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Need help with a HT setup wife approved a $2000 budget what would you get

post #1 of 72
Thread Starter 
Hey guys Im a complete newbie with this stuff but I want to set up a nice HT setup in the upstairs game room
I have $2000 for the sound (speakers and AVR) not sure if I would do a 5 or 7 ch I think Im going to start with one sub and later maybe do two
Movies and TV 60% Games 30% Music 10%

not against building my own sub if I had good plans and suggestions I do have some experience with car audio and sub enclosures
also have 2 12" Rockford Fosgate P3 that I wouldn't mind taking out of my car to use



the room is 17x17 any suggestions would be great

I do have a friend that works at Best Buy and can get me their stuff at discount if that helps not sure how you guys feel about what they sell

again thanks for your help
post #2 of 72
5 channel seems to be the way to go as most movies and tv are mixed in 5.1 format. As for the avr I like Denon but Onkyo also has quite a few features for the money.
post #3 of 72
Thread Starter 
Thanks Swim
also would maybe consider starting off with a really good LRC set up and upgrade as I can save up
post #4 of 72
That's how I started mine minus the Center. My dad has some old infinity rs9 LR that he never uses so I pretty much took them, got a new receiver and use the LR for music and 5.1 for movies. I would like to upgrade the center which is not matched to the infinitys but the LCR is probably the best way to start just make sure to match or be pretty close to matching. And if you really want surrounds you can get some dayton bookshelf speakers from parts-express or amazon for $40 a pair.
post #5 of 72
I suggest the Harman-Kardon 1650 receiver.

I think it has better amplifier and power supply circuits than almost anything else for a comparable price, and sounds better as a result.

Most lower-priced AVRs really do not do a very good job of driving 5 speakers.

For speakers, I would suggest four of the Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 speakers and the matching center speaker. Those will run you right around $1000 total from Music Direct.

The Klipsch RW-12D subwoofer is one of the best available for under $400.
post #6 of 72
It sounds like you have experience constructing subs, and if you can build the sub, your dollar will go a lot further by going the DIY route. Take a look around the DIY forum for ideas on that. You could also build some amazing speakers for cheap too, if you have the tools and basic cabinet building experience. With some elbow grease, you could make that $2k stretch really far.
post #7 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djemil View Post

Hey guys Im a complete newbie with this stuff but I want to set up a nice HT setup in the upstairs game room
I have $2000 for the sound (speakers and AVR) not sure if I would do a 5 or 7 ch I think Im going to start with one sub and later maybe do two
Movies and TV 60% Games 30% Music 10%

not against building my own sub if I had good plans and suggestions I do have some experience with car audio and sub enclosures
also have 2 12" Rockford Fosgate P3 that I wouldn't mind taking out of my car to use



the room is 17x17 any suggestions would be great

I do have a friend that works at Best Buy and can get me their stuff at discount if that helps not sure how you guys feel about what they sell

again thanks for your help

Some P363/P253/ for fronts, a PC351 center and P153/163's for rear's.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=primus+speaker&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aprimus+speaker

Hsu sub.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html

Denon AVR-1913http://www.crutchfield.com/p_033AV1913/Denon-AVR-1913.html?showAll=N&search=1913&skipvs=T

This is just one system.

I think some good bookshelf speakers might work well in your space. I use P162's (same as the P163 except for the color scheme) in a 11X17 room and they sound great.

A lot of people on this forum like Ascend Acoustics,

Plenty of choices out there.
post #8 of 72
Thread Starter 
everyone on this forum keeps suggesting the CMT-340 SE MINI-TOWER just want to make sure its enough for the room and also I like my bass so want to make sure that these will fill the room and have enough of the mid range bass and Ill get a sub or two for the low stuff

If you had $2k to spend on the front 3 and a receiver what would you buy

thanks for all the ideas
post #9 of 72
What is the listening distance going to be? How loud do you like to listen to movies? Can't make a recommendation without knowing a little info. Otherwise, the recommendation may not fit the need at all.
Reply
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post #10 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

What is the listening distance going to be? How loud do you like to listen to movies? Can't make a recommendation without knowing a little info. Otherwise, the recommendation may not fit the need at all.

I think the movies would be medium to high for hosting movie nights and as far as sitting goes not sure yet we are building the house still so no furniture yet just trying to plan ahead but probably 8 feet back
post #11 of 72
The CMT-340 SE should do fine as long as you match it with a sub or two.
post #12 of 72
Thread Starter 
thanks guys any other suggestions I keep looking at floor standing left rights just like the look but is it worth the extra $$ on them and do they sound better and more complete
I think Im going to try and make the two RF 12s work for subs and get some help in the DIY section with that so still need the AVR and the front three with the 2k budget I'll squeeze the parts for the subs in later lol hopefully the wife wont mind too much
post #13 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djemil View Post

thanks guys any other suggestions I keep looking at floor standing left rights just like the look but is it worth the extra $$ on them and do they sound better and more complete
I think Im going to try and make the two RF 12s work for subs and get some help in the DIY section with that so still need the AVR and the front three with the 2k budget I'll squeeze the parts for the subs in later lol hopefully the wife wont mind too much

With about same budget, I spent

600 for Pioneer SC -1522K AVR at Costco( this is similar to the Pinoeer SC-65 which sells for over 1000 ).
904 for three CMT-340SE from Ascend Acoustic
280 for Rw-12D at Newegg.

I haven't had time to set them up yet to say how good they are though.
post #14 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by newavsmember View Post

With about same budget, I spent

600 for Pioneer SC -1522K AVR at Costco( this is similar to the Pinoeer SC-65 which sells for over 1000 ).
904 for three CMT-340SE from Ascend Acoustic
280 for Rw-12D at Newegg.

I haven't had time to set them up yet to say how good they are though.

Jeez! What are you waiting for???? biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
post #15 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djemil View Post

thanks guys any other suggestions I keep looking at floor standing left rights just like the look but is it worth the extra $$ on them and do they sound better and more complete
I think Im going to try and make the two RF 12s work for subs and get some help in the DIY section with that so still need the AVR and the front three with the 2k budget I'll squeeze the parts for the subs in later lol hopefully the wife wont mind too much

Definitely check out those Ascend CMT-340 SE's for your modest speaker budget. Get three regular CMT-340's (not the one that's wired as a horizontal center speaker... must call for that special request) and two matching sand-fillable stands for the left/right (on sale with speaker purchase). Add the matching surrounds later... or stretch your budget a little and get a package price if you add a pair of wall mountable HTM-200 SE's for surrounds.

Hunt around for the Pioneer 1522k receiver at your local Costco's (gotta call around for stock) and snag one while you can. They can go like hot cakes.

Start with 5.1 and then go up from there. That particular Pioneer can do up to 9.2 surround (the standard 7.1 discrete channel audio decoding for certain Blu-ray's plus extracted front wides or height information for a bigger sound stage via DTS Neo:X... and two subwoofer outputs) and has a full array of pre-amp outputs, so you can get beefier power amps later (for louder, clearer sound, and far less distortion than the built in amps).

If you end up doing the full 9.2 setup at some point you should get either a pair of HTM-200 SE's for the heights or another pair of CMT-340 SE's for the front stage wide outputs.

Not too big on DIY subs, myself, but HSU, SVS, and Rythmik subs are great bang for the buck.
Edited by Dan Hitchman - 4/20/13 at 12:30pm
post #16 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djemil View Post

Hey guys Im a complete newbie with this stuff but I want to set up a nice HT setup in the upstairs game room
I have $2000 for the sound (speakers and AVR) not sure if I would do a 5 or 7 ch I think Im going to start with one sub and later maybe do two
Movies and TV 60% Games 30% Music 10%

not against building my own sub if I had good plans and suggestions I do have some experience with car audio and sub enclosures
also have 2 12" Rockford Fosgate P3 that I wouldn't mind taking out of my car to use



the room is 17x17 any suggestions would be great

I do have a friend that works at Best Buy and can get me their stuff at discount if that helps not sure how you guys feel about what they sell

again thanks for your help

Until 6PM Eastern time 4/20/13, Newegg has the Yamaha 773 on sale for $430, including wifi adapter.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882115377&nm_mc=EMC-EXPRESS042013&cm_mmc=EMC-EXPRESS042013-_-EMC-042013-Index-_-Yamaha-_-82115377-L01A
post #17 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Hunt around for the Pioneer 1522k receiver at your local Costco's (gotta call around for stock) and snag one while you can. They can go like hot cakes.

That AVR is a very good deal for that price, I wish our Costco's here in Hawaii were getting them but so far, no go.

If you are able to, go and listen to Cambridge Audio's Minx line. It's a interesting and very surprising line and at least worth a listen to if you have the chance. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be going with that line for my new setup, but I'm space restricted unlike you making the sat/sub option more practical for me.

Here's the thread for the Minx
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1339511/cambridge-audio-minx-loudspeaker-discussion-thread

Mitchell
post #18 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Definitely check out those Ascend CMT-340 SE's for your modest speaker budget. Get three regular CMT-340's (not the one that's wired as a horizontal center speaker... must call for that special request) and two matching sand-fillable stands for the left/right (on sale with speaker purchase). Add the matching surrounds later... or stretch your budget a little and get a package price if you add a pair of wall mountable HTM-200 SE's for surrounds.

Hunt around for the Pioneer 1522k receiver at your local Costco's (gotta call around for stock) and snag one while you can. They can go like hot cakes.

Start with 5.1 and then go up from there. That particular Pioneer can do up to 9.2 surround (the standard 7.1 discrete channel audio decoding for certain Blu-ray's plus extracted front wides or height information for a bigger sound stage via DTS Neo:X... and two subwoofer outputs) and has a full array of pre-amp outputs, so you can get beefier power amps later (for louder, clearer sound, and far less distortion than the built in amps).

If you end up doing the full 9.2 setup at some point you should get either a pair of HTM-200 SE's for the heights or another pair of CMT-340 SE's for the front stage wide outputs.

Not too big on DIY subs, myself, but HSU, SVS, and Rythmik subs are great bang for the buck.

Why would you go with a standard speaker instead of the center wired one?
post #19 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post

Why would you go with a standard speaker instead of the center wired one?

If you ever go with a projector and screen (especially an acoustically transparent one), it's always better to have three identical, vertical aligned speakers for the LCR. The center speaker version of the CMT-340 SE has to be taken apart to get to the crossover circuit board to change it back to a regular vertical version. A lot of extra hassle.

Horizontal center speakers are a sonic compromise in sound dispersal pattern and frequency response in order to place them under a regular TV. All professional mixing and commercial theaters use identical vertical speakers for the screen channels.
post #20 of 72
Thread Starter 
what do you guys think of the Polk Audio 75T compared to the CMT-340
newegg has them on sale for $179
http://www.techbargains.com/news_displayItem.cfm/346008
post #21 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djemil View Post

what do you guys think of the Polk Audio 75T compared to the CMT-340
newegg has them on sale for $179
http://www.techbargains.com/news_displayItem.cfm/346008

Polk is definitely not recommended by me. They have slid down quite a ways from what they once were (and I used to own Polks). I hate seeing people waste their money when there are better sounding options available.
post #22 of 72
The Polk Rti speakers aren't too bad, and the Lsi series measure pretty well. The monitors and Tsi are awful though, I agree with you there.
post #23 of 72
Thread Starter 
OK so no to the Polks
post #24 of 72
$2K budget for 5 speakers, 1 sub, 1 AVR.

For subwoofer, I recommend the $650 Outlaw LFM-1EX.
At 2 meters outdoors ground plane, it can cleanly output 110.7/112.3/113.7/113dB @ 32/40/50/63Hz w/ < 10% THD. Output will be significantly more inside your room.

As a comparison, the $9,000 Paradigm Sig Sub2 can output 109.9/113.2/116.9/120.2dB under the same condition.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfmEX.html

For AVR, call Sarah Appliance (1-888-775-2268) and ask for the Denon 3310CI ($1500 MSRP) for $500 delivered (ask to waive the $22 shipping).

It is an OPEN-BOX item, not a refurbished item. It is listed as LIKE NEW w/ FULL WARRANTY.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002AKKFQ2/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1366555538&sr=1-1&keywords=Denon+3310&condition=used

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002AKKFQ2/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1366555538&sr=1-1&keywords=Denon+3310&condition=used

I bet that Denon will be sold quickly now that I have posted it. biggrin.gif

For speakers, you deserve a high-end brand name like KEF (they make some $200,000 speakers). Okay, you can't afford $200,000, but try some Q100 (x 4) + Q200 center = $1130. biggrin.gif

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFQ100CHY/KEF-Q100-Q-Series-5-1/4-inch-Cherry-Bookshelf-Speakers-pair/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFQ200CCHY/KEF-Q200C-Q-Series-Cherry-5-1/4-inch-Center-Channel-Speaker/1.html

Okay, so it's slightly over-budget, but you can convince your wife that it's all worth it "for a few dollars more". smile.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 4/21/13 at 8:41am
post #25 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I suggest the Harman-Kardon 1650 receiver. I think it has better amplifier and power supply circuits than almost anything else for a comparable price, and sounds better as a result.


Here are some measurements from Home Theater. Go through this list and share your knowledge about manufacturer's power supply design.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/harman-kardon-avr-1700-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 32.8 watts
1% distortion at 39.5 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-2313ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 77.7 watts
1% distortion at 90.8 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 74.3 watts
1% distortion at 84.3 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-sc-61-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 109.0 watts
1% distortion at 127.7 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 99.4 watts
1% distortion at 110.3 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/yamaha-rx-a1020-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 63.9 watts
1% distortion at 73.2 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 57.0 watts
1% distortion at 65.1 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr3010-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 122.1 watts
1% distortion at 142.2 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 114.1 watts
1% distortion at 127.2 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/sony-str-dn1030-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 81.5 watts
1% distortion at 90.4 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 65.4 watts
1% distortion at 78.2 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1913-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 70.5 watts
1% distortion at 81.7 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 52.7 watts
1% distortion at 68.7 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-sc-68-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 92.3 watts
1% distortion at 138.8 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 90.0 watts
1% distortion at 113.8 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/marantz-sr7007-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 89.5 watts
1% distortion at 111.4 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 70.5 watts
1% distortion at 83.8 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr414-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 53.1 watts
1% distortion at 66.7 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/cambridge-audio-azur-551r-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 68.2 watts
1% distortion at 81.2 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 61.7 watts
1% distortion at 69.4 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-vsx-42-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 66.8 watts
1% distortion at 79.9 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 58.9 watts
1% distortion at 67.5 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/rotel-rsx-1562-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 85.5 watts
1% distortion at 124.0 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 84.8 watts
1% distortion at 123.4 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/marantz-sr6006-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 75.9 watts
1% distortion at 92.0 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 71.3 watts
1% distortion at 83.4 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-3312ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 82.9 watts
1% distortion at 103.0 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 79.5 watts
1% distortion at 96.8 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/yamaha-aventage-rx-a1010-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 53.5 watts
1% distortion at 65.3 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 52.5 watts
1% distortion at 63.0 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/arcam-avr360-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 82.6 watts
1% distortion at 90.2 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 61.3 watts
1% distortion at 71.0 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr1009-92-channel-network-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 116.5 watts
1% distortion at 131.2 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 86.1 watts
1% distortion at 100.6 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/harman-kardon-avr-3650-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 70.4 watts
1% distortion at 85.8 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 43.6 watts
1% distortion at 50.8 watts

http://www.hometheater.com/content/anthem-mrx-300-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 71.4 watts
1% distortion at 83.4 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 56.3 watts
1% distortion at 70.9 watts
Edited by Badouri - 4/28/13 at 3:21pm
post #26 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badouri View Post

http://www.hometheater.com/content/harman-kardon-avr-1700-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 32.8 watts
1% distortion at 39.5 watts

I was looking at that too.

Apparently Commsysman doesn't believe in measurements. Even if it is 30 WPC, it sounds like 300 WPC to his golden ears. biggrin.gif

Amazon was selling the Denon 3312 for $550 new & $492 open-box a few months ago:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-3312ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 122.9 watts
1% distortion at 143.3 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 82.9 watts
1% distortion at 103.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 79.5 watts
1% distortion at 96.8 watts

The Denon 3310/3311/3312/3313/990/991 measurements should all be close to each other.
post #27 of 72
If you are willing to DIY you could build
5 of these for ~$1K
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion8-kit.html

pick a 500$ receiver and a sub within your budget.

that would IMO be a hard deal to beat
post #28 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

If you ever go with a projector and screen (especially an acoustically transparent one), it's always better to have three identical, vertical aligned speakers for the LCR. The center speaker version of the CMT-340 SE has to be taken apart to get to the crossover circuit board to change it back to a regular vertical version. A lot of extra hassle.

Horizontal center speakers are a sonic compromise in sound dispersal pattern and frequency response in order to place them under a regular TV. All professional mixing and commercial theaters use identical vertical speakers for the screen channels.

What if you are putting it under or near your TV. would you go with the center then?
post #29 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Definitely check out those Ascend CMT-340 SE's for your modest speaker budget. Get three regular CMT-340's (not the one that's wired as a horizontal center speaker... must call for that special request) and two matching sand-fillable stands for the left/right (on sale with speaker purchase). Add the matching surrounds later... or stretch your budget a little and get a package price if you add a pair of wall mountable HTM-200 SE's for surrounds.

Hunt around for the Pioneer 1522k receiver at your local Costco's (gotta call around for stock) and snag one while you can. They can go like hot cakes.

Start with 5.1 and then go up from there. That particular Pioneer can do up to 9.2 surround (the standard 7.1 discrete channel audio decoding for certain Blu-ray's plus extracted front wides or height information for a bigger sound stage via DTS Neo:X... and two subwoofer outputs) and has a full array of pre-amp outputs, so you can get beefier power amps later (for louder, clearer sound, and far less distortion than the built in amps).

If you end up doing the full 9.2 setup at some point you should get either a pair of HTM-200 SE's for the heights or another pair of CMT-340 SE's for the front stage wide outputs.

Not too big on DIY subs, myself, but HSU, SVS, and Rythmik subs are great bang for the buck.

I found a local Costco that has a few in stock. Overall what do you guys think is better the Pioneer 1522k or Denon AVR3310CI . I am am in a similar boat as the original post budget wise. I auditioned the kef q500 today at Pauls TV and thought they sounded pretty good. I was really hoping to hear the q300. They dont stock any other of the kef q series aside from the Q200c which sounded nice.

Do those CMT-340 SE sounch much better then say two q500 with a q200c center as they are about the same price wise from accessories4less?
post #30 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post

What if you are putting it under or near your TV. would you go with the center then?

If you have no intention of ever doing a projection system and forever placing your center speaker horizontally, then just get the center version of the CMT-340.
Edited by Dan Hitchman - 4/21/13 at 4:10pm
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