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Buying vs. building - Page 6

post #151 of 213
Not the stuff developed and published by Sony. Those titles hold more value in incentives for purchasing the console than they do in incremental sales.
post #152 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Not the stuff developed and published by Sony. Those titles hold more value in incentives for purchasing the console than they do in incremental sales.
That sucks. It is the only console I am looking at buying because my sister in law and a couple friends plan on getting it. I guess I will have to decide which one I want to start with.
post #153 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marafice Eye View Post

The fact that you and so many other people are this paranoid over something that can easily be subverted is startling, really. Well I guess it's not. But yes, I do believe them when they say it can be paused/turned off (http://kotaku.com/xbox-ones-kinect-can-turn-off-microsoft-says-noting-510100564), because if it actually couldn't they'd be in a whole hell of a lot more hot water than they are now. And my point still stands, if you really think it can't be turned off... tape over the lens, simple fix that won't cost you anything as you probably have a roll of tape in your garage.

Price - $499. Yup, typical price for a console. Let's not forget the PS3 was $600 when it launched...
DRM - Yep, pretty standard these days, why this is such a shock to everyone I don't know. Devs and publishers have been fighting used games for YEARS as it damn near equates to piracy. What's that? you're giving your game to a friend that gets to play it without paying for it? You traded it in for store credit and that store makes nothing but profit off of it with the devs and publishers getting NONE of that money? And people say piracy is rampant on PC... Explain to me how used games AREN'T a form of piracy technically. I actually think what MS is doing is GOOD for the industry as it will alow the publishers/devs to decide if they want to get paid or not, rather than just let it happen.
Extra Fee - Yep, been that way for years now, and the PS4 is the same now, have to pay for multiplayer, same cost too, and more if you don't know where to look for deals on XBL cards.
Does it Watch you - Only if you let it, not 'ALWAYS'
Requires internet - What doesn't these days? Everyone whining about this is doing it, shocker, ON THE INTERNET! Meaning they've got a connection to the net at least once per day. Being blown way out of proportion here.
Region Locked - Oh noes, You mean I can't take it on vacation with me? Region locking is NOTHING new, been done for years, The PS4 being region free... half the people cheering for that don't have a clue what that actually means. And it makes sense for the PS4, people clamor for JRPGs to be translated all the time, now devs don't have to translate, people can just import. But what percentage of people will actually take advantage of it being region free? My guess, less than 5%
Features that probably won't work - about the same as ANY electronic device that comes out. Devices launch all the time with nn-working, or bugged features, they get ironed out. Thinking the PS4 will be any different is naive.
Stops Working - Warranty, same as any other device, out of warranty, its a brick, PS4 won't be any different.

Useless photo trying to be edgy and cool with bandwagon hate, is useless...

I'll be sticking to PC, and I'll be getting an XBO for the exclusives I like. Sony has yet to show anything that piques my interest enough to want the PS4, and it was the same with the PS3.

That image was meant as a joke, you take yourself too seriously.

Yes you are right these devices are not banned yet but they are being investigated and in the process of being banned now in 3 countries.
Simple fact that they are being investigated should be a concern.

I don't mind DRM, I'm a Huge steam user. However the trade up for me is most new games I get at less than $40, that is the trade up.
And Steam sales are awesome.
But when you charge $60 for a game that has no resale value that becomes less appealing to an end user that now can not borrow a game from a friend.

Naive... I think you're the naive one here, believing all the BS you're sold by these companies. That's like the stupid and naive notion of a government spying on you, and saying if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about.
You say you're not a MS fanboy but based on your attitude towards the gaming industry and that they can do no evil, I would say otherwise. Not an MS fanboy
Also this system is a door way for the invasion of your privacy, plain and simple.
Doesn't mean it will happen, doesn't mean that MS will do it. But it has the potential to do so, and there are a lot smarter people then MS engineers out there, that mess with this stuff for fun.
Both PSN and XBL have been hacked in the past, it could happen again on a larger scale. Except this time they'll be pictures of you masturbating to the playboy channel because you decided to run your cable box via your XB1, LOL.

Really trading games is a form of Piracy, a lawyer woudl say otherwise.
An item that you pay for is yours you can do with it as you please, except for reverse engineering it, and/or selling it for profit, a.k.a. copying/replicating. You need to work on your definition of piracy. That's like saying I bought this TV, however I can't sell it when I'm done with because... it's piracy.
Also if you watched the MS key note from E3, MS words not mine "The kinect is always on listening and waiting for your commands!". Also the stories of all games requiring the kinect say otherwise.
Them saying it doesn't have to be, is them back pedalling to the overwhelmingly negative response. Damage Control.
A firmware update can change all that, and I'm sure as a clean up effort from E3 MS is considering it.
Personally I don't really care, but your logic is flawed.

Anyways it is useless arguing about this, we are both speaking in hypothetical terms, because until the product arrives and the final software is in our hands it is all hearsay.
And also the communication breakdown at these large companies is huge, someone might make an executive decision and the product might be changed before the final release.

Anyways...
I'm a huge advocate of build your own rigs because when you do you generally get better quality parts and better warranty on most quality computer parts than you would on places such as Shopping with dell or the likes.
post #154 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post

That image was meant as a joke, you take yourself too seriously.

Yes you are right these devices are not banned yet but they are being investigated and in the process of being banned now in 3 countries.
Simple fact that they are being investigated should be a concern.

I don't mind DRM, I'm a Huge steam user. However the trade up for me is most new games I get at less than $40, that is the trade up.
And Steam sales are awesome.
But when you charge $60 for a game that has no resale value that becomes less appealing to an end user that now can not borrow a game from a friend.

Naive... I think you're the naive one here, believing all the BS you're sold by these companies. That's like the stupid and naive notion of a government spying on you, and saying if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about.
You say you're not a MS fanboy but based on your attitude towards the gaming industry and that they can do no evil, I would say otherwise. Not an MS fanboy
Also this system is a door way for the invasion of your privacy, plain and simple.
Doesn't mean it will happen, doesn't mean that MS will do it. But it has the potential to do so, and there are a lot smarter people then MS engineers out there, that mess with this stuff for fun.
Both PSN and XBL have been hacked in the past, it could happen again on a larger scale. Except this time they'll be pictures of you masturbating to the playboy channel because you decided to run your cable box via your XB1, LOL.

Really trading games is a form of Piracy, a lawyer woudl say otherwise.
An item that you pay for is yours you can do with it as you please, except for reverse engineering it, and/or selling it for profit, a.k.a. copying/replicating. You need to work on your definition of piracy. That's like saying I bought this TV, however I can't sell it when I'm done with because... it's piracy.
Also if you watched the MS key note from E3, MS words not mine "The kinect is always on listening and waiting for your commands!". Also the stories of all games requiring the kinect say otherwise.
Them saying it doesn't have to be, is them back pedalling to the overwhelmingly negative response. Damage Control.
A firmware update can change all that, and I'm sure as a clean up effort from E3 MS is considering it.
Personally I don't really care, but your logic is flawed.

Anyways it is useless arguing about this, we are both speaking in hypothetical terms, because until the product arrives and the final software is in our hands it is all hearsay.
And also the communication breakdown at these large companies is huge, someone might make an executive decision and the product might be changed before the final release.

Anyways...
I'm a huge advocate of build your own rigs because when you do you generally get better quality parts and better warranty on most quality computer parts than you would on places such as Shopping with dell or the likes.

Except for the small point in the EULA of any piece of software you purchase, physical or not, that all you've bought it a license to USE the software. You don't actually own it. So in the case of used games it IS a form of piracy as the license is issued to one particular user, the one who bought it in the first place. Just because the companies haven't acted on it, doesn't mean it's not actually there. There's no EULA for hardware, but there IS for software, your TV argument is invalid.

Regardless of whether it's backpedalling or not, the fact of the matter is, they HAVE changed it and it CAN be turned off, and yet all anyone is focusing on is what was said before. Companies change stuff all the time, it's the nature of technology and feedback.

Call me a fanboy all you want, but I'm really not. I debate mindless fear-mongering and bandwagon hate all the time. I'm a PC gamer first and foremost, with nearly 500 games on Steam, and dozens more elsewhere (retail, origin, etc etc.) But I still think what MS is doing with the DRM and used game policy (allowing the devs and publishers to decide) is nothing but good for the industry in general. Either way it doesn't affect me, I don't buy used games or sell mine anyway. I buy them for me to play and that's it.

As for the Kinect, as I said, if it REALLY bothers someone that much, tape the lens, dead serious about that. It's REALLY not that big of a deal. I'm not one of the people that says if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't care, I'm simply saying I don't care because it already happens on a much larger scale, and these are the same people that freely give out personal details on Facebook on a daily basis. Besides, if someone gets caught masturbating to the playboy channel while watching it through their Xbox, they deserve the shame... that's what computers are for man, have you no shame! lol. Kidding aside, the whole 'console war' is always so blown out of proportion anyway because gamers haven't had anything huge to complain about for a while. It's just like the whole "Boycott Modern Warfare 2, or Black ops or w/e it was" group on Steam where over half the member were playing it on day one. People are going to whine and complain, and yet STILL buy it anyway. They just want to be the loudest voice on the interwbez for a couple months.

I'll be snagging an XBO for Halo, Forza, Crackdown(if it comes), and Destiny (if it doesn't end up on PC) everything else will be PC all the way, like I've been doing.
post #155 of 213
Well, I'm not preordering the console, but I already have a controller on preorder.

Hopefully, its Wifi Direct connection should mean that it'll work easily with the PC, but if I hear otherwise before November I'll of course be cancelling.

Using the new controller without a dongle (and of course, a PC that has built-in Wifi) would be excellent. A better d-pad would be even nicer.
post #156 of 213
Do we have Wifi Direct drivers for our PC wireless cards? Do our current chipsets even support it?

Maintaining Internet access and wifi direct would require two active links, and I can't recall any single wifi chipset that lets us do that.
post #157 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

Do we have Wifi Direct drivers for our PC wireless cards? Do our current chipsets even support it?

Maintaining Internet access and wifi direct would require two active links, and I can't recall any single wifi chipset that lets us do that.

Wifi Direct is natively supported in Windows 8.1, so I'd have to imagine that some hardware will support it. biggrin.gif

It's fully possible it won't work, but damn that'd be pretty stupid (read: incredibly likely wink.gif ) for Microsoft to not allow their Wifi Direct based controller to connect to their Wifi Direct supporting operating system. Either way, we should know for sure long before the controller is actually available.
Edited by jhoff80 - 6/13/13 at 6:09pm
post #158 of 213
Question for a friend. He is building a AV rack. Will it matter if he turns the PC sideways? Not lay it down. Just turn it 90 degrees. His current rack deminsions are not deep enough but if he turns the PC it'll be fine. My concern was how often he would need to access the front. I don't have a gaming PC so I can't answer this question for him. Thot I'd throw it up on here and see what you all say.
post #159 of 213
The only time PC orientation really matters is when you want to put a DVD in it, but who does that any more? I guess a PC submerged in a fish tank of mineral oil wouldn't like being tilted on its side either...
post #160 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

The only time PC orientation really matters is when you want to put a DVD in it, but who does that any more? I guess a PC submerged in a fish tank of mineral oil wouldn't like being tilted on its side either...

That's how I was gonna water cool it. biggrin.gif
post #161 of 213
That wasn't a joke. PC hardware works just fine dunked in mineral oil, and it's a much better heat transfer substance than air.
post #162 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

That wasn't a joke. PC hardware works just fine dunked in mineral oil, and it's a much better heat transfer substance than air.

I had no idea was a joke. I know very, very little about the inner workings of a computer. I just want to make sure the dimensions of this rack don't come back to bite me in the rear in the next 6 months to a year. Sounds like putting it in sideways is fine. (comparison: Instead of looking at the hood of a car, your looking at doors) I'll leave it up to him. Just depends how much room he's willing to give up. Thanks for the help
post #163 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by migraine24-7 View Post

I had no idea was a joke. I know very, very little about the inner workings of a computer. I just want to make sure the dimensions of this rack don't come back to bite me in the rear in the next 6 months to a year. Sounds like putting it in sideways is fine. (comparison: Instead of looking at the hood of a car, your looking at doors) I'll leave it up to him. Just depends how much room he's willing to give up. Thanks for the help

I want to see the youtube video of someone dunking their pc up to the power supply and running it , with a temp reading before and after , I will say they are braver than I .
As to your question about orientation in the rack Migraine , as long as he maintains enough space for airflow , doesn't block vents in the case , and doesn't put stress on any of the cables connected at the back of the tower , it'll be fine . If you can put it on a slide out shelf to make access easier.
post #164 of 213
you request, we supply (not youtube, but you know)
http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php

Intel has used this for servers:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/05/intel-servers-mineral-oil-cooling/
post #165 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by acras13 View Post

I want to see the youtube video of someone dunking their pc up to the power supply and running it , with a temp reading before and after , I will say they are braver than I .
As to your question about orientation in the rack Migraine , as long as he maintains enough space for airflow , doesn't block vents in the case , and doesn't put stress on any of the cables connected at the back of the tower , it'll be fine . If you can put it on a slide out shelf to make access easier.

Doesn't have temps, but it is dunked, including the PSU
Quote:
Originally Posted by lespurgeon View Post

you request, we supply (not youtube, but you know)
http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php

Intel has used this for servers:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/05/intel-servers-mineral-oil-cooling/

Here's a vid from Puget Systems from 2007 doing mineral oil cooling
post #166 of 213
An IRL buddy of mine ran his Athlon 64 X2 system in a fishtank like this, back when that was some cutting edge hardware. The hardware lasted just fine until it was time to upgrade for performance reasons. The same guy ran a Peltier system prior to that, with all of the silicon gel mess that that includes.

Air is horrible at heat transfer. The mineral oil absorbs heat much better and acts as a buffer giving you surface area before finally hitting air. The big advantage is that it takes much longer to heat up the entire body of fluid, meaning much more mild hot-spotting. In an air system, you can see rapid spikes from 35-70C caused by load. In oil, those spikes are much slower to hit. You can still get a chip to run at 70C after a stretch of Prime95, but it takes a lot longer to get there. In turn it also takes a lot longer to cool back down to ambient versus air.

Mineral oil is a cool experiment to run, but not really worth the mess overall.
post #167 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

An IRL buddy of mine ran his Athlon 64 X2 system in a fishtank like this, back when that was some cutting edge hardware. The hardware lasted just fine until it was time to upgrade for performance reasons. The same guy ran a Peltier system prior to that, with all of the silicon gel mess that that includes.

Air is horrible at heat transfer. The mineral oil absorbs heat much better and acts as a buffer giving you surface area before finally hitting air. The big advantage is that it takes much longer to heat up the entire body of fluid, meaning much more mild hot-spotting. In an air system, you can see rapid spikes from 35-70C caused by load. In oil, those spikes are much slower to hit. You can still get a chip to run at 70C after a stretch of Prime95, but it takes a lot longer to get there. In turn it also takes a lot longer to cool back down to ambient versus air.

Mineral oil is a cool experiment to run, but not really worth the mess overall.

Which is why I see a lot of people with external rads on a mineral system, to help counter-act the longer cooling time.
post #168 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by lespurgeon View Post

you request, we supply (not youtube, but you know)
http://www.pugetsystems.com/submerged.php

Intel has used this for servers:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/05/intel-servers-mineral-oil-cooling/

Interesting, but not really the impression given by saying computer hardware works just fine submerged in mineral oil. The hard drives aren't submerged, and I don't know how many fans you guys run in your air cooled rigs, but the 11 fans that example was running, plus pumps, certainly gives the impression that mineral oil is no where near as efficient at dissipating heat. It was cool though . can you still make a warranty claim on your components when they are coated in mineral oil? tongue.gif

Edit: I could see this for serves or very specific applications but not for someone trying to drop the temp of their home set up.
Edited by acras13 - 6/16/13 at 11:42pm
post #169 of 213
"not really the impression given by saying computer hardware works just fine submerged in mineral oil. The hard drives aren't submerged"

Platter drives are not sealed and rely on human-breathable air to maintain drive head distance from the platter. Filling them with oil breaks that bit of science/magic. If one were to build a mineral oil machine today, they would obviously use SSDs, which work fine in oil.

At no point did I ever say "dump a stock Dell in oil and call it good". The only quote here that said anything remotely close is "I want to see the youtube video of someone dunking their pc up to the power supply and running it". Oh wait, that was you, wasn't it?


"I don't know how many fans you guys run in your air cooled rigs, but the 11 fans that example was running"

The only fans needed are the probably the CPU and GPU fans, simply to shuffle fresh, cooler fluid in. The PSU fan might be needed if the GPU in question is a 200W+ model. The other fans on display are overkill for stable operation of a moderate system. Saying that mineral oil isn't as good as air because 11 fans were used in this specific example is nonsensical at best. That's like saying an Audi R8 is slower than a Prius because it has bigger tires. It ignores all relevant data.


"not for someone trying to drop the temp of their home set up."

Nobody here is talking about dropping the temp of their home setup. Initially we were talking about whether it's okay to tip a fishtank of mineral oil over on it's side. No, it isn't. The oil spills out on to the floor. Then we were talking about whether mineral oil is a better heat transfer material than air. It most certainly is, regardless of how you feel about it.

Keep up with the conversation, will you?
post #170 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

That wasn't a joke. PC hardware works just fine dunked in mineral oil, and it's a much better heat transfer substance than air.

So SOME computer hardware works fine submerged, check. Your statement above doesn't reflect that.


The only fans needed are the probably the CPU and GPU fans, simply to shuffle fresh, cooler fluid in. The PSU fan might be needed if the GPU in question is a 200W+ model. The other fans on display are overkill for stable operation of a moderate system. Saying that mineral oil isn't as good as air because 11 fans were used in this specific example is nonsensical at best. That's like saying an Audi R8 is slower than a Prius because it has bigger tires. It ignores all relevant data

If a " moderate" system only needs the CPU and GPU fans then why put the radiator and equivalent fan from the Audi R8? Because the superior heat transfer, without dissipation only delays the temp increase? Why do they glaze over their temp readings ( at least watching on my tablet it was not very clear what the temps were, I will watch on my air cooled rig later) , and what temp does the same system run traditionally cooled? Having 11 fans and a couple pumps to circulate and cool does give the IMPRESSION that the oil is less effective, I did not say that it WAS less effective. Perhaps you are having trouble keeping up. Since the submerged fans are designed to work in air, what will their service life be in a denser medium or do you feel that there would be no difference, like the propellers on a P51 and the Missouri are of the same design?
Practical in any sense of the word in a " buy or build" thread, no? Could someone build an air cooled system that would perform as well as that by hacking an air conditioner and 400 cfm duct fan or frost free freezer? I'd be willing to bet yes, but I do not have the equipment or money to buy all of the gear to test my theory.
As I said it was cool to see, thank you for saving me the time to Google it Les, and since the question that sparked this has been answered (placing PC in AV rack) I will refrain from pulling things off topic any further. I'm looking into getting a gaming PC soon and have found some great info in here to help decide if I want to build or buy, so thanks everyone.
Edited by acras13 - 6/26/13 at 11:58pm
post #171 of 213
I've been waffling on buying a laptop and building a new pc. I really like the fact that the new Asus laptops have built in headphone amps. That and their new ROG MB's also have it. So those are my 2 starting points.

Any other laptops or MBs have headphone amps built in?
post #172 of 213
OK, to comment on the last 2 comments:
laptop or new PC - really different form factor/use models. You need to decide what your need is.

on the oil-cooled, I've considered building one in a chest freezer - you should be able to keep the temperature 10 degrees below freezing, no need to worry about condensation.
post #173 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by americangunner View Post

When did my thread about buying or buidling a console turn into a console flame war? You guys can find plenty of other places to argue this stupid crap, like in the console forums.

Now, back on topic. I am pretty set on what I think I will do, and I do want to try to stick with a SFF pc so I can put it under my tv and plug it in to use on a lot of games that I can use a controller on. It seems like most my console friends are in no hurry to upgrade to anything new, and my brother and my friend from work are constantly on their pc's, so at least I will have someone to play stuff with if I go this way.

Yeah...what happened to your thread. I started reading it a while ago...but stopped at the beginning of the 2nd page. Decided to read the rest of it tonight and felt like I somehow got transported to entirely different threads several times.

Did you ever make a decision on what you are going to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by uuddlrlrbass View Post

get a cheap case, expensive quality power supply, 650 ti boost, i5

by this time next year there will be new graphics cards and new processors . don't spend a ton of money on a tiny increase in performance.

lots of really good videos on YouTube step by step on how to put it all together.

also listen to this week in computer hard with Ryan Shrout .

forget about overclocking and watercooling. a basic gaming pc will blow your mind.

just my 2cents

I almost didn't search that guy you mentioned and his video log show. But I did and apparently he is basically located in my hometown. Maybe I could get them to help me build a pc...lol.

He / (they?) seem to have an informative site....http://www.pcper.com/

Anyone else ever visited that site before?
post #174 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by americangunner View Post

When did my thread about buying or buidling a console turn into a console flame war? You guys can find plenty of other places to argue this stupid crap, like in the console forums.


mphfrom77, to answer your question (and the OP's), it looks like americangunner initiated the derailment of his own thread himself way back on page 4. He was the first to bring up the consoles lol. It seems he was even "flaming" the Xbox 1 about paying for the privilege to play online lol!

Quote:
Originally Posted by americangunner View Post

I knew I should have just jumped on PC gaming a few months ago Now with the way the Xbone is going, it looks like this is something I need to do. At least I can get some steam sales and not pay for the privalege to play online.
post #175 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

Did you ever make a decision on what you are going to do?

I am probably going to hold off until the new consoles come out, and take a look at everything. Eventually I will probably end up getting both a console (or two) and a PC.
post #176 of 213
Yeah, guess now is not the best time to build a gaming pc...value wise. I think I am going to go forward with a pc build because I just want a computer for a bunch of things. Oh well.
post #177 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

Yeah, guess now is not the best time to build a gaming pc...value wise. I think I am going to go forward with a pc build because I just want a computer for a bunch of things. Oh well.
The one thing that I keep going back to though is I can get a pc right now and let it hold me over until the get any bugs worked out of the new systems. Plus if I get a pc and end up liking it enough so that I don't want to get a console, I save myself $500. As it stands right now, there is a very good chance I end up getting a pc in two weeks when I get back from vacation.
post #178 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by americangunner View Post

The one thing that I keep going back to though is I can get a pc right now and let it hold me over until the get any bugs worked out of the new systems. Plus if I get a pc and end up liking it enough so that I don't want to get a console, I save myself $500. As it stands right now, there is a very good chance I end up getting a pc in two weeks when I get back from vacation.

heh, a gaming PC is like a console where the bugs NEVER get fully worked out. My dream would just be a console that I could build myself.
post #179 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

heh, a gaming PC is like a console where the bugs NEVER get fully worked out. My dream would just be a console that I could build myself.

Nah.

There's glitches here and there, sure. But it's much better these days than it used to be. I consider my PC as a game console that I built myself. wink.gif
post #180 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post

Nah.

There's glitches here and there, sure. But it's much better these days than it used to be. I consider my PC as a game console that I built myself. wink.gif

Yeah don't get me wrong...it's much, much better than it used to be. But I still find the occasional game without controller support, and you still need to fiddle with a mouse/KB to change settings or launch games on different services.

When I can boot it up and control everything with a controller and only a controller, the dream will finally be realized.
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