaker that after we finished the clips at the standard levels, we went back to a couple songs and played at or near reference.

Seos Fusion 8 - Speaker trims +6, MV -17.5.

JTR S8 - Don't have notes for these and don't remember what MV we listened at. I think speaker trims were around +3. Also had a significant dip near the crossover that we should have addressed, but for some reason we did not.

Seos Tempest - Speaker trims +3, MV -17.

Seos Sentinel - Speaker trims +4, MV -9 to reference. Andrew was in charge of the volume for this speaker, so it definitely did not stay at the normal listening level for long.

Yorkville - I don't have notes on the speaker trims, but I think they were around +1. Like the Sentinels, we started these loud and went above reference on more then 1 clip.

Noesis 212 - Don't have notes on the speaker trims, but remember they were 3-4 db lower then the Yorkvilles. Don't think the MV was below reference for any of the clips.

Cat12C - Speaker trims are irrelevant for comparison. Like the Noesis, MV was above reference for much of the clips. We listened to the entire clip list twice on the Cat12Cs. One with the normal DSP and S2s and one with the full range DSP without subs.

Here is a comparison of the Cat12C normal DSP and full range DSP.


Here is a comparison of the CAT12C full range DSP and normal DSP with the S2 subs. Of course the S2s have much more headroom then the Cat12Cs, but they have very similar bass response at these levels.


Noesis again - This time powered by an EP4000? These were calibrated with the AVR test tones to 85db with the subs about 10db hotter then earlier. Listening levels reached well over MV 0. At one point, it sounded like something clipped. The amp clip light was off, so I don't know what it was. At this point, the levels were ridiculous.

KRK - Run full range without subs. Set to 75db, levels were pushed to above reference.


Next up will be all the measurements.
post #398 of 568
Attached is a zip file of all the measurements.































I'm a bit reluctant to post this considering the reactions to max SPL readings from past GTGs, but let's see what happens. Before each speaker audition, I reset the max and peak SPL readings and captured the readings at the end. Settings were the same for all. Unfortunately I did not get a capture of the second session of the noesis. But I do remember seeing a steady reading of 118db during a 5-120hz sweep, and peak reading of around 125db.





gtg.zip 171k .zip file
post #399 of 568
Thread Starter 
Wow, loving the activity that I missed in this thread last night!

Beast - Thanks for getting your thoughts up man, great write up!

Mike - Thanks for the measurements sir!

Austin - You will be happy to know we (myself and 351Carlo) hooked an inuke6000 (in your honor) up to the Yorks yesterday and ran them hard through all the clips. I grinned especially hard when pumping the "ear rape" track at +10. It was pretty fun - we tried full range and with subs crossed at 80hz and they took it all in stride. We even managed to clip the amp a few times on the chinese drums at stupid levels, hahaha. biggrin.gif
post #400 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Wow, loving the activity that I missed in this thread last night!

Beast - Thanks for getting your thoughts up man, great write up!

Mike - Thanks for the measurements sir!

Austin - You will be happy to know we (myself and 351Carlo) hooked an inuke6000 (in your honor) up to the Yorks yesterday and ran them hard through all the clips. I grinned especially hard when pumping the "ear rape" track at +10. It was pretty fun - we tried full range and with subs crossed at 80hz and they took it all in stride. We even managed to clip the amp a few times on the chinese drums at stupid levels, hahaha. biggrin.gif

Sounds....painfully....awesome....

Pumping 2,200watts into the York's and the amp gives out before the York's do? Wow. Did you perceive any significant difference (output) running the iNuke6000 vs the EP4000? 2,200watts vs 650ish should have yielded a bit more output, especially if you were clipping the iNuke!

Just trying to get some perspective on how much closer they would have gotten to what we heard from the Cat's and Noesis. Might just have to make a trip down there to see for myself.

biggrin.gif

Impressive Carlo? Or didn't quite compare to the 160db+ Jet Engines you make in your back yard...

tongue.gif
post #401 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

OK, it has been a long time coming, and for that I aporogize to all, but here is my review in full:

Excellent write-up, thanks for taking the time to put that together. We can now remove you from the deadbeat list. tongue.gif Andrew, who's left in the 'hall of shame'?
post #402 of 568
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Sounds....painfully....awesome....

Pumping 2,200watts into the York's and the amp gives out before the York's do? Wow. Did you perceive any significant difference (output) running the iNuke6000 vs the EP4000? 2,200watts vs 650ish should have yielded a bit more output, especially if you were clipping the iNuke!

Just trying to get some perspective on how much closer they would have gotten to what we heard from the Cat's and Noesis. Might just have to make a trip down there to see for myself.

biggrin.gif

Impressive Carlo? Or didn't quite compare to the 160db+ Jet Engines you make in your back yard...

tongue.gif

In all honestly it sounded very similar to the EP4K. Both push them to stupid levels far beyond anything reasonable, heh. I don't think 3-4DB at that point is THAT noticeable. We had some hum/noise issues after setting up which we minimized for the time being. None of that mattered really once we started cranking them though. Carlo was sitting like 8 feet back from the left channel so hopefully he is OK, haha. Luckily our blast session was limited to a half hour or so or I'd be paying for it much more today. From a pure clean output perspective I can tell you with certainty they hang with the big boys. biggrin.gif We ran through most of the clips and even a few movie clips from the demo disc at varying volumes from aggressive to stupid. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
post #403 of 568
SO basically we were listening to most of the speakers with a 10-15dB house curve down low, or starting around 1khz and slowly rising? Am I looking at that right?
post #404 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

SO basically we were listening to most of the speakers with a 10-15dB house curve down low, or starting around 1khz and slowly rising? Am I looking at that right?
That was the native fr of each speaker.
post #405 of 568
exactly, but in the room and position we had them, it seemed they all had a nice natural decreasing response the higher you went.
post #406 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Sounds....painfully....awesome....

Pumping 2,200watts into the York's and the amp gives out before the York's do? Wow. Did you perceive any significant difference (output) running the iNuke6000 vs the EP4000? 2,200watts vs 650ish should have yielded a bit more output, especially if you were clipping the iNuke!

Just trying to get some perspective on how much closer they would have gotten to what we heard from the Cat's and Noesis. Might just have to make a trip down there to see for myself.

biggrin.gif

Impressive Carlo? Or didn't quite compare to the 160db+ Jet Engines you make in your back yard...

tongue.gif

As Andrew mentioned, I was about half the distance as the girly gorilla sat. I was impressed with the Yorks combined with the amp. I think we needed a little more time to mess with the amp, the RCAs gave a very annoying humming sound due to interference and we were running them around 60-70% gain. I bought the iNuke to run my dual 15" subs, currently hooked up using Andrew's EP4K and I think it'll perform wonderfully.

I think ideally we'd get some better cables, get the iNuke, EP4K, Crown MacroTech 2402, Crown XTi and Andrew's Crown, perform some measurements using the Yorks and using some of our DIY speakers to see the effect from the various amps.

For now though, my hearing is intact. Maybe we'll do the testing in the anechoic at work... then my hearing won't be damaged any further!
post #407 of 568
Thread Starter 
I'd really like to do some blind amp comparison testing. The tough part will be keeping the noise floor levels low on the pro amps as they always seem to have some sort of hum, hiss, etc that is audible when totally silent in the room.

I'm thinking Denon receiver vs. a few different pro amps vs. high end "hifi" amplifier. Listening levels maybe reference or slightly below.
post #408 of 568
I think we should do a g2g to do it! Haha j/k. Ill bring the sunfire and the xpa-5
post #409 of 568
You should listen to reference with a high sensitivity speaker so we can rule out the amp running out of juice scenerio. Make sure it is an 8 ohm speaker as well because a 4 ohm speaker may be too much at reference, even high sensitivity. I would use a cheap proamp like the EP4000, a more expensive pro amp like a QSC PLX, the denon, a midfi amp like a rotel, parasound, or B&K, and then a high end amp like krell, Mac, sim, etc.. Of course those will be harder to come by because they are expensive. This way you guys can try to figure out if there is such thing as quality power, just more power, neither, or both.

I have done these before and I had a EP-2500 better a Mac but the Mac was 150 watts per channel. I have had an Ada better a Pioneer elite AVR. I have no idea what is what so lately I just stick with makes me happy nowadays. I always test about 5-7 people.
post #410 of 568
Quote:
You should listen to reference with a high sensitivity speaker so we can rule out the amp running out of juice scenerio

No offense MK but I think this part has been more than handled...
post #411 of 568
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I think we should do a g2g to do it! Haha j/k. Ill bring the sunfire and the xpa-5

Why the JK? Sounds as worthy of a GTG as any other idea we've had, heh. biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You should listen to reference with a high sensitivity speaker so we can rule out the amp running out of juice scenerio. Make sure it is an 8 ohm speaker as well because a 4 ohm speaker may be too much at reference, even high sensitivity. I would use a cheap proamp like the EP4000, a more expensive pro amp like a QSC PLX, the denon, a midfi amp like a rotel, parasound, or B&K, and then a high end amp like krell, Mac, sim, etc.. Of course those will be harder to come by because they are expensive. This way you guys can try to figure out if there is such thing as quality power, just more power, neither, or both.

I have done these before and I had a EP-2500 better a Mac but the Mac was 150 watts per channel. I have had an Ada better a Pioneer elite AVR. I have no idea what is what so lately I just stick with makes me happy nowadays. I always test about 5-7 people.

I have access to or own quite a few different pro amps, receivers, and mid-fi amps. Also have several low, medium, and high sensitivity speakers to use. Getting my hands on something super high end may be a little more difficult but I do have a few i could ask. Not sure if they would be up for this experiment though. biggrin.gif
post #412 of 568
Just making sure. Even the 4 ohm thing will depend on the movie or material. I have experienced this first hand. That Onkyo 805 would do well in stereo as it has lots of power for 4 ohms. The SEOS kits at 8 ohms seems like perfect speakers for this test.

BTW, the speakers were far from flat during the GTG. I can't stress how important a response can make or break a speaker. The good thing is that most were at least rolling off the same on the high end side. Very peaky in the midbass, midrange, and vocals on some.
post #413 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I think we should do a g2g to do it! Haha j/k. Ill bring the sunfire and the xpa-5

I plan on doing this probably next month when I have more time. I need to have the KC guys over anyway to check out my new sub setup so I thought we could do some blind testing between some different amps and my receiver. You guys should do a similar thing, it's a good excuse to have a GTG!! smile.gif
post #414 of 568
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Just making sure. Even the 4 ohm thing will depend on the movie or material. I have experienced this first hand. That Onkyo 805 would do well in stereo as it has lots of power for 4 ohms. The SEOS kits at 8 ohms seems like perfect speakers for this test.

BTW, the speakers were far from flat during the GTG. I can't stress how important a response can make or break a speaker. The good thing is that most were at least rolling off the same on the high end side. Very peaky in the midbass, midrange, and vocals on some.

I've been running my 4 ohm U215's off the Denon for a few weeks now and had them cranked on several occasions (music, movies, TV, and games) without any audible issues. They are pretty efficient though - 98db. The receiver seems to run pretty cool as well. They do run harder and louder off the EP4000 but the majority of normal listening levels sound exactly the same. These could be used or my SEOS sentinels would be fine as well as they're a bit more benign as an 8 ohm nominal load.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I plan on doing this probably next month when I have more time. I need to have the KC guys over anyway to check out my new sub setup so I thought we could do some blind testing between some different amps and my receiver. You guys should do a similar thing, it's a good excuse to have a GTG!! smile.gif

Nice! I'd love to do something soon. Will have to see what wifey says and when the guys are available.
post #415 of 568
I'd suggest using the biggest room you can find for the testing so you can eliminate overloading the room, or dealing with hard surface reflections when trying to compare sound quality at different volumes.
post #416 of 568
I use EQ on all my speakers to keep them all within +/- 3 dBs when comparing. I wonder if I swap out the amp for another if the response would change?

I ran a 100 watt per channel Denon on my JBL 3622Ns before and the denon would shut down during WOTW and FOTP at times. Playing reference of course. That speaker was rated at 4 ohms and 103 dBs sensitivity.
post #417 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Attached is a zip file of all the measurements.































I'm a bit reluctant to post this considering the reactions to max SPL readings from past GTGs, but let's see what happens. Before each speaker audition, I reset the max and peak SPL readings and captured the readings at the end. Settings were the same for all. Unfortunately I did not get a capture of the second session of the noesis. But I do remember seeing a steady reading of 118db during a 5-120hz sweep, and peak reading of around 125db.





gtg.zip 171k .zip file
Would someone mind explaining what the rx8's graph says/means?
post #418 of 568
Hey,
If it is possible can you apply 1/6th smoothing to all the graphs? This is how fine we hear and would love to see the differences and could explain the differences people heard. An example would be the Cats running fullrange having incredible bass, well...
post #419 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Hey,
If it is possible can you apply 1/6th smoothing to all the graphs? This is how fine we hear and would love to see the differences and could explain the differences people heard. An example would be the Cats running fullrange having incredible bass, well...
You can download the zip file ironhead1230 attached and import the .frd files in REW. Then you can smooth or overlay graphs however you want.
post #420 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Would someone mind explaining what the rx8's graph says/means?

With a 25dB swing between 100hz and 300hz... the room is having far too much influence on the sound of these speakers. (I didn't read the setup procedure thoroughly, but were all of the speakers being put in the exact same spot in the room or were they placed in slightly different positions?)

The room is causing most of the speakers to be very low in the critical 300hz area which gives warmth to a speaker. I usually try and get the 300hz region slightly elevated if anything.

Of course when someone actually buys a set of speakers and spends time setting them up in a room more carefully one can usually achieve a much flatter frequency response, especially if they are using bass management with subs. (and I'm not talking about using large amounts of EQ)
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › NE Spring Speaker Shootout results thread - April 13, 2013