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Krell Brings Foundation AV Pre/Pro to the New York Audio Show - Page 2

post #31 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It's not snobbery, it's confidence; Audyssey is not all that reliable and the benefits it provides for a high-end system are dubious at best. The more modest receiver-based Audyssey systems are error-prone and not very customizable. For a high-end system, using receiver-based Audyssey is like bringing Tabasco sauce to Nobu—it's just plain wrong.

It seems you don't even know what Audyseey is for yet you have a a very strong opinion about it. It has nothing to do with the system per se but about your room acoustics, and your speaker's acoustic relation to it.

Quote:




This is the Audyssey homepage. Any claim that Apple's EarPods can be improved to the point where they can compete with headphones that cost "hundreds of dollars" is hugely suspect, but if the WSJ said so it must be true. So, who's fueling up their private jet with the profits made off of uneducated audio enthusiasts?

Unrelated garbage
Quote:

If one is to believe Audyssey, there's no speaker on Earth they can't make sound better. That runs counter to the notion that minimal processing and a minimal signal path is the key to the highest fidelity. I appreciate the idea of an automated routine to set speaker levels and distance, and to check phase. I don't agree that Audyssey is some magic bullet that improves audio all the time, on every system. I think it often does more harm than good, versus a basic setup. This is often compounded by user error.

Who says it's a magic bullet, it's just one possible solution for people who can't or won't use acoustic treatment in their room. As for the notion for shorter signal path, and highest fidelity, yeah that's a notion alright a very old school one, which is why called them snobs. Audyssey was founded by people who spent most of their life to improve sound reproduction through modern science. Yes I agree it may not improve things in every situations, but to flat out dismiss it would only tell a tale about that person.

Oh yeah and if those speaker MFR's you mention at the show are so confident perhaps instead whispering on the floor to some spectators, they should just post a sign: "Not to be used with Audyssey since our speakers sounds the same in every room, much like in ours" rolleyes.gif
Edited by thehun - 4/26/13 at 8:41am
post #32 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

There is nothing outdated about the notion that a purer signal path results in better sound. That notion also applies to DSP. Nothing snobbish about it. 

Every receiver worth its salt also has a pure direct mode that bypasses Audyssey or similar room correction schemes, i
f the user so desires. 
I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone stop using it if it works for them.

Signal path only matters if the signal is analog from start to finish, say you listen to a TT or tapes, if the source is digital then it won't become an issue as long as the the conversion to analog is the last task. Most of us listen program material that way. Any processing before that won't act as shorter or longer pathway since the signal is digital and there is no chance for generational degradation. Normally it is the same CPU that perform all the task as well. So no DSP alone doesn't add to the signal length, only if D/A conversion precedes it, but even then it is up to the quality of the A/D converters to manifest anything you could perceive in a true DBT, which I doubt you could.

I didn't say you advocate stop using Audyssey [but you certainly exhibit a tremendous bias with nothing to back it up] , but one MFR rep told you confidently in confidence, right? wink.gif
post #33 of 157
Geez, why all the confrontational posts at AVS lately? rolleyes.gif
post #34 of 157
Yup, too many people thinks that because a unit comes with room correction system, anybody can just place a mic and do the "calibration". That is just not true.
post #35 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post



DSP bypass does what I describe, as opposed to true bypass which would be more useful for the kind of signal path you describe, where there is a D/A conversion before the processor. Interestingly, Onkyo (and other manufacturers) use the DSP bypass figure when publishing the frequency response specification of a receiver. I wonder why that is? 

DSP could mean many things, not engaging Room EQ is just one thing, there are several functions that remains including BM which could explain why Onkyo would use figures without any DSP functions engage, not to mention it could be used as a marketing tool to people who care for analog figures. See it wasn't so hard.
Quote:
I fully understand the position of Audyssey engineers, that their product typically does more good than it does harm. I figure that's especially true with the Pro installation, using a professional microphone and a laptop to perform a more advanced calibration. However, DSP still does amount to additional processing of the signal, so in effect that is increasing the signal path, even in the digital domain. 
Not in the way you like to believe it, of course some processing do alter the signal by it's function, like bass management, but when we talking about signal path and possible signal degradation , we referring unwanted effects like phase anomalies which happens with analog crossovers, especially passive ones, not to mention all the analog transistors and circuit boards in a typical AV receiver. Those could have far more detrimental effects on the signal then any amount of DSP manipulations. This is why I consider analog bypass as an oxymoron on a predominantly digital product, but hey it's marketing right.tongue.gif
Quote:
With the Krell Foundation, it is possible to apply room correction only to bass frequencies, effectively bypassing DSP for the more delicate treble. An all–analog signal path is provided for two channel listening. 

There is nothing new there , Denon or Onkyo could build something like that in drop of the hat if there was demand for it, and far less cheaper then Krell.
Quote:
Ultimately, the quality of one's system, and the attention paid to room treatment are major factors as to whether using a product like Audyssey is worthwhile. On the flipside, when Audyssey is going to be relied upon for room correction, then the skill of the person who does the calibration comes into play. My point was rather simple; if a system is of sufficiently high quality and the room is properly treated, then bypassing DSP can have a tangible positive impact on overall signal quality—especially for high frequencies. 
Except you didn't mention room treatment anywhere before which is why I called your expertise in question, in any case I already mention why and to whom Audyssey might be useful. Nice try though.
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Audyssey has many fans, and I understand the science behind what it does. I do think that the company uses typical marketing hyperbole in claiming that its product alone actually works properly. There certainly are competing products that also work. 
Very much like Krell and the so called "high end " does and often they have no solid science behind it at all, and they rely on useful pawns to pass the word.
post #36 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Geez, why all the confrontational posts at AVS lately? rolleyes.gif

Yeah I know some people dares to disagree, I hate it when that happens. rolleyes.gif
post #37 of 157
There is nothing wrong with disagreement, having a rude tone in the delivery of the disagreement that I have problem with.
post #38 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

There is nothing wrong with disagreement, having a rude tone in the delivery of the disagreement that I have problem with.

Yeah yours had that "chip on the shoulder" tone but I'm not here to nag. wink.gif
post #39 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I'm not sure you would still say that if you had a chance to audition some of the systems you so easily dismiss.

I've heard many high end systems, I used to visit these shows and most sounded awesome indeed, but not for the price they were asking for. One Legacy speaker demo by Bill Dudleston stands out as one worst high end system I've heard, and it was indeed because of bad room acoustics. The speakers were his top of the line sold for about $15k a pair at the time.
Quote:
I understand the appeal of Audyssey Multi-EQ vs. the high-end approach. One approach requires a lot of effort and money to achieve truly amazing fidelity, the other is a "magic button push" solution that promises the "miracle of fuzzy logic" will make the right decision about an overall EQ balance for the whole room, that makes every seat sound better. 

LOL no you don't understand it at all, just when I thought you've learned something, pity.
Quote:
When I hear a Krell-based system (or Mcintosh, or Mark Levinson, or VTL, or Pass Labs, and etc.) I tend to get goosebumps within a minute or two of the demo's beginning—something that has literally never, ever happened with an Audyssey-equipped Onkyo or Denon.
Of course you do, bias is a serious obstacle to overcome.
Quote:
That's about it for my argument. High-end = gossebumps. Audyssey = no goosebumps. Not exactly scientific, but definitely repeatable even in a double-blind scenario.

I agree it's repeatable, you would repeatably fail to identify the correct set up.
post #40 of 157
Could we please move this thread back to the Krell product at the New York Audio Show and away from Audyssey?
How does the new Krell Foundation compare to the 707, S-1200, S-1000, HTS 7.1, is this just a replacement for the Showcase processor?
post #41 of 157
What a terrific idea!
post #42 of 157
Krell's own Cipher SACD/CD Player - you can only get an analog signal out of it when playing SACDs, many of which are multi-channel up to 5.1
post #43 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

What device do you have that would be superior to the Foundation for 7.1 processing, that would make you want to use analog inputs instead?

Sorry I meant toquote this in my previous post.
post #44 of 157
Bump any new info.
post #45 of 157
I would like to know more about the Krell Foundation. The Krell unit has no video processing or upscaling. I am in a tossup between the new Marantz 8801 or the new Krell Foundation to put to my Krell amp.
post #46 of 157
I too am very interested in this product but at this point it seems to be somewhere between vaporware and a phantom. I am following the 8801 thread but I just do not feel comfortable about that product.

I have a Radiance XS for video. Highly recommended. My room is in need of good audio equalization and I want good SQ so I can spend even more money on new speakers.smile.gif
post #47 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by humbug2 View Post

I too am very interested in this product but at this point it seems to be somewhere between vaporware and a phantom. I am following the 8801 thread but I just do not feel comfortable about that product.

I have a Radiance XS for video. Highly recommended. My room is in need of good audio equalization and I want good SQ so I can spend even more money on new speakers.smile.gif

I asked Bill McKiegan about the availability of the Foundation, his response: "They are in high demand but they have been shipping since the NY show."
post #48 of 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by humbug2 View Post

I too am very interested in this product but at this point it seems to be somewhere between vaporware and a phantom. I am following the 8801 thread but I just do not feel comfortable about that product.

I have a Radiance XS for video. Highly recommended. My room is in need of good audio equalization and I want good SQ so I can spend even more money on new speakers.smile.gif

Have you been to a dealer? There is going to be less talk about a relatively new piece of equipment in the $6K+ range than something like the Marantz 8801.
post #49 of 157
Were there any Krell cd/sacd players on display?
post #50 of 157
I have found a couple user reviews. I haven't wanted to let the cat out of the bag for fear of not being able to find one when time to buy. This will be my next upgrade. Lets just say that.
post #51 of 157
Did I read it right that this unit has no OSD and no internal pink noise generator? Is the Auto Cal that great that we don't need pink noise to verify it sets the volumes correctly?
post #52 of 157
It pairs up with an IPad, No idea if that gets to an OSD for set up.

Pink noise is on calibration disks. And isn't the room EQ 500 Hz and down, on the Foundation?
post #53 of 157
I was under the impression that you can select what frequencies get eq. But I may be very wrong about that. I think you set an upper frequency and it eqs from there down.
post #54 of 157
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhale64L7 View Post

I was under the impression that you can select what frequencies get eq. But I may be very wrong about that. I think you set an upper frequency and it eqs from there down.

It's an option. With the Foundation, one can EQ the whole frequency range or restrict it to just bass.
post #55 of 157
Nice to know...
post #56 of 157
Thats what I thought. Thank you
post #57 of 157
Folks seem to overlook the Meridian G-series. I'm running a G61R fed by the HD621 HD switcher. Total package before any discounting is in the $8-$9K range so more than the new Krell, less than the Classe processors. The Meridian room correction SW deals only with frequencies below 250Hz and at least in my HT it has done an outstanding job of taming the bass. If this Krell had been available 12-14 months ago I would certainly have given it serious consideration - seems like a high-performing, well designed unit and certainly hits the "mid-high-end" price point that Classe and McIntosh have left behind with their premier products.

gordon
post #58 of 157
post #59 of 157
Merci Beaucoup!!
post #60 of 157
There is a review out for the Foundation. Unfortunately it is all in German. It is in Heimkino magazine. It looks from what I can see a pretty great review. If I could just read it.
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