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Up Grade Power Cord ???????? - Page 9  

post #241 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post


What kind of problem, audible one?

Oh just read for goodness sake.

jn
post #242 of 419
You seem to have edited Mr Whitlock's dissertations a bit too much. He does NOT say that these issues WILL arise, he says they MAY arise.

And the question is still this. What is the down side to using a transformer to solve a problem? As I said, those of us in the real world deal with what we are dealt and make it work.
post #243 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

You seem to have edited Mr Whitlock's dissertations a bit too much. He does NOT say that these issues WILL arise, he says they MAY arise.

And the question is still this. What is the down side to using a transformer to solve a problem? As I said, those of us in the real world deal with what we are dealt and make it work.
Even you should know that I can't edit his dissertation, silly. So why state such an erroneous thing?? edit: and gee, why make recommendations to eliminate a problem before construction if it's not proven that there will be a problem?? That's why we engineer it giz, to guarantee people like you don't have the problem.. When you find out, it's too late. Leaving you with the transformer bag, so to speak..

Read the whole thing, you may learn a thing or two.

He makes a living fixing these problems Giz. No problem, no living.

And if all it took is transformers (read band aids), then you'd think that a transformer manufacturer would think twice about going around detailing how to make systems which do not require transformers..

Real world...you make me laugh with your glib quips... You work with small to medium size systems, you don't design the buildings, you don't run the trays or load them for the infrastructure, you just use off the shelf equipment. Wish I had that luxury..

edit: hey, do you have to use low smoke zero halogen wire? Man, is it a PITA? It's amazingly stiff...we had to run twisted pairs of 535 kcmil out in 1200 foot runs, quad arranged 373, and honkin quantities of 262 twisted pair.. I was thinking you might have to use that since your stuff is for venues where the public goes.

Bet you love playing with the toys, no? Me, I certainly do. With luck, we'll never grow up.

jn
Edited by jneutron - 4/25/13 at 1:03pm
post #244 of 419
Don't buy a power cord unless it's been tested using a dual-column gas chromatograph, Hewlett-Packard model 5710a with flame analyzing detectors.
post #245 of 419
The problem is JN that YOU do not deal with audio visual systems. No onme else here deals with your specialty and that is fine. You simply have to accept the fact that AV suystems are installed in homes and commercial buildings that are designed with all the utilities structure etc for the GENERAL purpose of the building and that audio visual systems are secondar;. THEREFORE, workarounds are occassionally needed.

You STILL seem unable to answer the question and the down side of transformers solving a problem.

Query: Suppose I am considering hiring you to install an audio visual system for a recording and satt uplink in an existing building and to do so within a budget. Is your first response to me as the owner that ALL of the building's existing electrical system including all cabling, conduits, fixtures etc will need to be removed or revamped to comply with YOUR perceived requiremnts before you install the system I want?

I am curious why you are so enamored of insisting that the building must be reconfigured. We make these systems work wherever we are asked . And the really funny things is, they DO work and quite well. The issues you are so anal about are encountered everywhere and yet the AV systems are still working just fine.

You STILL have not justified why we should get so worked up about a situation that cannot be financially justified for rebuilding/rewiring a building if the AV engineers make it work successfully. As I said the minutiae that so envelops your efforts are notquite as important in the real world as you would like to have folks believe. If they were, you would be under contract all over the world 24/7 to undo what others have no issue with.

BTW, when I used the term 'edit' as it relates to Bill Whitlock's writings, I OBVIOUSLY was not inferring an actual text edit of his publications. Rather I was inferring that your paraphrasing of his concepts was edited as far as your presentation of his overall field of endeavor is concerned.
post #246 of 419
Is it time yet to bring up wireless power?

biggrin.gif

Nevermind, I just wanted to see some "expensive snake oil power cords make a difference" heads explode.
post #247 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Oh just read for goodness sake.

jn
Let me remind you, this is audio forum, you know, something we hear. Other than using up the forum bandwidth, what good do you think it does when you keep posting irrelevant stuff?
post #248 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

I am curious why you are so enamored of insisting that the building must be reconfigured. We make these systems work wherever we are asked . And the really funny things is, they DO work and quite well. The issues you are so anal about are encountered everywhere and yet the AV systems are still working just fine.

You STILL have not justified why we should get so worked up about a situation that cannot be financially justified for rebuilding/rewiring a building if the AV engineers make it work successfully. As I said the minutiae that so envelops your efforts are notquite as important in the real world as you would like to have folks believe. If they were, you would be under contract all over the world 24/7 to undo what others have no issue with.
He's been through this before: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1340051/seeking-education-about-those-ultra-expensive-interconnects/1050#post_20643004
post #249 of 419
Sweet Jesus......JNs posts are enjoyed by most, and a learning experience, even for the EEs...
yours on the other hand...... talk about irrelevant....rolleyes.gif
Do I have to read....but is it audible??...or dance move #....one more time??.....Why?????
Let others champion your cause.....theyre better at it.
post #250 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Executive Summary:

Don't bother to upgrade power cables in order to improve sound quality. It is a humongous long shot. There is a long list of other things that you can do to your audio system will be far more likely to bear audible fruit. It is so unlikely to actually reliably make an improvement that it wouldn't be worth your trouble to swap out an existing cable, even if I sent you an alleged upgrade for free. If you are reading an audio publication and you find a serious article in it promoting power cable upgrades, you have reasonable cause to doubt anything and everything else you read in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

To arbitrarily purchase a new and very expensive line cord to solve any soundstage thinkings, my opinion is, no, don't do it.. Given the state of EMC design of most consumer high end equipment, I believe that it would be a waste of time and money. And, the greater the manufacturer's "explanation" of new physics to explain why their product is better, the farther I'd run.

If you played around with cord locations, like power near IC's, and found that the system is sensitive to moving wires, then you really should fix the system. Cords are only indicative of a different underlying problem. Looking for a cord solution to the equipment sensitivities is too random.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Executive Summary:

Don't bother to upgrade power cables in order to improve sound quality. It is a humongous long shot. There is a long list of other things that you can do to your audio system will be far more likely to bear audible fruit. It is so unlikely to actually reliably make an improvement that it wouldn't be worth your trouble to swap out an existing cable, even if I sent you an alleged upgrade for free. If you are reading an audio publication and you find a serious article in it promoting power cable upgrades, you have reasonable cause to doubt anything and everything else you read in it.

Absolutely, positively, well stated. Nicely done.

Edit: I would also include overpriced IC's in your para. They too mess up the loop, and again, are not the primary cause.

I would include some kind of multiport supressor as well, and various things like system layout and room treatments I recall you've mentioned in the past.

Cheers, jn

Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Cheap doesn't necessarily equate to bad. Nor does expensive equate to good.

The only place I'd worry is if the cords weren't UL listed. That would scare me.

jn

Thank you Arnold. Thank you JN.

All good stuff! smile.gif

If you don't mind, I'll bookmark this for use when this subject comes up in future.

Carry on.



{... retreats back to peanut gallery...}
post #251 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

The problem is JN that YOU do not deal with audio visual systems. No onme else here deals with your specialty and that is fine. You simply have to accept the fact that AV suystems are installed in homes and commercial buildings that are designed with all the utilities structure etc for the GENERAL purpose of the building and that audio visual systems are secondar;. THEREFORE, workarounds are occassionally needed.
I do indeed deal with audio visual systems. It is obviously not as large a scale as you are used to dealing with, but I do indeed work with it. It is a very very small subset of what I have to to and encounter of course, my work is DC to 500 Mhz, with systems that are sensitive to 60 pSec variations in fibers and heliax, as well as a whole magilla of single ended equipment typically 50 meters away from the transducers.

As far as workarounds, you far too easily accept the premise that there will be problems so therefore workarounds. Given that you sell yourself and pride yourself on your ability to figure out workarounds, you obviously have no desire to either understand nor fix the root cause. Not bad in itself, but certainly not my cup of tea.

I prefer to identify the root cause and fix THAT. You pride yourself on being able to mcgyver a fix in the nick of time as it were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

You STILL seem unable to answer the question and the down side of transformers solving a problem.
The fact that transformers are needed. You don't attack the root cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

Query: Suppose I am considering hiring you to install an audio visual system for a recording and satt uplink in an existing building and to do so within a budget. Is your first response to me as the owner that ALL of the building's existing electrical system including all cabling, conduits, fixtures etc will need to be removed or revamped to comply with YOUR perceived requiremnts before you install the system I want?
No, my little grasshopper. If I were approached to install all that, the first thing I would do is hire somebody like you who has the experience to get it done.. Is that so difficult to understand?

My point of entry for large jobs is when the building is being designed, the bonding and power structure is on paper, the cable trays and conduits are yet to be routed. After I am through, then someone like you would be called in. And when you arrive, you would find that the cable tray structure has been bonded externally, and partitions assigned by NEC category, but even moreso, segragated by signal/sensitivity (victim/agressor as it were). Additionally, I would provide rules for wire to wire compatibility, like making sure the twist pitch of low level and high current wiring are not integer related when they cannot be separated by a conductive partition wall. (look up cat5e).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

You STILL have not justified why we should get so worked up about a situation that cannot be financially justified for rebuilding/rewiring a building if the AV engineers make it work successfully. As I said the minutiae that so envelops your efforts are notquite as important in the real world as you would like to have folks believe. If they were, you would be under contract all over the world 24/7 to undo what others have no issue with.
No, you are simply trying to alter my stance to an untenable one so that you can shoot it down. It's called building a strawman. And it isn't getting over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

BTW, when I used the term 'edit' as it relates to Bill Whitlock's writings, I OBVIOUSLY was not inferring an actual text edit of his publications. Rather I was inferring that your paraphrasing of his concepts was edited as far as your presentation of his overall field of endeavor is concerned.
Ah, ok. Fair enough.

And actually, I provided a page by page errata and kudu's post to make it clear where he is right, where he is wrong, and where he is excellent. Whitlock also has taken the stance that the root cause needs to be fixed. The fact that fixing the root cause may put you out of your mcgyver style of heroism, well clearly neither Bill nor I care.

jn
Edited by jneutron - 4/26/13 at 6:12am
post #252 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Is it time yet to bring up wireless power?

biggrin.gif.
Would you believe they've arranged sufficient funds to put up the Tesla museum here? I think they are actually going to re-build the tower. Luckily, they aren't going to duplicate the Tesla coil for it.

jn
post #253 of 419
images withdrawn from gallery.
jn
Edited by jneutron - 5/6/13 at 8:03am
post #254 of 419
images withdrawn from gallery.
jn
Edited by jneutron - 5/6/13 at 8:04am
post #255 of 419
Yo, beaveav

To reiterate:
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

I've read enough of your posts over the years to know that you simply like to ask questions in order to show off how smart you are.

The direct answer: No, entirely incorrect.

If you are actually an EE involved in design of audio equipment, you may or may not know or understand the techniques I've known about since about 2004, I've added them to this thread and put the drawings in my gallery.

The reason I do this is for the advancement of the science. Nothing more, nothing less.

As is evident by dating, Bill Whitlock is now including material and understandings I posted on AA or AH I believe, back in either 2004 or 2008. AV Science advances as a consequence.

I even figured out why he erred with that no field thing in between conductors. It was from posts back in 2004 where I detailed where a second grounding wire needed to be in order to NOT loop trap any flux generated by the wire pair. It was within a discussion about stapling two romex's one on top of the other. I kinda wish he'd have asked me, but it is what it is..

However,


For you or anyone else to get your panties in a dither such that your reaction is to accuse me of posting for the sake of ego, is unprofessional.

If you are indeed what you say you are, you are most welcome to discuss the test methods if you wish. If you study and understand my drawings, you will most likely be able to answer the questions I posed to you. If you learn something from it, you gain.

jn

ps..deleted a descriptor
post #256 of 419
images withdrawn from gallery.
jn
Edited by jneutron - 5/6/13 at 8:04am
post #257 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perry R View Post

Do I have to read....but is it audible??...or dance move #....one more time??.....Why?????
.
Why? Because this is a AUDIO, the 'A', in AVS forum, not en EE forum. While the deep dive into engineering may be interesting and could result in understanding measurable differences in environments, if it's not audible, I'm not sure this is the right forum to get into the details.

As for JN's detailed and lengthy posts, here is a very important quote from one that stands out. Unfortunately, the rest of his posts don't do much more then give the believers hope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

HT systems? Just use the stock cord. Upgrade if you want quality in construction, but not for sound changes.

jn
post #258 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post

Why? Because this is a AUDIO, the 'A', in AVS forum, not en EE forum. While the deep dive into engineering may be interesting and could result in understanding measurable differences in environments, if it's not audible, I'm not sure this is the right forum to get into the details.
Hmmm..what about the "S"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post

As for JN's detailed and lengthy posts, here is a very important quote from one that stands out. Unfortunately, the rest of his posts don't do much more then give the believers hope.
Interesting. We all walk away with what we want.

Perhaps you would be more comfortable in a forum where the word "science" is not part of the site's name (the S in AVS), and where the word theory (this forum's title, Audio theory, setup...) also does not exist.

I have very clearly detailed how power cords can indeed alter the sound of a system, and I have done so by theory, diagrams, explanations, results of personal experience. I point out that things I've been detailing 5 to 8 years ago are now beginning to surface in the speakings of the big guys. And the BIG plus, is I provide test methodologies which allow the engineers to actually measure, understand, and correct the problems.

You obviously are more comfortable in a forum where anybody who claims they hear a difference is castigated, ridiculed, and casually dismissed by self professed "engineers" who use "engineering and physics" to prove that it cannot happen, they are hearing things and deserve to be denigrated in a pig pile mentality.

As I have shown, the engineering out there has a very long way to go. The state of the art out there in terms of EMC understanding of audio equipment is only now beginning to catch up to posts I made in 2002. Yet you wish to revert the discussion to what??

jn

ps. This is NOT heavy engineering I've been putting up here, it's just the basics.
Edited by jneutron - 4/26/13 at 2:01pm
post #259 of 419
^^^^^Still playing in the pepper!
Edited by Just cruising - 4/26/13 at 3:36pm
post #260 of 419
Solution: EVERY word that JN utters and commits to paper is God's honest truth. There is no possibility of his being in error in any way , shape or fashion.

All pay heed while we are regaled with tons of useless but accurate information on the totally inaudible effects of these fields on any audio system currentrly installed or in the design phase.

How's that?
post #261 of 419
I had a complete physical last week. My doctor apparently needed to make a yacht payment, the all-inclusive package included a stress-echo test. There was little else to do but fret about my chest being shaved, so while waiting I inspected the power cords going into all of this ultra - sensitive healthcare equipment. Now I will admit that aesthetics may be less important in the fields of cardiology and radiology, and behind those plain black wrappers there may have been 6' of $500 copper, but the leashes that tethered this equipment to the wall appeared no different than those which power my computer, my printer, my AVR or amplifier.

Someone should notify the healthcare industry of the same phenomenal breakthrough currently afforded the gullible in audio. Lives could be saved.
post #262 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

so while waiting I inspected the power cords going into all of this ultra - sensitive healthcare equipment. Now I will admit that aesthetics may be less important in the fields of cardiology and radiology, and behind those plain black wrappers there may have been 6' of $500 copper, but the leashes that tethered this equipment to the wall appeared no different than those which power my computer, my printer, my AVR or amplifier.
There are power cords and plugs called hospital grade. They are sturdy built and tighter fit so that they don't come off the wall outlet so easily.
post #263 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

You obviously are more comfortable in a forum where anybody who claims they hear a difference is castigated, ridiculed, and casually dismissed by self professed "engineers" who use "engineering and physics" to prove that it cannot happen, they are hearing things and deserve to be denigrated in a pig pile mentality.
In terms of your ability to read minds, don't quit your day job cause you're very bad at it.

The "S" is an important part and it's valuable to understand what things do make an audible difference. But if you can't hear the difference, then the science becomes an interesting and academic pursuit only. Reading your posts is like the old joke about asking someone for the time and instead they tell you how to build a clock, over and over again, and in excruciating detail. But after they're done, despite the smug and obvious satisfied look on their face, they still haven't told you what time it is.

I know your're smart John, really I do and I think your knowledge and insights could be an invaluable resource if you would only use it in the real world of AV. But until you start to look at the real equipment in this world and analyze it to understand the actual impact it has to our eyes and ears, I'm afraid the mental masturbation while self gratifying leaves me cold.

It's funny, I quoted one sentence of yours which I thought summarized your thoughts on power cables in HT. But you weren't even able to accept what you wrote, you had to pontificate and ultimately obfuscate yet again.
post #264 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

Solution: EVERY word that JN utters and commits to paper is God's honest truth. There is no possibility of his being in error in any way , shape or fashion.

All pay heed while we are regaled with tons of useless but accurate information on the totally inaudible effects of these fields on any audio system currentrly installed or in the design phase.

How's that?

As an exercise in stupid utterances, you did good.

As an exercise in emotional intelligence, quite dismal.

Look at the lot of you. You are more comfortable in a setting where everybody agrees, and you all pigpile on those who don't. It would be really nice if you guys learned something...

But I do not hold my breath. I've detailed the engineering involved, you refuse to get it because it might provide comfort to the enemy.. Small world you live in. Not mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

I had a complete physical last week. My doctor apparently needed to make a yacht payment, the all-inclusive package included a stress-echo test. There was little else to do but fret about my chest being shaved, so while waiting I inspected the power cords going into all of this ultra - sensitive healthcare equipment. Now I will admit that aesthetics may be less important in the fields of cardiology and radiology, and behind those plain black wrappers there may have been 6' of $500 copper, but the leashes that tethered this equipment to the wall appeared no different than those which power my computer, my printer, my AVR or amplifier.

Someone should notify the healthcare industry of the same phenomenal breakthrough currently afforded the gullible in audio. Lives could be saved.

Clearly you have no concept. EKG's and EEg's are VERY controlled with respect to ground currents, they have to be given the bandwidth and level of the signals. Didn't you know, one of the cardio leads is the ground reference lead?? Did you know all medical equipment is hipot tested for ground leakage?

Consumer audio takes no care with that.

It's not the power cords, silly..so might as well stop the floob.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post

I know your're smart John, really I do and I think your knowledge and insights could be an invaluable resource if you would only use it in the real world of AV.
Smart has nothing to do with it. Whitlock is starting to apply to the professional world of AV, what I've been posting since 2002. Despite all you attempts to belittle me, the industry is moving forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post

But until you start to look at the real equipment in this world and analyze it to understand the actual impact it has to our eyes and ears, I'm afraid the mental masturbation while self gratifying leaves me cold.

Again with the crap. Listen up. The pro's are starting to get it. They are looking at the real equipment, they are looking at the real installations. And they are applying 11 year old content to that REAL world equipment. Your welcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post

It's funny, I quoted one sentence of yours which I thought summarized your thoughts on power cables in HT. But you weren't even able to accept what you wrote, you had to pontificate and ultimately obfuscate yet again.
That's because you used it as a bludgeon, applied without any understanding or intelligence. Read up, listen up.

Power cords can indeed make a difference. The difference will be random because there is no engineering involved in the selection of the cord.

And they can make a difference because the equipment in no way shape or form, meets any kind of EMC criteria.

All you guys seem to think that I enjoy the fact that the industry is starting to apply what I put up freely on the internet a decade ago...and that it's taken a decade for them to catch up.

Far far removed from the truth. I'm not a decade ahead of the industry with respect to understanding. I'm only an hour or two, maybe three..

It only takes an hour or two to understand the concepts for a good engineer.

It takes forever if you cannot learn.

I'm sure you guys enjoy the cheap seats..as opposed to the seats where people learn.

jn
post #265 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

It's not the power cords, silly..so might as well stop the floob.

No sh*t!! Ladies and gentlemen, we have a breakthrough!
post #266 of 419
I think it is a mistake to upgrade the power cord on the gear without also upgrading the wires connecting the house to the power transformer on the pole.

I recommend the Audioessence #4032 000-gauge power wires with ermine insulation at only $6000 per foot.
post #267 of 419
Ask Jeremy Kipnis what he used in his home theaters. This one is $6,000,000 http://www.geekologie.com/2008/02/6-million-home-theater-makes-m.php.
post #268 of 419
No one expects........... "The Spanish Inquistition !!!!"
post #269 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I think it is a mistake to upgrade the power cord on the gear without also upgrading the wires connecting the house to the power transformer on the pole.

Silly argument. I believe the contention of the people who use upgraded power products (cords, conditioners, etc.) is to isolate the gear from all of the crap on the "wires connecting the house to the power transformer on the pole".
post #270 of 419
JN it amazes me that a man with your technical background (which you delight in the extreme in demonstrating to us mere mortals) is wholly unable to grasp the concept the most of us who live in the real world and deal with practical events and system designs and BUDGETS have been doing so quite successfully.

I have yet to see you publish a peer reviewed example of taking a building with any type of pro grade AV equipment and run all the usual performance tests prior to being granted unlimited license to gut the building's electrical and mechanical systems and redesign and install them to YOUR specs and then re run the performance tests for a before/after item by item comparison.

Question: If the performance of the various systems meets the spec of the manufacturer, the desire and expectations of the client and does so reliably for the lifetime of the system components, why are you so anal about saying (figuratively) "yea but, yea, but , there are ground currents that are out of control and we must tame them!"?

Seriously JN, no one really cares about fields that the systems and the people involved suffer NO ILL EFFECT from. We all admit they DO exist, BUT if they cause no harm in a given system, give it a rest.

Have you had ANYONE who installs this equipment professionally come to you and say "JN. until we rebuilt the entire building grounding structure and replaced all the conduit runs etc we just couldn't solve our AV problems but now after spending 50 milion dollars, our 100 thousand dollar system works.... just the same as it did before"?

BTW JN, AV contractors have known and exercised numerous construction techniques for decades to eliminate hum, ground loops etc from the cable lays to mechanical isolation etc. That is why we have all made a nice comfortable living.

You really should accept that PRACTICALITY is a major influence in the purchasing and installation of AV equipment for most companies and individuals.
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