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NE Spring Speaker Shootout results thread - April 13, 2013 - Page 3

post #61 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Chop, great write up!!

Your reaction to the Cat 12's reminds me a lot of my own when hearing the Noesis the first time. So, it makes me nervous that I'll be hearing the Cat 12's soon!

Ah, I shouldn't worry about it too much, the Noesis were the absolute end of my budget and then some, so basically I tried to do the absolute best I could for a little over 2 grand per speaker (hmmm actually that wasn't my thinking, my thinking was somehow I need to figure out a way to own these even though I can't afford it). I need to accept that if I like ta speaker better that's more expensive, so be it - it's out of my range and it ain't happening.

LOL.... well if it does happen I call dibs on buying your 212HT's! biggrin.gif

Hey hey hey. I'm carp's bottom feeder! tongue.gif
post #62 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Hey hey hey. I'm carp's bottom feeder! tongue.gif

LOL.....I guess you should have called "dibs" sooner then! tongue.gif

I wish I had some Caps to go along with my incoming 228HT's like you have Arch!
post #63 of 568
I laugh when I think of you guys pounding 700 ish watts to those Noesis inside during your playtime.

Here we were pumping 500 watts to them OUTSIDE in a park shelter house on a Yamaha p3500s amp last November and that was freaking loud OUTSIDE! Your neighbors surely heard those antics last night even if your room is in a walkout basement!?!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N7BJf9I_0g&sns=em
post #64 of 568
i think if you guys got some danley speakers there, the get together would be complete!
post #65 of 568
I'd love to do a GTG with only Danley, Seaton and JTR!
post #66 of 568
posted my thoughts. also dumped a bunch of pics in the other thread

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446450/ne-spring-speaker-shootout-gtg-date-poll-and-discussion/900_100
post #67 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post


To Andrew or anyone else that was there, am I right in assuming that the differences you heard with and without the ep4000 powering the Noesis were are very high levels? No difference at sane listening levels right?

.

Carp,

For me it was really only noticeable when playing them loud and even then it was pretty much only on the high end. it really felt like the AVR was holding the high back on the Sarah M track and a few others at high volumes
post #68 of 568
I will start with the full range... During this I got the idea for an over all speaker grade and broke it down into a few categories: Overall, High, Mids, Lows, Sound Stage / Imaging and Transparency

Please ... PLEASE keep in mind these are my opinions. Just because I say something does not make it "fact".... These were point in time impressions from the event. Given a different room, or a 100 other various variables different results may and probably would occur. In fact, as many noted that even sitting vs. standing produced VERY VERY different results for some speakers. (Caveat ended).

For most of the meet I was about 15/20 degrees off axis but occasionally moved to dead center when I wanted didn't hear what I was expecting and wanted to make sure it was not due to positioning... I learned my lesson during the Legacy test... I thought they were semi-junk till I stood up. Then a light came on...

Full Range

Monitor Audio RX8

Over All - D
Highs - D-
Mids C+
Lows B
Sound Stage / Imaging C-

Highs were very shrill and harsh when pushed. Even when not pushed I found them to be edgy.

Mids lacked some detail and weight this could be because so much was taken up by the bass. As many noted it also could be that the full ranges being less sensitive and efficient were not driven with enough power to fully blossom some of the full range speakers.

Bass was excellent without a sub. It could get a tad boomy but over all very impressed with the Bass.

The sound stage was present but it was not huge and felt fairly thin. Separation occurred but not distinct...it was somewhat muddled.

In all honesty I was not too familiar with Monitor Audio. I have heard the name in passing but this is the first chance I had to listen to them. I couldn't recommend these given the list of negatives they portrayed to me during my listening to them.


Ascend Sierras

Now I really really wanted to hear these guys. I currently own the Ascend CBM-170SE. I have heard so many good things about these. My current speakers also have Raal tweeter so really wanted to hear the differences between the two speakers.

It is NOT that I did not like these speakers. I think my expectations were VERY high and in comparison to some of the speakers we heard...these were not as impressive to me as I had hoped.

As we noted previously ....these were run full range but given their response probably should not have been. So take this all with a grain of salt.

Over All - B
Highs - B-
Mids B
Lows C
Sound Stage / Imaging B

The highs were ultra detailed as one would expect with a Raal, but when pushed they could become shrill and harsh. Only when pushed hard and at the top end.

Mids were detailed and full. I had them at a C+ simply because the speakers felt like they were struggling some (which they probably were) to produce full range bass without support. This did muddle not only the Mids but I felt the imaging somewhat too.

Lows did thump out considering their size. I wouldn't fail them on the bass...it was ok...but was definitely missing weight and some accuracy probably because it could not dig low enough. Again, in defence of the speaker no one has ever said these are full range or near full range speakers.

Sound Stage was fairly wide and imaging was precise but it did get muddled due to the speakers struggling to pump out full range bass. The music did envelop you if not to the degree of some of the others.

I would like to hear these again under different circumstances as it is now though, for their cost, I could recommend them but on not unilaterally...




SVS Ultra Towers

When these got plugged in we all could hear that they sounded ...louder than the speakers that went before. Which was interesting since they did allot of testing to match level.

These were one of the speakers I really wanted to hear. I wanted to test these bad boys out when I was in the market for speakers but a few things positioned me so that I never had the chance.

Let me say that they are good looking speakers but slightly smaller than I thought via pictures...well ok...allot smaller. For some reason I had in my head these things were 6 feet tall.

Overall B (with a fair number of caveats)
Highs - D+ T
Mids C+
Lows A- / B+
Sound Stage / Imaging C-


These seemed to be fairly forward speakers and I could never characterize them as neutral. The highs when pushed were shrill and very harsh.. Let me state again when pushed hard it was almost like finger nails on a chalkboard..but only when pushed very hard.

I am going to go to the lows and skip the mids for a moment... Holy crap the bass was good. Ok...I admit this was a bit more boomy than accurate. I don't know if it is the room etc but even being somewhat boomy it was good. Now saying that the bass so dominated the speakers that it did tend to muddle the mids, highs and heck everything else in the room.

Separation and detail is not this speakers strong suit...but the forward edge and deep heavy bass made this a hella fun speaker to listen too. The harsh highs only came out when really really pressed. I don't think these would be fatiguing to listen to long term unless you were listening to some extreme high sounds for extended periods.

Although these were a "flawed" speaker in the end I found myself really liking them. It is almost as if you know you shouldn't but you do anyway... They put a smile on my face and made my toe tap... They had energy and a great over all feel. These seemed to be more than sum of its parts to me.

One of the comments I heard a few times is these are over priced given the components they had in them... I think given the B&M speakers these are well in line price wise for performance.

Now...would I buy them...tough call but I do fondly think of them...

Sound stage was huge and pervasive...the music enveloped you. Imaging was a little muddled but over all excellent.



Enough for tonight I will do the rest later. It is almost 1 am and work tomorrow.

Beast's LS6s
Legacy Focus SE
Edited by Newbie01 - 4/15/13 at 5:34am
post #69 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Awesome. Keep the impressions coming.

I'm surprised at the so-so response of the SEOS speakers. I know they aren't Noesis or Cats, but I figured they would have some notable strengths (aside from price).

Maybe the next time a GTG happens in the northeast, my full range TD12X SEOS towers will be ready.

I think people would be semi nuts not to consider the SEOS builds if doing something 100% for HT ESPECIALLY in a large room. They were easy to drive, clean and accurate...they were not fatiguing or shrill at all.

Were they the best speaker out there....neah...not in my opinion... Were they darn good...you bet ya. They were missing a little bit of the mids and the detail was also missing some... Clean, huge sound stage and decent imaging with good / great highs, average mids and well...we can leave the lows out of this...

But anyway...you got me side tracked! I did want to mention the SEOS because they were MUCH MUCH better than I expected and the price / performance ratio is insane.
post #70 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

As a fan boy owner redface.gifsmile.gif I'm glad to see this. Not because I would be offended if other people didn't like them- but I would feel bad for steering a ton of people towards the Noesis and then come to find out they just happened to be tailored to my taste. I do usually give the disclaimer that it's just my opinion.... but then I go on and on about them, I can't help it.
As another fanboy owner, with little experience with high end audio outside of my JTR's, it is good to see independent reviewers liking the Jeff's speakers to not only validate my decision to buy them, but like you, it makes me feel a little less guilty when I heap praise on the speakers on the forums.

It sounds like it was a really fun get together and I am jealous of those who were able to attend. It also sounds like there were a lot of winning speakers there and not really any losers. The reviews are very informative and it is interesting to see much personal preferences affect which speakers people like.
post #71 of 568
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

Carp,

For me it was really only noticeable when playing them loud and even then it was pretty much only on the high end. it really felt like the AVR was holding the high back on the Sarah M track and a few others at high volumes

I would agree with this and said the same when I spoke to Jonathan yesterday. Difference below reference was not noticeable at all. To get to that last 5-10% though the power amp was required. biggrin.gif It would have been cool to do the same on the higher SEOS and Yorkvilles as well just to see.

Carp - I'd recommend you try the CV5000 on them for sure.
post #72 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post


I would agree with this and said the same when I spoke to Jonathan yesterday. Difference below reference was not noticeable at all. To get to that last 5-10% though the power amp was required. biggrin.gif It would have been cool to do the same on the higher SEOS and Yorkvilles as well just to see.

Carp - I'd recommend you try the CV5000 on them for sure.

I totally concur. The extra amp power allowed the pro-inspired speaker systems go to "eleven". Also, putting that kind of power into the consumer-oriented towers would have triggered speaker-related distortion or worse. So yeah, we're talking exceptional power and dynamics and clarity, when big-boy speakers are properly matched with pro amplification.

 

I do think the Legacy towers and the LS6 pair could have been run at high levels with pro power, since they were being presented "full range". Those speakers were not designed to be pushed by a receiver and I feel they could have put on a comparable show.

post #73 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I would agree with this and said the same when I spoke to Jonathan yesterday. Difference below reference was not noticeable at all. To get to that last 5-10% though the power amp was required. biggrin.gif It would have been cool to do the same on the higher SEOS and Yorkvilles as well just to see.

Carp - I'd recommend you try the CV5000 on them for sure.

Yeah, I talked to Jonathan too after I asked the question here. He said you told him that as you approach reference you can tell a difference in the highs. That's enough to get me to try it out.

Also he said you guys ran the volume with the Noesis at +15 master volume and +10 speaker levels so +25 over reference overall. I've been at +15 and thought that was nuts, +25?!?!?!? Wow, man. biggrin.gif Let me guess... Jeff had the remote right? smile.gif

Seriously though, you guys better take some down time from cranking your systems for awhile I bet your ears need some recovery.
post #74 of 568
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Awesome. Keep the impressions coming.

I'm surprised at the so-so response of the SEOS speakers. I know they aren't Noesis or Cats, but I figured they would have some notable strengths (aside from price).

Maybe the next time a GTG happens in the northeast, my full range TD12X SEOS towers will be ready.

I can't say it was exactly apples-apples for all of the later comparisons, but I really wish I had run some of the SEOS offerings and/or yorks full range to show off what they really could do. The Sentinels and yorks really scream when run full range on a pro amp. We really need to go part of Sunday as well, LOL. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

They're great for sure, the problem, I think, is that the Cats, Noesis and Yorks all got silly with volume. The Sentinels got the volume pushed a bit, but not like the cats/noesis. The seos builds ae fantastic, and MTG's(Sentinel) is my favorite. I'm not saying I've run a thousand watts to them, but I'm not saying I haven't biggrin.gif They kick tail for sure, just weren't given the same push of the big guns.

Agreed my man!

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yeah, I talked to Jonathan too after I asked the question here. He said you told him that as you approach reference you can tell a difference in the highs. That's enough to get me to try it out.

Also he said you guys ran the volume with the Noesis at +15 master volume and +10 speaker levels so +25 over reference overall. I've been at +15 and thought that was nuts, +25?!?!?!? Wow, man. biggrin.gif Let me guess... Jeff had the remote right? smile.gif

Seriously though, you guys better take some down time from cranking your systems for awhile I bet your ears need some recovery.

If I recall correctly I don't think we went much over +5 (not 15 if I misspoke maybe) but they were about +10 hot. We had the sub who knows how hot, hahaha. It was freakin' loud in there man, but it sounded great. biggrin.gif I listen at those levels for a few spirited sessions every couple of weeks, but not for that duration. Yesterday my ears were hollow for sure and I actually had to turn my car radio down this morning. My ears are still a bit raw.
post #75 of 568
After reading this thread, one thing I truly believe is that one cannot really buy speakers without listening to them in your room and with your own equipment (receiver, amp,etc...) as we all have different preferences. Take the Legacy Focus as an example, some rated them on top, other disappointed. I listened to the Legacy Focus about 12yrs ago at my friend place and love the sound. He was running Sim Audio Pre, SimAudio Moon CD player and drove them with a pair of Sim Audio W10 Monoblocks. With subwoofer, one might be able to buy unheard. Keep it coming guys. Love reading these.
Edited by Cowboys - 4/15/13 at 6:06am
post #76 of 568
Thread Starter 
I added my comments to the second post.

I wonder if my neighbors were wondering what was going on? biggrin.gif Credit to Mark/imagic for the sweet shot!

post #77 of 568
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

After reading this thread, one thing I realize that one cannot really buy speakers without listening to them in your room and with your own equipment (receiver, amp,etc...) as we all have different preferences. Take the Legacy Focus as an example, some rated them on top, other disappointed. I listened to the Legacy Focus about 12yrs ago at my friend place and love the sound. He was running Sim Audio Pre, SimAudio Moon CD player and drove them with a pair of Sim Audio W10 Monoblocks. With subwoofer, one might be able to buy unheard. Keep it coming guys. Love reading these.

Agreed, opinions will vary greatly and speaker impressions and tastes are very very subjective. We tossed the idea of running a power amp on all back and forth, but ultimately decided to use the Denon as it would be not be 'over-representing' what some would be running at home.
post #78 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

After reading this thread, one thing I realize that one cannot really buy speakers without listening to them in your room and with your own equipment (receiver, amp,etc...) as we all have different preferences. Take the Legacy Focus as an example, some rated them on top, other disappointed. I listened to the Legacy Focus about 12yrs ago at my friend place and love the sound. He was running Sim Audio Pre, SimAudio Moon CD player and drove them with a pair of Sim Audio W10 Monoblocks. With subwoofer, one might be able to buy unheard. Keep it coming guys. Love reading these.

But be honest, how many pairs of 100+ pound, $1000+ speakers are you really going to be able to audition in your own home? GTGs, audio shows, and showrooms are a good starting point, exposure to a whole bunch of different speakers in a short time is a good thing. A lot of speaker dealers who offer in-home trials count on the idea that people will like what they are presented and won't want to go through the effort of auditioning a wider variety of speakers. 

 

When buying speakers that cost multiple thousands of dollars, a trial/return period is a good thing. I understand your ultimate point, it's hard to make a final judgement without the context of how it will actually be used—especially when that judgement results in money spent.

post #79 of 568
The Legacy's (mine) do have a narrow sweet spot both vertically and horizontally. Because of that, they aren't a good candidate for home theater. I got them knowing that as I am more of a one man, sweet spot music listener. One comment was made that they didn't even hear a sweet spot. Placement and listening position for these is critical and when you are there, these guys are transparent and accurate as hell. They were placed wide compared to my home setting which may have effected the spot. And yes they do get loud, keeping their qualities, up into no mans land. I drive them here at home with a Bryston 14B SST (900 at 4ohm). . But... they don't compare to the CAT 12's or the Noesis 212's because they aren't designed as a wide dispersion heavy hitter HT speaker.

With that said, I am now considering changing to an HT specific speaker. . Have to look at what I can do financially depending on what my stuff brings in.

As the HT turns....
post #80 of 568
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post

With that said, I am now considering changing to an HT specific speaker. . Have to look at what I can do financially depending on what my stuff brings in.

As the HT turns....

The downside of these events is they can cost you a BIT of $$$. biggrin.gif The upside is they really open your eyes to many other possibilities.

I'll have to come listen to the Legacy's at your place Mike - especially before (if) you sell them. biggrin.gif
post #81 of 568
I wish I could of come to your meet. I have been into audio gear, especially speakers, for 40+ years. I have taken many road trips to listen to speakers, the latest being Axpona in Chicago. One thing I have learned is that there is nothing like listening to speakers in your room hooked up to your equipment but meets like yours will at least give you an idea of the signature sound. I have heard some highly regarded speakers that left me cold. I have always been a music first guy. If they cant deliver to goods with my favorite recordings, that's a deal breaker. My current mains are some older Carver ALIII's. the mids and highs are handled by a dipolar ribbon, the lows by a 10" driver in the base of the cabinet. They were a Craig's list find for a very reasonable price. I am willing to trade the super dynamics of some ht oriented speakers for musical presentation that appeals to me. I think it is possible for a speaker to do both well but I honestly feel they are few and far between. My next road trip will be to Cincinnati to hear some Aerial 7t's. The quest continues.
post #82 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

I wish I could of come to your meet. I have been into audio gear, especially speakers, for 40+ years. I have taken many road trips to listen to speakers, the latest being Axpona in Chicago. One thing I have learned is that there is nothing like listening to speakers in your room hooked up to your equipment but meets like yours will at least give you an idea of the signature sound. I have heard some highly regarded speakers that left me cold. I have always been a music first guy. If they cant deliver to goods with my favorite recordings, that's a deal breaker. My current mains are some older Carver ALIII's. the mids and highs are handled by a dipolar ribbon, the lows by a 10" driver in the base of the cabinet. They were a Craig's list find for a very reasonable price. I am willing to trade the super dynamics of some ht oriented speakers for musical presentation that appeals to me. I think it is possible for a speaker to do both well but I honestly feel they are few and far between. My next road trip will be to Cincinnati to hear some Aerial 7t's. The quest continues.

What was immediately obvious with the Noesis pair, is that it exhibited no "genre bias", and induced no listening fatigue. You could listen to anything, at any volume, for any length of time and get total pleasure out of that speaker pair. Only a bad mix would ruin the party.

post #83 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

As a fan boy owner redface.gifsmile.gif I'm glad to see this. Not because I would be offended if other people didn't like them- but I would feel bad for steering a ton of people towards the Noesis and then come to find out they just happened to be tailored to my taste. I do usually give the disclaimer that it's just my opinion.... but then I go on and on about them, I can't help it.

Honestly, i could not agree more with what u just said. Its awesome seeig people love the same speaker that you do. Everything comes down to money in the end......but if u want it bad enough....u will find a way to get it lol. Im a 12C owner and have 2 submersives and another submersive on the way lmao. Would love to hear the JTRs one day and i have no doubt they would sound brilliant!. Wish one day ill be in the US and i can attend one these gtg's.
Edited by buddhamus - 4/15/13 at 7:31am
post #84 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

What was immediately obvious with the Noesis pair, is that it exhibited no "genre bias", and induced no listening fatigue. You could listen to anything, at any volume, for any length of time and get total pleasure out of that speaker pair. Only a bad mix would ruin the party.

That is the crux of the biscuit. The Cats fall into that same category and those two speakers are the best I have heard for HT. That doesn't mean that Danley and certain other manufacturers (DIY?) can't do similar or the same ...It's nice to have options cool.gif
Edited by RMK! - 4/15/13 at 8:25am
post #85 of 568
I really need to make an effort to get to Jeff's place to hear the Noesis' - he is only 40 minutes from me for pity's sake! Based on everyone's reviews to this point, it would be a fantastic experience...
post #86 of 568
No one's mentioned a sweet spot when discussing the Noesis (or 12C for that matter). How broad of a sweet spot does the 212HT or 228HT have? Does it sound as good off axis? I wish I had more rooms in my house.
Edited by VicTorious1 - 4/15/13 at 9:07am
post #87 of 568
Man I hate seeing these threads. I really wish I lived closer to be a part of these. frown.gif

Sounds like a great time with some good guys. Oh well, guess I'll have to live vicariously through all of you. biggrin.gif
post #88 of 568

I've edited my first post in this thread, adding some of the notes I took on the speakers. It's fairly un-edited stuff, my fragmented thoughts, jotted on my iPad.

 

 

Here it is: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1468211/ne-spring-speaker-shootout-results-thread-april-13-2013#post_23202150


Edited by imagic - 4/15/13 at 10:20am
post #89 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I laugh when I think of you guys pounding 700 ish watts to those Noesis inside during your playtime.

Here we were pumping 500 watts to them OUTSIDE in a park shelter house on a Yamaha p3500s amp last November and that was freaking loud OUTSIDE! Your neighbors surely heard those antics last night even if your room is in a walkout basement!?!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N7BJf9I_0g&sns=em
I have a video of the final with the noesis at full tilt. I am just having problems sending to Andrew to post.
post #90 of 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Man I hate seeing these threads. I really wish I lived closer to be a part of these. frown.gif

Sounds like a great time with some good guys. Oh well, guess I'll have to live vicariously through all of you. biggrin.gif
Get one going!
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