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Up Grade Power Cord ???????? - Page 8  

post #211 of 419
Hi Giegar,
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

. . . but what's the track back to an addressing the OP's question?
. . .
What's the answer?
I believe the original poster made his decision back at post # 28. The rest of us simply refuse to go home.
post #212 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I find it pretty bizarre to be accused of having attitude by someone who seems only to be able to answer reasonable technical questions with personal attacks and other, irrelevant questions.

Indeed. If you look at his posting history in multiple forums, you'll find that, except in rare cases, all his posts are on the subject of wire and cable, when he himself has admitted that these things should make no difference in a properly designed system.

Given that admission, one might think that he would then dedicate himself to discussing design techniques that indeed make wire and cable irrelevant, but that is not the case. Instead, there is a history of him imposing himself upon every cable thread in every forum he visits, characterizing himself as some sort of guru, as a legend among "clowns" (his term).

As a cynic myself, I am of course suspicious that he is just some sort of shill or FUD-meister. If he actually knew anything outside of quasi-static EM theory, for which he is a one-trick pony, I would hope for some interesting output from him. But I am not holding my breath, as I have seen nothing resembling this so far. My expectations are of Commander McBragg-like assertions of superiority based on knowledge of irrelevant information.
post #213 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

Hi Giegar,
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

. . . but what's the track back to an addressing the OP's question?
. . .
What's the answer?
I believe the original poster made his decision back at post # 28. The rest of us simply refuse to go home.

... and why would we? It's entertaining! smile.gif

Yes Mark you're right. Sorry, I missed that.

I guess I was attempting to draw the combatants back to a logical conclusion for the non-sparkies still following along. This average bloke would still like to know what all this electrical theory really means for me when plugging in a bit of gear. wink.gif
post #214 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

YO.....arny..

You never answered the question. I'll repeat it.
Yo....jneutron..
You never answered the question so I'll repeat it:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1369578/i-was-wondering-can-anyone-explain-t-me-how-a-upgraded-power-cord-can-help/930#post_21273647

The question was, "Can you name some audio equipment made in recent decades with design issues which make them susceptible to the stock cord causing audible problem?" You know, the one you can hear? You must know some since you are addressing it (meaning that you've heard it already).

Lets try again. Can you name some of those equipments?
post #215 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

The above technical exchange between a bunch of clever blokes is all very amusing (and right over my head), but what's the track back to an addressing the OP's question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post


need some advice, should i upgrade my blueray players power cord and my receivers powercord????

What's the answer?

Executive Summary:

Don't bother to upgrade power cables in order to improve sound quality. It is a humongous long shot. There is a long list of other things that you can do to your audio system will be far more likely to bear audible fruit. It is so unlikely to actually reliably make an improvement that it wouldn't be worth your trouble to swap out an existing cable, even if I sent you an alleged upgrade for free. If you are reading an audio publication and you find a serious article in it promoting power cable upgrades, you have reasonable cause to doubt anything and everything else you read in it.
post #216 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

Little Jimmy Neutron, as usual you seems to think that the ONLY solution to a problem is redesigning the entire grid structure and replacing every component with sometghing that YOU approve of. Sorry to break it to you but most of US live in the real world. You have a great tendency to not only want to build a clock, but custom grind all the gears as well as mine the raw materials when all that was necessary was to look at an existing clock.

If you get your rocks off insulting everyone else that is fine(and we all know you do), I hope you enjoy yourself. That being said, try walking into any studio or production house and spout your diatribe. Just be prepared to be shown the door. No one questions your mastery of useless minutiae. you are the master. The only problem is that YOUR concepts would be an abject waste of money and time and the end results would be IDENTICAL.

Lord, if only the engineering world would folloow Little Jimmy Neutron's lessons the sun would shine brighter and all would be right in the world.

You deserve your own private post, not a multi.

Floobydust diversion number 1:
Quote:
as usual you seems to think that the ONLY solution to a problem is redesigning the entire grid structure and replacing every component with sometghing that YOU approve of
I call this BS out. I never provided a solution which calls for redesigning the power grid. Very poor diversionary attempt.

What I have said, is that the proper application of the basic tenets of EMC practice will drastically reduce the need to worry about ground loop or pin 1 problems. That way, even a "professional" doesn't need to build into a job quote the cost of a full blown input transformer isolation block to stave off problems. As I recall, this is what you did on a job.

Floobydust diversion number 2:
Quote:
You have a great tendency to not only want to build a clock, but custom grind all the gears as well as mine the raw materials when all that was necessary was to look at an existing clock.
When designing and building a clock, especially a wooden gear clock, the choice of tooth gear profile is very important. It becomes EXTREMELY important if the pallet/verge assembly is a recoil design, as while the standard involute and cycloidal gearing does allow for reversal, lantern pinions do not. Also, train reversal can be extremely wearing on the contact surfaces especially when changing humidity conditions in the room causes the gear dimensions to change, making the meshing non optimal, requiring heavier weights or stronger springs, and even then causing the train to stop. Although I use multiple coats of water based poly to seal the wood, it's not the end all. For antique clocks, I rarely have to grind new gears, but have on occasion tin/silver soldered new brass in to replace broken teeth.

Existing clocks of course, carry engineering tradeoffs..French clocks have tighter tolerances, but american ones with lantern pinions tend to work better in the typical dusty home environment. And of course, everybody understands the problems that setback thermostats can raise with uncompensated pendulums right??

Floobydust diversion number 3:
Quote:
If you get your rocks off insulting everyone else that is fine(and we all know you do), I hope you enjoy yourself.
Actually, no. But I gotta tell ya, handing you your head on a platter is more of a shall we say, perk?

My calling you a clown is a response to a stimulus, goofball...your stimulus.

Floobydust diversion number 4:
Quote:
That being said, try walking into any studio or production house and spout your diatribe. Just be prepared to be shown the door. No one questions your mastery of useless minutiae. you are the master. The only problem is that YOUR concepts would be an abject waste of money and time and the end results would be IDENTICAL.
I don't walk into any engineering situation cold. I am invited.

And typically the primary reason I am invited? Because some idiot who didn't understand EMC practice waffled about for years trying to stuff transformers in every nook and cranny lika a mcgyver.

Essentially, what you profess as "engineering", which is actually random acts of fixing attempts.

Post nice, get nice.

Post crap, get same.

Haven't you learned?

jn
post #217 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I have no idea what's in my current AVR, but my old tube preamp (ARC SP3a1), Dynaco Pass-3x, Hafler, and a couple of of SS preamps all had small-value resistors isolating signal ground from chassis (line safety) ground, as did several power amps I have used (I did not look at them all). Presumably to ensure the return current was through the cable shields to reduce potential EMC issues. Or maybe just because they found it sounded better, or -- more likely -- reduced the chance of ground loops in the system. This is somewhat interesting because it not only bolster's John's technical argument, but provides evidence that manufacturers have actually done something about it. It implies John is correct (which does make engineering sense, natch) but also that the premise (safety ground is lowest impedance) may be invalid for a number of components, by design.

FWIWFM - Don

It's problematic that code requires bonded grounding but really doesn't address the problems it raises. It's a big hole in the NEC.

jn
post #218 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Yo....jneutron..
You never answered the question so I'll repeat it:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1369578/i-was-wondering-can-anyone-explain-t-me-how-a-upgraded-power-cord-can-help/930#post_21273647

The question was, "Can you name some audio equipment made in recent decades with design issues which make them susceptible to the stock cord causing audible problem?" You know, the one you can hear? You must know some since you are addressing it (meaning that you've heard it already).

Lets try again. Can you name some of those equipments?

Did I miss the response?

JN, can we cut to the chase? Is what you describe likely to be audible?
post #219 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post

Recent Bill Whitlock (et al.) power line papers:

patent application:
Power Cable with Twisted and Untwisted Wires to Reduce Ground Loop Voltage
William E. Whitlock
Jamie M. Fox
warning: reading this application may turn your brain to mashed potatoes.

AES 2010 convention paper
Ground Loops The Rest of the Story
Bill Whitlock
Jamie Fox

March 17, 2010
The Conduit Transformer
Dale Shirk
Nice, thank you. I'll have to look it up. My first thought would be twisting hot and neutral independently of the ground wire so that the net coupling zero's out. I had built a triaxial line cord with #10 hot core, #12 braid neutral, and #12 braid external safety ground, but really was worried about ampacity due to all the insulating layers over the hot conductor.


Oh looky looky, another diversionary schtick. Not only that, but lies out the wazoo.... sigh, perks perks everywhere...
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post

Given that admission, one might think that he would then dedicate himself to discussing design techniques that indeed make wire and cable irrelevant, but that is not the case.

Guess yo didn't understand the technical stuff, eh??


I have detailed what the ground loop is, where it comes from, what it does, what the harmonic structure of it is, how to find it, how to test for susceptibility to it, how to divert ground currents to reduce sensitivity, where in amplifier topologies is the location I've found the biggest problem, and several personal cases where figuring it out and applying it ( and posting results). I've posted where others can go literature-wise to read about the pin 1 problem, where those sources are indeed weak, where they are strong. I've posted the names of experts in the field who go about the world and teach this stuff, troubleshoot designs that engineers messed up.

And I have been posting this stuff since 6/21/2004, the date of my earliest jpeg I've available on this hard drive.

If your gonna continue LYING, be a little more convincing, ok?? Or, at least clever.. you insult everybody with such a poor attempt.

jn

ps. I have 8 jpegs I tried to import, but once I drag the first one in, it opens full screen and doesn't allow me to continue. What am I doing wrong? Am I gonna hafta get a 6 year old in here to teach me what to do?? The kids are so smug when that happens..smile.gif
post #220 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Yo....jneutron..
You never answered the question so I'll repeat it:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1369578/i-was-wondering-can-anyone-explain-t-me-how-a-upgraded-power-cord-can-help/930#post_21273647

The question was, "Can you name some audio equipment made in recent decades with design issues which make them susceptible to the stock cord causing audible problem?" You know, the one you can hear? You must know some since you are addressing it (meaning that you've heard it already).

Lets try again. Can you name some of those equipments?

Any piece of pro equipment which exhibits a pin 1 problem is susceptible to line cord problems. Any piece of consumer equipment which exhibits any form of ground loop hum and noise pickup is susceptible to line cord problems.

Honestly, that'd probably be most equipment.

Me, I've detailed issues I've had with some QSC stuff, some SWTPC stuff, dynaco and NAD.

Imagine somebody, say, umm, Bill Whitlock (for example) , deciding that the stock line cord is a specific cause of ground loop coupling, and patents a design which gets around it by zeroing out the coupling mechanism?

I did that with a triaxial design AND POSTED IT ALL ONLINE back in 2007. the fact that Bill used the same concept with a different wire bundling design 5 years later and patented it..GOOD FOR HIM.

If the problem doesn't exist, then why would an industry leader patent it??

Sorry it took so long to answer, I'm guilty of ignoring you based on preconceived notions. I'll try to not make that same mistake again..

jn
post #221 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Any piece of pro equipment which exhibits a pin 1 problem is susceptible to line cord problems. Any piece of consumer equipment which exhibits any form of ground loop hum and noise pickup is susceptible to line cord problems.

Honestly, that'd probably be most equipment.

Me, I've detailed issues I've had with some QSC stuff, some SWTPC stuff, dynaco and NAD.

Imagine somebody, say, umm, Bill Whitlock (for example) , deciding that the stock line cord is a specific cause of ground loop coupling, and patents a design which gets around it by zeroing out the coupling mechanism?

I did that with a triaxial design AND POSTED IT ALL ONLINE back in 2007. the fact that Bill used the same concept with a different wire bundling design 5 years later and patented it..GOOD FOR HIM.

If the problem doesn't exist, then why would an industry leader patent it??

Sorry it took so long to answer, I'm guilty of ignoring you based on preconceived notions. I'll try to not make that same mistake again..

jn
Another diversionary schtick and still no answer.
post #222 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Did I miss the response?

JN, can we cut to the chase? Is what you describe likely to be audible?
There are several classes of effect..

Hum, buzz, noise, static sensitivity, all are clearly audible and overwhelmingly prevalent. Hence things like DI boxes, humbusters, ground isolators..This is the easiest to notice of course.

I've had instances where I could hear 60 hz buzzing after a powerful music transient, like a kick drum or bass or lead vocal which decayed rapidly followed by a quickly dying buzz. It was the cap bank recharging after a huge draw from the caps. Not as noticeable, but definitely heard after a while.

I've had a system oscillate because the power cords coupled the ground so much that there was a net positive feedback. The U/S was not audible, but the cap explosion was.

For subtle sound system changes such as soundstage stuff, I've had some weird occurrences, but since I was not concerned with it, I didn't go through any kind of DBT evaluation to establish the validity of my observations. It's entirely possible I was swayed by expectation bias, so really don't push my experience as entirely valid there.

To arbitrarily purchase a new and very expensive line cord to solve any soundstage thinkings, my opinion is, no, don't do it.. Given the state of EMC design of most consumer high end equipment, I believe that it would be a waste of time and money. And, the greater the manufacturer's "explanation" of new physics to explain why their product is better, the farther I'd run.

If you played around with cord locations, like power near IC's, and found that the system is sensitive to moving wires, then you really should fix the system. Cords are only indicative of a different underlying problem. Looking for a cord solution to the equipment sensitivities is too random.

Unfortunately, when "engineers" decide to trash people who believe they hear a difference (real or otherwise), those people have little choice but to ignore the engineers.

As an engineer, it really grates on my nerves to see fellow engineers with such closed minds. That is not my definition of engineering.

jn
post #223 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Another diversionary schtick and still no answer.
What a weird post. You have reminded me why I consider your posts of little value.

What part of "all" did you not understand?

jn
post #224 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Executive Summary:

Don't bother to upgrade power cables in order to improve sound quality. It is a humongous long shot. There is a long list of other things that you can do to your audio system will be far more likely to bear audible fruit. It is so unlikely to actually reliably make an improvement that it wouldn't be worth your trouble to swap out an existing cable, even if I sent you an alleged upgrade for free. If you are reading an audio publication and you find a serious article in it promoting power cable upgrades, you have reasonable cause to doubt anything and everything else you read in it.

Absolutely, positively, well stated. Nicely done.

Edit: I would also include overpriced IC's in your para. They too mess up the loop, and again, are not the primary cause.

I would include some kind of multiport supressor as well, and various things like system layout and room treatments I recall you've mentioned in the past.

Cheers, jn
Edited by jneutron - 4/25/13 at 8:01am
post #225 of 419
moderator

lots of reports on this thread: lots of insults flying around....could earn some members some infractions or a thread ban...
post #226 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

moderator

lots of reports on this thread: lots of insults flying around....could earn some members some infractions or a thread ban...
My apologies to Giz and arnyk. My remarks were out of bounds.

I will desist with purposeful insults, and apologize for any accidental ones.

John
post #227 of 419
OP-

yes, upgrade all power cord(s) in your system. Remember, those electronics companies will use the cheapest stock cord possible.
Additionally, a Wireworld HDMI cable will be very sweet on your Pioneer Elite Blu-ray player.
Keep me posted.
post #228 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post

OP-

yes, upgrade all power cord(s) in your system. Remember, those electronics companies will use the cheapest stock cord possible.
Additionally, a Wireworld HDMI cable will be very sweet on your Pioneer Elite Blu-ray player.
Keep me posted.
Cheap doesn't necessarily equate to bad. Nor does expensive equate to good.

The only place I'd worry is if the cords weren't UL listed. That would scare me.

jn
post #229 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

There are several classes of effect..

Hum, buzz, noise, static sensitivity, all are clearly audible and overwhelmingly prevalent. Hence things like DI boxes, humbusters, ground isolators..This is the easiest to notice of course.

I've had instances where I could hear 60 hz buzzing after a powerful music transient, like a kick drum or bass or lead vocal which decayed rapidly followed by a quickly dying buzz. It was the cap bank recharging after a huge draw from the caps. Not as noticeable, but definitely heard after a while.

I've had a system oscillate because the power cords coupled the ground so much that there was a net positive feedback. The U/S was not audible, but the cap explosion was.

For subtle sound system changes such as soundstage stuff, I've had some weird occurrences, but since I was not concerned with it, I didn't go through any kind of DBT evaluation to establish the validity of my observations. It's entirely possible I was swayed by expectation bias, so really don't push my experience as entirely valid there.

To arbitrarily purchase a new and very expensive line cord to solve any soundstage thinkings, my opinion is, no, don't do it.. Given the state of EMC design of most consumer high end equipment, I believe that it would be a waste of time and money. And, the greater the manufacturer's "explanation" of new physics to explain why their product is better, the farther I'd run.

If you played around with cord locations, like power near IC's, and found that the system is sensitive to moving wires, then you really should fix the system. Cords are only indicative of a different underlying problem. Looking for a cord solution to the equipment sensitivities is too random.

Unfortunately, when "engineers" decide to trash people who believe they hear a difference (real or otherwise), those people have little choice but to ignore the engineers.

As an engineer, it really grates on my nerves to see fellow engineers with such closed minds. That is not my definition of engineering.

jn

Perhaps I missed it, but I can't find anything in your response that suggests that power cables are audibly impactful other than those that would seemingly be resolved by a normal well shielded cable and sensible cable routing. Haven't seen many posts on exploding caps, so while I won't argue that its a possible outcome, it doesn't seem to be prevalent in the consumer market.

Am I not understanding or are we discussing issues that exist but don't rise to audible within a typical HT system? From a content reproduction standpoint, I'm only interested in issues that would be audible and that could be resolved by the single act of changing one working power cord to another.
post #230 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Perhaps I missed it, but I can't find anything in your response that suggests that power cables are audibly impactful other than those that would seemingly be resolved by a normal well shielded cable and sensible cable routing. Haven't seen many posts on exploding caps, so while I won't argue that its a possible outcome, it doesn't seem to be prevalent in the consumer market.

Am I not understanding or are we discussing issues that exist but don't rise to audible within a typical HT system? From a content reproduction standpoint, I'm only interested in issues that would be audible and that could be resolved by the single act of changing one working power cord to another.
Hum, buzz, 60 hz infiltration during transients, all may be fixed by power cord. Also may not be fixed..

Soundstage, give it a try if you wish, but nobody can actually recommend the best cord or solution to a particular system.

Unfortunately, shielding for magnetic fields within the audio band is useless at the wire level. My cord solution put the conductors coaxial to prevent magnetic fields outside of the neutral braid, Bill Whitlocks solution is to twist the hot/neutral to zero out current coupling to ground. Both have good and bad points.

As arny stated, you're better off fixing other things. We both agree that any effect and fix via line cords would be totally random, if any at all.

If you have a really really discerning system which presents an excellent soundstage, you might change it via cord.. Problem is expectation bias.

HT systems? Just use the stock cord. Upgrade if you want quality in construction, but not for sound changes.

jn
post #231 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post

Recent Bill Whitlock (et al.) power line papers:

patent application:
Power Cable with Twisted and Untwisted Wires to Reduce Ground Loop Voltage
William E. Whitlock
Jamie M. Fox
warning: reading this application may turn your brain to mashed potatoes.

AES 2010 convention paper
Ground Loops The Rest of the Story
Bill Whitlock
Jamie Fox

March 17, 2010
The Conduit Transformer
Dale Shirk
Speedskater.

I again thank you for your post. I downloaded Bill's indy-aes-2012 seminar presentation, and find it to be exceptionally well organized and very very good. I recommend everybody get it and study it.

As is usual for me, I do have a few nitpicks and comments. (wouldn't want to dissapoint)tongue.gif

page 6. I have a t-shirt almost like that, but the helmet has GUT across the top..
page 14. There is no such thing as inductance of one wire, it needs a loop to measure. A 10 foot length of zip would be about 2 uH, he's measuring the loop formed by the wire and the test leads.
Page 22, he shows an autotransformer and calls it a transformer. On the west coast of the USA, they are indeed transformers. You can tell by the number of hv bushings on the top.
page 31. While giz accused me of wanting to redesign the grid, Whitlock does indeed do just that, at least the conduit runs within buildings.
Page 32. Not sure how to approach this. The exact midpoint is not a magnetic null zone. That error doesn't ruin any following discussion though.
page 35. Note the three orders of magnitude drop as a consequence of twisting L-N.
page 43. He did not mention that there can be ground differences between outlets in a daisy chain by coupling between the meter leads and the ground conductor. He incorrectly thinks only IR drop here, yet does indeed consider induction throughout the paper.
page 53. His understanding of sub wavelength mismatched T-lines needs work. His statement however, is accurate when at least one end is terminated matched.
page 83..""The pin 1 problem- a designed in defect""..truer words were never spoken. He should add "and currents along the chassis".
page 99. He still needs to learn about sub wavelength t-lines where both ends are mismatched. Otherwise, good slide.
page 115 EXCELLENT...He finally addressed the pin 1 problem for outputs... man, I've harped on that for years.
page 125..""commerce without conscience"" what a great phrase...
page 209. Ground isolators..I absolutely agree with him, I worked in a diode manu arena, and agree with him 1000 percent..


Excellent, excellent. I absolutely recommend everybody read this!!! I don't care if my comments are believed or not, all would be served well to read this..

Speedy...again, I thank you..

John
post #232 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Speedskater.

I again thank you for your post. I downloaded Bill's indy-aes-2012 seminar presentation, and find it to be exceptionally well organized and very very good. I recommend everybody get it and study it.

As is usual for me, I do have a few nitpicks and comments. (wouldn't want to dissapoint)tongue.gif

page 6. I have a t-shirt almost like that, but the helmet has GUT across the top..
page 14. There is no such thing as inductance of one wire, it needs a loop to measure. A 10 foot length of zip would be about 2 uH, he's measuring the loop formed by the wire and the test leads.
Page 22, he shows an autotransformer and calls it a transformer. On the west coast of the USA, they are indeed transformers. You can tell by the number of hv bushings on the top.
page 31. While giz accused me of wanting to redesign the grid, Whitlock does indeed do just that, at least the conduit runs within buildings.
Page 32. Not sure how to approach this. The exact midpoint is not a magnetic null zone. That error doesn't ruin any following discussion though.
page 35. Note the three orders of magnitude drop as a consequence of twisting L-N.
page 43. He did not mention that there can be ground differences between outlets in a daisy chain by coupling between the meter leads and the ground conductor. He incorrectly thinks only IR drop here, yet does indeed consider induction throughout the paper.
page 53. His understanding of sub wavelength mismatched T-lines needs work. His statement however, is accurate when at least one end is terminated matched.
page 83..""The pin 1 problem- a designed in defect""..truer words were never spoken. He should add "and currents along the chassis".
page 99. He still needs to learn about sub wavelength t-lines where both ends are mismatched. Otherwise, good slide.
page 115 EXCELLENT...He finally addressed the pin 1 problem for outputs... man, I've harped on that for years.
page 125..""commerce without conscience"" what a great phrase...
page 209. Ground isolators..I absolutely agree with him, I worked in a diode manu arena, and agree with him 1000 percent..


Excellent, excellent. I absolutely recommend everybody read this!!! I don't care if my comments are believed or not, all would be served well to read this..

Speedy...again, I thank you..

John
Thx for the brief John....its interesting learning this stuff but the majority would like I'm sure layman's terms...smile.gif....I've followed a lot of your posts on the GON and you always present great info...I created an anti cable thread in this sub forum a while ago to discuss speaker cable and I was questioned like crazy on it...lol.I am not an EE but I love to learn and find all of this fascinating.Thanks again for your input and knowledge...its fun to learn this stuff in this hobby.

Take care,
Josh
post #233 of 419
images withdrawn from gallery.
jn
Edited by jneutron - 5/6/13 at 8:03am
post #234 of 419
I just followed the link with the above image, to your gallery of related images,...much appreciated stuff there.

As soon as time permits, I'll likely examine those closer and hit you up for clarification, if need be.

Good stuff.
post #235 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I just followed the link with the above image, to your gallery of related images,...much appreciated stuff there.

As soon as time permits, I'll likely examine those closer and hit you up for clarification, if need be.

Good stuff.

Please hit me up for corrections as well if you find errors..

Thanks, john
post #236 of 419
Just amazed at how many thousands of professional audio visual productions are handled world wide by using and combining grid power, multiple power ties within a building from separate transformers, show generators with portable distro drops at the end of hundreds of feet of cable, truck-mounted satt uplink trucks with their own generators, recording trucks, PA systems, video production with on-line editing, analog and digital controls and signals, communication links, etc and all without any ground issues.

Yes sometimes a DI (usually used to balance a single ended signal feed) or ground isolation transformer is required for audio, video or both but not always. My question is if the system wokrks and the signals are clean and within spec, what is the problem? We cannot redesign the facility and all the equipment to be used.

BTW, since we switched to Canare quadstar cables (other manufacturers have similar construction) noise and hum from harnessed racks and especially portable spaghetti piles has been eliminated.

If old school and proven rack construction techniques are followed noise and hum is usually a non issue. Power cords have never been an issue aside from excessive length. That is why we cut them and re terminate or sub factory made short cables.
post #237 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

LOL to the recent comments, and interesting to watch from the stands, so to speak!

+1 Finally.... Kudos John....
post #238 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

Just amazed at how many thousands of professional audio visual productions are handled world wide by using and combining grid power, multiple power ties within a building from separate transformers, show generators with portable distro drops at the end of hundreds of feet of cable, truck-mounted satt uplink trucks with their own generators, recording trucks, PA systems, video production with on-line editing, analog and digital controls and signals, communication links, etc and all without any ground issues.

Yes sometimes a DI (usually used to balance a single ended signal feed) or ground isolation transformer is required for audio, video or both but not always. My question is if the system wokrks and the signals are clean and within spec, what is the problem? We cannot redesign the facility and all the equipment to be used.

BTW, since we switched to Canare quadstar cables (other manufacturers have similar construction) noise and hum from harnessed racks and especially portable spaghetti piles has been eliminated.

If old school and proven rack construction techniques are followed noise and hum is usually a non issue. Power cords have never been an issue aside from excessive length. That is why we cut them and re terminate or sub factory made short cables.

Hey, don't blame me...Bill Whitlock's the one who's disagreeing with you.

Why don't you read the presentation? He had tons of good stuff on what's wrong with power delivery, pro grounding schemes, pin 1 design flaws.... You have much to learn my little grasshopper. And hey, you can learn it from Bill, you don't ever have to admit that I'm right. or heaven forbid, you learned something from me....

Actually, you don't have to bother, Bill Whitlock just loves the business of "pros" like you who end up buying tens and hundreds of pieces of his product. to band-aid fix problems of your own design.

I do love your use of the term "portable spaghetti piles".. I have to remember that..

If your ever here on the opposite coast, give me a pm. Be fun to see a face behind the 'tude..

jn
post #239 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

Just amazed at how many thousands of professional audio visual productions are handled world wide by using and combining grid power, multiple power ties within a building from separate transformers, show generators with portable distro drops at the end of hundreds of feet of cable, truck-mounted satt uplink trucks with their own generators, recording trucks, PA systems, video production with on-line editing, analog and digital controls and signals, communication links, etc and all without any ground issues.
Yah, small to medium size systems are pretty easy to get up and running, yes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

We cannot redesign the facility and all the equipment to be used.
That has always been my point. You and your compatriots don't have either the time or wherewhithall(sp) to redesign the facilities nor the equipment to prevent the problem You typically only have time to setup, fix if needed, then go.

I, on the other hand, CAN redesign the equipment and facility to reduce the problems. Bill Whitlock is also devoting much effort to this end.

For you to blindly say the problem doesn't exist (ignoring of course bill's patent as well as his presentations to the AES) has no value to those who actually are impacted by these problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

Power cords have never been an issue aside from excessive length. That is why we cut them and re terminate or sub factory made short cables.
Well, there again, looks like you're disagreeing with Bill Whitlock there dude..look at the graph with 3 orders of magnitude difference between two conductor geometries..

But I have to agree with you on the length thing..sigh, one size fits all....and piles up..

jn
post #240 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

problems of your own design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

For you to blindly say the problem doesn't exist
What kind of problem, audible one?
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