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Stereo Integrity 24" subwoofer - not kidding! - Page 14

post #391 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Oh god, I'm really in trouble.....I can fit two d/o 24" cabs on each side of the center channel, one stacked on the other, for total of 8 24s in the front. 22ft3 each cabinet, so they would net 10cubes each after bracing/drivers. so many options...the funny part is that the wood cost for these is about as much as a half dozen Daytons biggrin.gif Three sheets per cabinet whether I did d/o, side by side, tall cabs...whatever, it's still a few sheets for ever set of woofers.

Chop.
PLEASE, if you do this can I PLEASE come and have a listen??????
I'd love to hear what over 130DB at ULF must sound like!
I'm pretty sure I hit 130DB in the 6 to 10HZ range and I can take it no problem,
It seems I can really take the low well and it's just AWESOME!!!!
I'm addicted to the sound and feel of it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Hi FS,

Certainly not as accurate as progressive sweeps, but extreme accuracy isn't necessary for this comparison.



This is assuming that there is zero compression at 7.5 Hz. This shows massive compression everywhere but below 20 Hz, and especially on the top end.

I'm always playing with the MiniDSP trying all kind of things...those 2 graphs do not have identical settings on the MiniDSP, hence the difference is so drastic.
Quote:
I agree with Carp… do not sine sweep your sats to that high a level. Your system is obviously extremely bottom heavy, output capability-wise (and the posted graphs show them running around +12dB hot). You don't have to turn the rest of the system off, just stop the sweeps at 100-200 Hz (an octave above cross). IMO, it's very important to include the mains in sweeps because it's critical that they are well-mated for your preferred MVL playback level.

The sweeps will show you a more accurate frequency response at the playback level you actual listen at. Hope that makes sense, LMK if it doesn't.

Thanks for chiming in...I wish I knew 1/1000th of what you know! But I don't.
I will take the sweeps with the mains on. ( I don't care about my mains anymore anyways...they're going in the garbage! So what if they blow!
I'm doing the sweeps now...gonna take a 1/2 hour or so and will post the results right after,
Thanks again
post #392 of 522
Quote:
I don't care about my mains anymore anyways...they're going in the garbage! So what if they blow!

BLOW EM UP!!! Go for the magic smoke!!!! What are you buying to replace them Sergio?
post #393 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Chop.
PLEASE, if you do this can I PLEASE come and have a listen??????
I'd love to hear what over 130DB at ULF must sound like!
I'm pretty sure I hit 130DB in the 6 to 10HZ range and I can take it no problem,
It seems I can really take the low well and it's just AWESOME!!!!
I'm addicted to the sound and feel of it!

Of course, the more the merrier! I am waiting on a call from Nick now, so we'll see what happens.
post #394 of 522
Bosso,
What is wrong with the LMS 15's?
post #395 of 522
Just had a great conversation with Nick....I think these are in my very near future biggrin.gif

My only thoughts now are how many??? Four of them with 12-14kw would probably do more than enough, but 8 would surely be more than enough. Nick seemed to think the same way. You know you have issues when speaker components arrive and need to be moved on fork lifts...
post #396 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

BLOW EM UP!!! Go for the magic smoke!!!! What are you buying to replace them Sergio?

I'll be replacing my LCR's with the TUX-1099" as soon as it's available! I already ordered 4x Fushion8's for my surrounds! biggrin.gif


So Ok here are the results!
I even did a sweep at -5MV. eek.gif
No smoke everything still working fine! mad.gif
When the sweep got to the highs section it did alot of pfffffffftt sound eek.gif


Re: the graph
No EQ applied
MiniDSP set at default and set -10DB on the input level
Blue graph is the FTW21 - that's 2x FTW21 driven by a bridged 10Q amp at 8 ohms delivering 4200Watts or 2100W per sub.
Red graph is the SI18 - that's 2x SI18 on top of the 21's driven by a single channel of the 10Q at 2 ohms delivering 2500Watts or 1250W per sub
Mic is a CS UMM-6 always stayed at the same place (never moved it)
Mic is placed at the MLP (That's MY seat !)
BTW, this was fun!!!

Edited by Fatshaft - 11/23/13 at 11:13am
post #397 of 522
Haha, very clear here that your mains are in compression city without a shade of compression in the bass region that I can see. You need to do a 0-0 and +5 sweep and see if it is evident at that point. if you can handle it
post #398 of 522
You can see your tweeters start to bunch up pretty badly there. The mids aren't to bad, but some compression. The subs look perfectly fine though. I bet if you haven't leveled them -10db they would have started to really show the difference. Both seem to hold up well to 105db though.

I think you'll find your new speakers (both the Fusion 8 and tux10-99) to be able to do a lot better above 5khz. But to put it in perspective, the spectral content of most movies rarely, if ever, require 105db output above 5khz. Maybe even lower than that. So it's not pertinent.
post #399 of 522
Thanks for doing that Fatshaft! smile.gif


I'm getting greedy here, but do you mind doing it again but keep going up with the volume until we see the SI's start to compress and then continuing on (FTW's only no SI's) until the FTW's start to compress so we can get an idea of how much more headroom the FTW's have?

Turn off the mains though, there is no point in keeping them on unless you really do want to kill them! biggrin.gif

I'd love to see the comparison, but this is of course if you feel like messing with it and if you have time - thanks a ton man. smile.gif
post #400 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Pop is making the same mistake others in the RS VS UXL discussion by adding +6dB for doubling of drivers. You add +3dB for each doubling (2, 4, 8, 16, etc) to compare drivers.

bb, it's +6db for two drivers pushed to the same excursion limit. same thing as one driver with twice the xmax.

the equation for displacement limited spl in 2pi space is empirical:

spl = 94.3 + 20*LOG(excursion/500) + 40*LOG(frequency) + 40*LOG(diameter/1000) + 6 dB

where,
excursion is in mm
frequency is in hz
diameter is in mm (effective piston diameter of driver)

term 2 in the equation is 20 log excursion...6db for a double, not 3.
post #401 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

bb, it's +6db for two drivers pushed to the same excursion limit. same thing as one driver with twice the xmax.

the equation for displacement limited spl in 2pi space is empirical:

spl = 94.3 + 20*LOG(excursion/500) + 40*LOG(frequency) + 40*LOG(diameter/1000) + 6 dB

where,
excursion is in mm
frequency is in hz
diameter is in mm (effective piston diameter of driver)

term 2 in the equation is 20 log excursion...6db for a double, not 3.

I appreciate the math lesson.

If you power a driver to X-max, then how, if it suddenly had X-max*2, do you power it to ["same thing as] twice the X-max"?

Double the drivers = +3dB. To push 2 of them to the same excursion limit as one of them you need twice the power.

In the case of a $6,000 amplifier on a 220V-50A line, this would change the comparison exponentially.

Since I'm not good at the maths, you should build a system and buy the drivers being discussed and prove your point with actual data. smile.gif
post #402 of 522
In laymen, my understanding is that doubling effective sd while keeping the same power will yield a 3db gain.
i.e.: 1 sub at 500watts vs 2 subs at 500watts = +3db

However, doubling the power will add another 3db.
i.e.: 1 sub at 500 watts vs 2 subs at 1000 watts = +6db

Also, FWIW the SI's have a slight output advantage over the HO's according to klipple and D-B measurements...slight.
post #403 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

In laymen, my understanding is that doubling effective sd while keeping the same power will yield a 3db gain.
i.e.: 1 sub at 500watts vs 2 subs at 500watts = +3db

However, doubling the power will add another 3db.
i.e.: 1 sub at 500 watts vs 2 subs at 1000 watts = +6db

Also, FWIW the SI's have a slight output advantage over the HO's according to klipple and D-B measurements...slight.

Yep. Same as I've always understood it
post #404 of 522
"I appreciate the math lesson."

no problem.

popa and chop have it right.

but just to put a little more color to it...when you double drivers, but do not double power, excursion goes down by 41%, so you aren't using all that your drivers have to offer. doubling the power pushes them back up.
post #405 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I appreciate the math lesson."

no problem.

popa and chop have it right.

but just to put a little more color to it...when you double drivers, but do not double power, excursion goes down by 41%, so you aren't using all that your drivers have to offer. doubling the power pushes them back up.

Also one other thing I keep in consideration is the load the amp will see when adding another sub in the mix.

Under most circumstances I would say it's safe to assume that your not going to see a 3db increase from adding a sub.

i.e.:
1 sub with 500 watts @ 4 ohm = 0db
vs
2 subs with 250 watts @ 8 ohm = 0db
vs
2 subs with 1000 watts @ 2 ohm = +6db

The above example is assuming amplifier power doubles or halves based on impedance load, which seems to "typically" be the case in most scenarios/amps I've come across.

I guess one could argue that co-location of subs and maybe a few other external factors should be taken into consideration. While I agree, for this instance, I'm just pointing out the math as it would(should?) technically apply to all subs...

I've learned a lot from you Bosso...You are the last person I'd try to give a "math lesson" too... I'm just trying to understand the logic.
post #406 of 522
"Double the drivers = +3dB. To push 2 of them to the same excursion limit as one of them you need twice the power."

bb, this is backwards.

the drivers with less excursion don't require twice the power to push them to their xmax. because of the increase in sensitivity, they actually require half as much power for the same spl.

what is double is the size of the enclosure, otherwise you don't get the +3db of sensitivity and in that case more power is required.

here is the comparison.

two drivers with 15mm xmax (red) and a driver with 30mm xmax (blue). both systems get 1 watt. red is 3db more sensitive, so has 3db more spl everywhere. red is in 8 cubic feet total sealed. blue is in 4 cubic feet total sealed.



so now let's drive both systems to xmax. the red system we will put 1000 watts into it. and we will put 2000 watts into the blue system. (edit: they are both on exactly the same line even though it looks like red is missing)



as can be seen doubling power into the blue system brings it up to the level of the red system.

so the ***blue system*** requires twice the power for any given spl.

now, let's check excursion to see what is going on. the red drivers are at 15mm xmax, so they are maxed out. the blue driver is at 30mm, so it is maxed out.



to recap, doubling up on the less capable drivers gives an increase in sensitivity of +3db, but requires twice as much enclosure volume. the benefit is that only HALF as much amplification is required for any given spl level.
post #407 of 522
You guys make my head explode. biggrin.gif

Pop,

When you parallel wire, you double the power input. Double the # of drivers = +3dB and adding double the power to double the # of drivers = +6dB.

LTD,

You're showing 2 drivers giving EQUAL output. Give them EQUAL POWER and you get +3dB. If you want +6dB, you need to double the drivers AND double the power.

Remedial reading:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/faq.htm#Q21
Quote:
Q21 - Why does SPL increase 6 dB for two drivers in parallel, when the electrical power consumed only increases by 3 dB?

A21 - The acoustic power Pa radiated from a small source at long wavelengths is the product of the radiating piston area Ap, the square of the piston velocity vp, and the real part of the piston's radiation impedance Zp:

Pa = (vp)2 Ap Re{ Zp }

Since the real part of Zp is also proportional to the radiating area Ap, it follows that the radiated power is proportional to the square of piston velocity and the square of piston area:

Pa ~ (vp)2 (Ap)2

When two identical drivers are connected in parallel, each piston moves with the same velocity as the single driver, because the current through each voice coil is the same as before. The total radiating area has doubled, and the radiated acoustic power has increased fourfold (10 log (4) = 6 dB) over that of the single driver. The electrical power consumed by the two drivers has merely doubled (+3 dB).
With 4x acoustic power for 2x electric power you have a 3 dB increase in power conversion efficiency.

The sound pressure p at some distance from the source is proportional to the square root of radiated acoustic power.

p ~ (Pa)1/2 ~ vp Ap

When the piston area Ap is doubled and the piston velocity vp stays unchanged, then the pressure doubles (20 log (2) = 6 dB).

In summary, when two identical drivers are connected in parallel and driven with constant voltage, then twice the electrical power is consumed (+3 dB), the radiated acoustic power is increased by a factor of four (+6 dB), and the free space sound pressure level is doubled (+6 dB) at a given distance.

Note that piston velocity and displacement are proportional to each other and both are directly related to the current through the voice coil. With two identical drivers connected in series, piston displacement and velocity decrease to 1/2, but the piston area doubles, which leaves the sound pressure and radiated power unchanged (0 dB) compared to a single driver connected to the same voltage. Electrical power dissipation is now 1/2 (-3 dB) and again the power conversion efficiency has doubled.

The bottom line is that it takes 2 SIs to equal 1 UXL. Box, wiring and amplifier scenarios are irrelevant. Josh has already proved it.
post #408 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

You guys make my head explode. biggrin.gif

Pop,

When you parallel wire, you double the power input. Double the # of drivers = +3dB and adding double the power to double the # of drivers = +6dB.

LTD,

You're showing 2 drivers giving EQUAL output. Give them EQUAL POWER and you get +3dB. If you want +6dB, you need to double the drivers AND double the power.

Remedial reading:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/faq.htm#Q21
The bottom line is that it takes 2 SIs to equal 1 UXL. Box, wiring and amplifier scenarios are irrelevant. Josh has already proved it.

I'm not getting into the whole UXL vs SI. Not sure why your head is exploding though...I think what we said in simple terms a few posts up is double the woofers, same power=3db...double both=6db, the same thing you are re-stating above. Assuming everyone is familiar with series, parallel, series/parallel, etc wiring and what it does to the load, We all seem to be agreeing on the basic point of the debate.

Now, I haven't had a UXL and an SI, so I won't pretend to get into an informed debate about the different abilities of them. Math/Physics will tell the story on paper, and experience will tell what happens in the real world. I will say though, when a comment is made like, " the Dayton and the SI are not world class drivers and the UXL is" I don't listen much further. They are all good drivers and it seems like a biased opinion. I'd like to learn from the folks who know more than me(which is most of you biggrin.gif ) and it's certainly your right to debate whatever points you'd like. I just though a little perspective on how it comes off might help.
post #409 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

You guys make my head explode. biggrin.gif

Pop,

When you parallel wire, you double the power input. Double the # of drivers = +3dB and adding double the power to double the # of drivers = +6dB.

LTD,

You're showing 2 drivers giving EQUAL output. Give them EQUAL POWER and you get +3dB. If you want +6dB, you need to double the drivers AND double the power.

Bosso, without using the terms "series" or "parallel" I attempted to communicate exactly what you convey above. Allow me to update my original post.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Also one other thing I keep in consideration is the load the amp will see when adding another sub in the mix.

Under most circumstances I would say it's safe to assume that your not going to see a 3db increase from adding a sub.

i.e.:
1 sub with 500 watts @ 4 ohm = 0db Baseline 4 ohm load
vs
2 subs with 250 watts @ 8 ohm = 0db 2 subs in series on same amp
vs
2 subs with 1000 watts @ 2 ohm = +6db 2 subs in parallel on same amp

The above example is assuming amplifier power doubles or halves based on impedance load, which seems to "typically" be the case in most scenarios/amps I've come across.

My bad for failing to convey that originally. I find it tough sometimes to get as detailed as I want or proof read my post because I'm always short on time and/or trying to post using my cell (hate it!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The bottom line is that it takes 2 SIs to equal 1 UXL. Box, wiring and amplifier scenarios are irrelevant. Josh has already proved it.

Pulled this chart comparison of the SI vs the UXL from DB:

UXLvsSI_zps4c96f67a.jpg

Now, looking at the max long term output (using 50Hz as a baseline) I see the UXL has a 3db advantage over the SI. This seems consistent above 50Hz. With that said, is it not safe to assume that adding another SI to the equation (based on the remedial reading that was posted) that one would effectively see a +6db gain over what the graph reads above, effectively yielding a +3db advantage over the UXL above 50hz? Or am I missing something else?

For further perspective, here is the HO vs the UXL using the same 50Hz baseline:

UXLvsHO_zps0b1b39da.jpg

It's obvious that the UXL has a +5db advantage over the HO in this instance. Now add another HO and it's more in line with "equaling" the output of the UXL.

We all know a few db isn't a huge deal, but it seems to me (based on the charts above) that one would be able to discern an audible output difference between one (1) UXL and two (2) SI's. No doubt in my mind that the UXL is the superior driver. I would not dispute that for one second. I am only taking issue with utilization of the term "equal."

I'm just trying to figure out if I am mis-interpreting Josh's test results. Or if I am somehow not comparing apples-to-apples because I consistently use the above logic when/if I want to make a quick comparison from a "numbers" stand point. That's actually one of the primary reasons I love DB so much---because I assumed a level laying field accross the board which allows me (us) to be able to do a quick, simple and objective comparison in a few seconds with as much subjectivity (as possible) removed from the equation.

If this isn't the case, I need to know why...please.
post #410 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

LTD,
You're showing 2 drivers giving EQUAL output. Give them EQUAL POWER and you get +3dB.

that's not correct and was the whole point of the post. perhaps you read too fast.
post #411 of 522
"I'm just trying to figure out if I am mis-interpreting Josh's test results. Or if I am somehow not comparing apples-to-apples because I consistently use the above logic when/if I want to make a quick comparison from a "numbers" stand point."

bb, just keeps confusing the whole point which is why it is confusing. :-)

this is really a simple topic.

case: two of the same driver.
when you add a second driver same as the first, you get +3 increase in sensitivity if you also increase the enclosure size by two times.
if you connect the second driver in parallel with the first, the impedance falls by half, the amp power doubles and you get another 3db, but that is a different topic.
if you connect the second driver in series with the first, the impedance doubles, the amp power halves and the net gain is zero, but that too is a different topic.
when you add a second driver same as the first, and apply the same power, you get +3db in spl and each driver excursion is not maxed out, it drops by about 40%.
to max out the drivers again, doubling the power is required and you get another +3db for a total gain of +6db.

case: 1 driver with 30mm xmax vs. 2 drivers with 15mm xmax and all other things equal.
this is the example that I showed above. blue is the single driver with 30mm xmax and red is the dual driver system with 15mm each.
connecting 1 watt to each will produce 3db more in the system with two drivers, so it is 3db more sensitive.
SO FOR ANY GIVEN SPL, THE DUAL DRIVER SYSTEM WILL REQUIRE HALF AS MUCH POWER.
now, let's push each system to the max.
1000 watts total pushes the 2 driver system to 15mm xmax for each driver. so it is done. spl at 20hz is 111db from the equation that I posted above.
to push the single driver to 30mm requires 2000 watts. so it is done. spl at 20hz is 111db from the equation that I posted above.

so two drivers with 15mm xmax vs. 1 driver with 30mm xmax can produce the same max spl at 20hz.
the system with the two drivers will require HALF AS MUCH TOTAL POWER as the single driver system because it is more sensitive.


..............

"Now, looking at the max long term output (using 50Hz as a baseline) I see the UXL has a 3db advantage over the SI. This seems consistent above 50Hz. With that said, is it not safe to assume that adding another SI to the equation (based on the remedial reading that was posted) that one would effectively see a +6db gain over what the graph reads above, effectively yielding a +3db advantage over the UXL above 50hz? Or am I missing something else?"

that's right, but it is a little muddied up because josh's results are measured results and are different from this in that all kinds of things other than what is being discussed figure into the measurements, such as the cooling capability of the driver, the nature of the bl rolloff in the driver, large signal t/s, etc.


...............

"In summary, when two identical drivers are connected in parallel and driven with constant voltage, then twice the electrical power is consumed (+3 dB), the radiated acoustic power is increased by a factor of four (+6 dB), and the free space sound pressure level is doubled (+6 dB) at a given distance.

Note that piston velocity and displacement are proportional to each other and both are directly related to the current through the voice coil. With two identical drivers connected in series, piston displacement and velocity decrease to 1/2, but the piston area doubles, which leaves the sound pressure and radiated power unchanged (0 dB) compared to a single driver connected to the same voltage. Electrical power dissipation is now 1/2 (-3 dB) and again the power conversion efficiency has doubled."

+1. that is correct.
Edited by LTD02 - 11/21/13 at 8:16am
post #412 of 522
How can the SI take 118 volts and the UXL take 93 volts to get those results? I thought the UXL can handle much more power than the SI. Maybe the box was very small for the SI to allow so much power to be used? The UXL box was better suited for it? Winisd does not show the UXL to model that well for some reason, I need to input some better parameters.
post #413 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How can the SI take 118 volts and the UXL take 93 volts to get those results? I thought the UXL can handle much more power than the SI. Maybe the box was very small for the SI to allow so much power to be used? The UXL box was better suited for it? Winisd does not show the UXL to model that well for some reason, I need to input some better parameters.

Tests were never officially finished with the UXL18. IIRC it burned up/failed during Ricci's gauntlet of tests and the data we have is all he got before failure.
post #414 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post


Now, looking at the max long term output (using 50Hz as a baseline) I see the UXL has a 3db advantage over the SI. This seems consistent above 50Hz. With that said, is it not safe to assume that adding another SI to the equation (based on the remedial reading that was posted) that one would effectively see a +6db gain over what the graph reads above, effectively yielding a +3db advantage over the UXL above 50hz? Or am I missing something else?

If a driver has a 3db advantage, then it takes TWO of the other drivers to match it. It does not see a 6db gain yielding a 3db advantage. It sees a 3db gain yielding a 0db advantage. You're letting the double amp power factor into your decision. But that's not driver related. That's an amp thing.
post #415 of 522
So I am starting to think something is either worng with my winisd or my brain, not sure which biggrin.gif

My models are done on my laptop at home and I'm at the office, so I can't post pics at the moment, but it doesn't seem right. I have been modeling the 24s vs 16 Dayton HO18s and the results I'm getting on win would suggest no reason to change. I can''t believe that the Daytons would equal 8 of the 24s with the same power, but that's what winisd is telling me...in fact, it's saying the Daytons actually have an advantage in some areas, slight, but there none the less. Anyone else model comparo's with these yet?
post #416 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

If a driver has a 3db advantage, then it takes TWO of the other drivers to match it. It does not see a 6db gain yielding a 3db advantage. It sees a 3db gain yielding a 0db advantage. You're letting the double amp power factor into your decision. But that's not driver related. That's an amp thing.

Well, I think most of us understand that it takes two drivers to equal the UXL but who is not going to double the amp power? Basically, take a UXL in a proper sized box and place 2000 watts of power to it or whatever it takes to reach x-max. Then compare two boxes of the SI with each having the same 800 watts of power and which one plays louder? Why would I build a box for the SI with amp and build a box for another and not add an amp?

I have to say this to bust some chops here, a world class driver should not fail under tests when the just OK drivers never failed. wink.gif I am just messing with you Bosso, I know the UXL is a better.
post #417 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

So I am starting to think something is either worng with my winisd or my brain, not sure which biggrin.gif

My models are done on my laptop at home and I'm at the office, so I can't post pics at the moment, but it doesn't seem right. I have been modeling the 24s vs 16 Dayton HO18s and the results I'm getting on win would suggest no reason to change. I can''t believe that the Daytons would equal 8 of the 24s with the same power, but that's what winisd is telling me...in fact, it's saying the Daytons actually have an advantage in some areas, slight, but there none the less. Anyone else model comparo's with these yet?

It is about displacement.
post #418 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It is about displacement.

Yeah, but by my figures, it seems as it should take 24, ironically, of the Daytons to equal the dispalcement of the 8 Si24s. On top of that, I would have the the 24s would extend lower with more authority, but the win results would not suggest that. I know win is just a tool, but it seems weird.
post #419 of 522
correction, my math was wrong...it looks like 16 Daytons equal a touch more sd than 8 of the 24s. What other considerations would you guys be making before making the move to the 24s if you were me?
post #420 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

correction, my math was wrong...it looks like 16 Daytons equal a touch more sd than 8 of the 24s. What other considerations would you guys be making before making the move to the 24s if you were me?

Since i am not familiar with a lot of you guys like others appear to be i am not sure if you meant something different than exactly what you typed or not. You would want to consider not only the total Sd but the Sd times Xmax for toal displacement. The total surface area wont mean a whole lot without the Xmax or Xmech. depending on which one is the limiting factor.
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