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SEOS 12/ DNA360 / TD12M Mains and Inwall Center Build - Page 3

post #61 of 150
Thread Starter 
I think I'm just going to get in there from the side with a small saw. I need to remove about a 1/4".
post #62 of 150
Thread Starter 
Problem solved.


post #63 of 150
You are a professional now. biggrin.gif
post #64 of 150
Interesting thread, following along and I really dig what you're doing. So continued good luck.

Nice tablecloth tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Do you think that this in-wall version of the Seos speakers will sound as good as the regular standard version? The reason that I ask is because I
have never heard an in-wall speaker that sounded as good as a comparable standard speaker in a conventional box. I have always wondered why
there seems to be so much of a disparity between conventional speakers and in-wall speakers when it comes to sound quality. The last in-walls that
I heard were the Klipsch Ultra-2 THX in-walls.


Very astute observation, and a significant issue.


A well executed flush mounted speaker addresses several of the many acoustic distortion issues associated with loudspeaker reproduction. Proper flush mounting lessens the negative effects of diffraction, it entirely eliminates the reflection and negative interaction (SBIR) of the wall behind the speakers. Also, we're all familiar with the half space mounting performance gains, with up to several dB of boost to the lower freqs.


What's important is one achieves the positive attributes, without incurring the potential negative issues that all too often accompany flush mounted systems in homes. Any discontinuity of the baffle wall can create measurable artifacts in the acoustic facsimile that is the soundstage, or reproduced image of the recorded event. Also, any diffraction issues that do arise from the small baffle wall deviations anywhere around the drivers not only affect imaging, but they can degrade the transient response too.


Waveguides for pattern control, flush mounted drivers, precise transitions for smooth surfaces .... all create fewer diffraction sources, and are all positive steps toward minimizing the wavelaunch adulteration that impacts the acoustic reconstruction of the image occurring prior to the energy reaching the LP.


Psycho-acoustically, it's amazing how well we hear past many of these acoustic distortions. However, clearly there a gains to be had in lessening each of the above issues, and striving for the most ideal environment for playback of the recorded event. Anything less than a loudspeaker radiating into free space can easily encounter the minefield of acoustic distortions that plague the loudspeaker/room interface. Thus, when plunging into the flush mounted realm, one really benefits from being mindful of the inherent issues.



In brief review, the benefits of flush mounting are;
1.) diffraction issues are lessened
2.) any potential cancellation between the speakers and the front wall is minimized
3.) the lower freqs are more efficiently matched to the space
So examining those three, clearly one can see the key would be the proper execution of the flush mounting, without compromising edge diffraction. The other benefits are essentially a can't miss proposition, but key benefits nonetheless. Actually, they're enormous benefits, as boundary interference easily creates significant destructive dips in response, and merely achieving a 3dB rise in system sensitivity is equally as exciting.


Add it all together and perhaps most importantly include the manner in which waveguide/pattern control launches the wave toward the LP ... thus eliminating both edge diffraction artifacts (FR, and transient response), and "SBIR" boundary interference issues (again both freq and time domain). Unfortunately the effects only populate the range within the passband, but we can't have everything. smile.gif Clearly, one can see the importance of the lowest possible cut out freq for horn loading.


Here is a tremendous pdf of a SynAudCon paper by Pat Brown. The entire paper is superb in it's simplicity. Empirical data, with clear explanations for implementing such data. The data toward the bottom is fascinating. We all are aware of edge diffraction, but Pat illustrates it's significant impact from around 300-3k,... a huge component of the measurement.

For those not familiar, SynAudCon is the finest organization of it's kind. It was founded by the incomparable Don Davis, with his wife Carolyn. It's since been turned over to Pat Brown, the author of the pdf paper. Their work in sound reproduction should be studied by all.

http://www.synaudcon.com/site/
Within the site, is a collective of ref articles and education focused on acoustics, electronics, sound, and sound systems of all sizes.




(Fwiw; My wife and I bought out first home with an eye on the ideal shoebox proportioned listening room. A very modest home at $29k eek.gif During our first year there, I installed inwalls, we enjoyed both the visual aesthetic, and the half space efficiency that came with the mounting. Dual 6.5", 2.5 way, w/soft dome) .. yeah, $29K
post #65 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Problem solved.



same thing happened to me when i built the tempests, fixed it in exactly the same way you did biggrin.gif
post #66 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Interesting thread, following along and I really dig what you're doing. So continued good luck.

Nice tablecloth tongue.gif
Very astute observation, and a significant issue.


A well executed flush mounted speaker addresses several of the many acoustic distortion issues associated with loudspeaker reproduction. Proper flush mounting lessens the negative effects of diffraction, it entirely eliminates the reflection and negative interaction (SBIR) of the wall behind the speakers. Also, we're all familiar with the half space mounting performance gains, with up to several dB of boost to the lower freqs.


What's important is one achieves the positive attributes, without incurring the potential negative issues that all too often accompany flush mounted systems in homes. Any discontinuity of the baffle wall can create measurable artifacts in the acoustic facsimile that is the soundstage, or reproduced image of the recorded event. Also, any diffraction issues that do arise from the small baffle wall deviations anywhere around the drivers not only affect imaging, but they can degrade the transient response too.


Waveguides for pattern control, flush mounted drivers, precise transitions for smooth surfaces .... all create fewer diffraction sources, and are all positive steps toward minimizing the wavelaunch adulteration that impacts the acoustic reconstruction of the image occurring prior to the energy reaching the LP.


Psycho-acoustically, it's amazing how well we hear past many of these acoustic distortions. However, clearly there a gains to be had in lessening each of the above issues, and striving for the most ideal environment for playback of the recorded event. Anything less than a loudspeaker radiating into free space can easily encounter the minefield of acoustic distortions that plague the loudspeaker/room interface. Thus, when plunging into the flush mounted realm, one really benefits from being mindful of the inherent issues.



In brief review, the benefits of flush mounting are;
1.) diffraction issues are lessened
2.) any potential cancellation between the speakers and the front wall is minimized
3.) the lower freqs are more efficiently matched to the space
So examining those three, clearly one can see the key would be the proper execution of the flush mounting, without compromising edge diffraction. The other benefits are essentially a can't miss proposition, but key benefits nonetheless. Actually, they're enormous benefits, as boundary interference easily creates significant destructive dips in response, and merely achieving a 3dB rise in system sensitivity is equally as exciting.


Add it all together and perhaps most importantly include the manner in which waveguide/pattern control launches the wave toward the LP ... thus eliminating both edge diffraction artifacts (FR, and transient response), and "SBIR" boundary interference issues (again both freq and time domain). Unfortunately the effects only populate the range within the passband, but we can't have everything. smile.gif Clearly, one can see the importance of the lowest possible cut out freq for horn loading.


Here is a tremendous pdf of a SynAudCon paper by Pat Brown. The entire paper is superb in it's simplicity. Empirical data, with clear explanations for implementing such data. The data toward the bottom is fascinating. We all are aware of edge diffraction, but Pat illustrates it's significant impact from around 300-3k,... a huge component of the measurement.

For those not familiar, SynAudCon is the finest organization of it's kind. It was founded by the incomparable Don Davis, with his wife Carolyn. It's since been turned over to Pat Brown, the author of the pdf paper. Their work in sound reproduction should be studied by all.

http://www.synaudcon.com/site/
Within the site, is a collective of ref articles and education focused on acoustics, electronics, sound, and sound systems of all sizes.




(Fwiw; My wife and I bought out first home with an eye on the ideal shoebox proportioned listening room. A very modest home at $29k eek.gif During our first year there, I installed inwalls, we enjoyed both the visual aesthetic, and the half space efficiency that came with the mounting. Dual 6.5", 2.5 way, w/soft dome) .. yeah, $29K

Since this center speaker will be sticking out from the wall 4", the plan is to fill that space with sound absorption material within the entire area behind the screen.
post #67 of 150
Thread Starter 
#2 same fix



Here is the saw I used. Called a compass saw

post #68 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Since this center speaker will be sticking out from the wall 4", the plan is to fill that space with sound absorption material within the entire area behind the screen.

Do you mean face the entire surface, the entire 4" difference ... with say 703?

Like Japan Dave's superlative build?

post #69 of 150
Thread Starter 
That's the plan. Just the area directly behind the screen though for now.
post #70 of 150
Have you considered that you're not going to able to point the waveguides inward 45 degrees so that they'll cross just in front of the LP? According to the theory, or best practices, you won't be using the waveguides to full advantage unless they're crossfired.
post #71 of 150
Thread Starter 
The left and right are not recessed they are free standing, so they will most definitely be towed in
post #72 of 150
Ah I see.redface.gif Just the center speaker is recessed. Interesting build.
I've thought about building my SEOS 18's into the corners although it wouldn't be flush but just a floor to ceiling cabinet. My ceiling is only 7'-10". Perhaps use the walls as extensions of the waveguides to good effect.
post #73 of 150
Thread Starter 
I went ahead and hit these with some flat black spray paint behind the ports and in the driver recesses before I finish them

post #74 of 150
Thanks for the info FOH, but that still doesn't answer any of the concerns, or reservations that I have with regards to in-wall mounted speakers. I have recently heard the Klipsch THX Ultra-2 in-wall setup powered by a really nice
Lexicon MC-12hd, and the sound was...to put it nicely....no where near as good as the RF series that I demoed that same day, (note that even though the RF82's sounded superior, I still think they were severely lacking).
Is it even possible to get better SQ out of a trio of in-walls compared to the same or similar speakers that would be used in a traditional manor?
post #75 of 150
Thread Starter 
fully assembled and ready for prep. looks like they will need minimal filling if any at all. im going to sand them down first and go from there. these things are super solid. im very impressed with the flat packs. as i mentioned earlier, because everything is cut perfect i could use Titebond instead of PL Premium which is WAY cleaner to work with. it comes right off your skin like regular Elmers and since it does not expand, you can unclamp your pieces after 35 minutes or so and move on. i used less than half of a 16 oz. bottle and could have used less.

post #76 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

You are a professional now. biggrin.gif

yeah, these are totally custom now! cool.gif

i can tell you must have went through a lot of test boxes while getting these flat packs fine tuned. you can tell a lot of thought went into them. youve mentioned putting these together with just painters tape and i almost think that might be a better way to do it. as if the pressure from the clamps actually works against how perfect everything is cut to fit together.

did you get my email reply saying ill use the 6" tempest port tubes with these?
post #77 of 150
Thanks, there was a good amount of design work that went into making them easy to assemble.

You did a great job getting them together. I'm glad they went together okay. You're the first person to try the Tempest box customized for the A&E woofer. To keep the cost down, I decided to leave the inner baffles the same on both. The woofer cut out on the inner baffle is close enough that I didn't see any reason for you to spend extra money to recut 2 panels. Everything else lines up pretty darn good though. I will probably go ahead and rework that brace on the next round of boxes that gets cut.

I'll go ahead and ship the precut ports now that you're sure you want to use those. I forget where they tune the box, but they will allow you to run full range if needed.
post #78 of 150
Those look awesome Brian!! Well done!
post #79 of 150
Thread Starter 
Thanks!!

everything goes together so easy, it's hard to mess these up.

The only part that took any effort was the last side panel. I found it easiest to get the end closest to the baffle in first and then just tap the panel into place. It's a tight fit.
post #80 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post



I'll go ahead and ship the precut ports now that you're sure you want to use those. I forget where they tune the box, but they will allow you to run full range if needed.

Awesome. Hopefully AE can ship my woofers out soon. They are the last components im waiting for. I would love to have these all done by the weekend but I'm not getting my hopes up.
post #81 of 150
Thread Starter 
on a side note, has anyone else noticed that the default avatar on the mobile site is now a SEOS speaker?
post #82 of 150
Thread Starter 
alright. took the orbital sander to them and they turned out great. i sanded the edges down just a bit. no filler needed!!!

i should be able to get the first coat of Duratex on them later tonight cool.gif



post #83 of 150
Looking good. Screw the Duratex, I say you wrap them in that sweet Minnie Mouse tablecloth. That would be sweet. biggrin.gif


I always find it funny that you and I seem to time our builds to coincide with one another. First the sub build, now the mains. smile.gif
post #84 of 150
Thread Starter 
Come on man! A Minnie Mouse wrap would totally show through my panels. You know better than that!!

There are a lot of folks upgrading subs and mains lately. It's infectious.

Beast
Gorilla
Chop
Bhazard
MrSmithers
Sibuna
Just to name a few. We just happen to be the current wave of nutz
post #85 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Come on man! A Minnie Mouse wrap would totally show through my panels. You know better than that!!

There are a lot of folks upgrading subs and mains lately. It's infectious.

Beast
Gorilla
Chop
Bhazard
MrSmithers
Sibuna
Just to name a few. We just happen to be the current wave of nutz

Its the quality of the components, the bang for the buck, and the pride of ownership.

Its the closest you can get to Noesis/Catalyst quality without spending thousands more to achieve the look/sound you want. A Piano Black finish on those speakers cost as much as my whole speaker kit. Instead, I can just throw away a week of my spare time and curse a lot.
post #86 of 150
Thread Starter 
Got an update from AE.

TD12's will definitely not be here this week. Bummer. Guess ill have plenty of time to have these enclosures ready.
post #87 of 150
Definitely worth the wait! I am on the other end of the spectrum, I have my td15m's and BMS cd's with no cabinet! It sucks too! Looking forward to hearing your impressions!

I currently have the td12m's and SEOS 12's with DNA 360's and love the sound so far. Hang in there!
post #88 of 150
Thread Starter 
luckily i have "back up" speakers till these get built, so its easy for me to be patient tongue.gif

just got the second coat of Duratex on. add me to the pile of people who think this stuff is awesome. i might have to hit a couple seams again that are still showing up close.

post #89 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

luckily i have "back up" speakers till these get built, so its easy for me to be patient tongue.gif

just got the second coat of Duratex on. add me to the pile of people who think this stuff is awesome. i might have to hit a couple seams again that are still showing up close.

Too funny, that's exactly what I'm doing tonight.
post #90 of 150
Thread Starter 
Great minds think alike!!!!
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