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4 Pi vs DIY Sound Group's Fusion Sentinel 15" - Page 9

post #241 of 297
personally, i think it was a great thread as it asked some tough questions with respect to the seos design.

after thinking hard about wayne's comments on the two horns on his site (regadless of whoever ash r is) and analyzing all the data again, i've become convinced that the seos is not only a good design, but is at least as good overall and in some ways superior to the h290c.

on a personal level, i like wayne. i have learned a ton from him over the years and he has made countless very substantive contributions to threads like the econowave thread over the years. i'm am grateful for what i have learned from him. i mean lets keep a little perspective here. even if wayne goes a little batty, who else is there, dave wilson? eek.gif

part of his zealous defense of his product in the marketplace has got to be because this is just not his hobby, it is his living. seaton would probably start getting pretty defensive of the subm if "the enthusiasts" designed a dual opposed subwoofer system, with active dsp free for the asking, 2000w of class d power, posted measurements showing comparable or better performance than the subm, and erich plopped a flat pack that looked significantly better into the marketplace for an 'everything included' price of $600 and other guys were offering assembling for $50. ;-)
post #242 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

personally, i think it was a great thread as it asked some tough questions with respect to the seos design.

after thinking hard about wayne's comments on the two horns on his site (regadless of whoever ash r is) and analyzing all the data again, i've become convinced that the seos is not only a good design, but is at least as good overall and in some ways superior to the h290c.

on a personal level, i like wayne. i have learned a ton from him over the years and he has made countless very substantive contributions to threads like the econowave thread over the years. i'm am grateful for what i have learned from him. i mean lets keep a little perspective here. even if wayne goes a little batty, who else is there, dave wilson? eek.gif

part of his zealous defense of his product in the marketplace has got to be because this is just not his hobby, it is his living. seaton would probably start getting pretty defensive of the subm if "the enthusiasts" designed a dual opposed subwoofer system, with active dsp free for the asking, 2000w of class d power, posted measurements showing comparable or better performance than the subm, and erich plopped a flat pack that looked significantly better into the marketplace for an 'everything included' price of $600 and other guys were offering assembling for $50. ;-)

Well said, John.
post #243 of 297
LTD, I felt the same prior to what he pulled. I was actually concerned about something like this happening (not specifically with Pi) but with businesses being threatened.

Because of the discussions I had in private with Wayne, I feel a bit differently about his behavior now and that is why I'm being more vocal. I generally live and let live...so long as I'm not being screwed.

Yes, Zheka, my understanding is that Wayne was given a stay of execution and his posts were cleaned up. I'm not sure I'd read that as taking the high road...although I did give him the benefit of the doubt at the time.

Edit:

One other thing. There are also the SEOS-15 and SEOS-18 which are dimensionally closer to Wayne's preference. Instead he chooses to analyze the SEOS-12 which doesn't fit his worldview. Should he have put up a dissertation on why Geddes round OS guides are poor? How about tractrix and L'Cleach? What about the elliptical guides by Pellegrine that look quite nice using domes?

If he had simply pointed out the differences between his horn and a shorter horn with a larger mouth radius and why he chose his shape there would be no problem. Instead he took it to the point of disparaging the designers of SEOS as a bunch of hobbyists (I don't recall him mentoring Keele or teaching James B Lansing, but I guess if you have been in the hobby long enough you aren't a hobbyist???) who simply don't know anything. The H290C is not the end-all be-all (nor is the SEOS). If it were, JBL would have bought the rights and put it in their latest and greatest. I'm not saying it is worse than what JBL (or Klipsch, or TAD or QSC, etc etc) use but that there are varying design choices. My guess is that Wayne felt that the SEOS group was both threatening and an easy target (there isn't a marketing budget, thousands of whitepapers, Spice models, or PhD's behind it).
Edited by coctostan - 4/26/13 at 11:15am
post #244 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

Seaton would probably start getting pretty defensive of the subm if "the enthusiasts" designed a dual opposed subwoofer system, with active dsp free for the asking, 2000w of class d power, posted measurements showing comparable or better performance than the subm, and erich plopped a flat pack that looked significantly better into the marketplace for an 'everything included' price of $600 and other guys were offering assembling for $50. ;-)

Seaton's products and designs are made of magic, chocolate rivers, rainbows, and euphoria. You can't clone that smile.gif

I would say the most limiting factor keeping all of us from having Catalyst 12 systems is our wallets. That, and enthusiasts always like to push the envelope to see if things can be made even better all the time through experimentation.
post #245 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Seaton's products and designs are made of magic, chocolate rivers, rainbows, and euphoria. You can't clone that smile.gif

I would say the most limiting factor keeping all of us from having Catalyst 12 systems is our wallets. That, and enthusiasts always like to push the envelope to see if things can be made even better all the time through experimentation.

The limiting factor is the design understanding Mr. Seaton has based on his experience, observations and study. That and his endless supply of chocolate rivers and oompah loompahs.
post #246 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

The limiting factor is the design understanding Mr. Seaton has based on his experience, observations and study. That and his endless supply of chocolate rivers and oompah loompahs.

Absolutely. Guys like him and Jeff are on another level.
post #247 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Absolutely. Guys like him and Jeff are on another level.

also, i dont feel like the SEOS designers are in the business of "cloning" other speakers. most of the stuff i have seen are totally original. look at Malcom, David, Tux's inwall, the different component variations everyone is doing. this isnt about cloning products at all. There is definitely inspiration from other designs, and standards set, but thats as far as it goes IMO.
post #248 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Seaton's products and designs are made of magic, chocolate rivers, rainbows, and euphoria. You can't clone that smile.gif

I would say the most limiting factor keeping all of us from having Catalyst 12 systems is our wallets. That, and enthusiasts always like to push the envelope to see if things can be made even better all the time through experimentation.

The limiting factor is the design understanding Mr. Seaton has based on his experience, observations and study. That and his endless supply of chocolate rivers and oompah loompahs.

Anyone who knows me knows that's more likely to be a river of coffee or espresso rather than chocolate. tongue.gif I think I'll have to bring in a spray tanner for the oompah loompah shot.
post #249 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

personally, i think it was a great thread as it asked some tough questions with respect to the seos design.

after thinking hard about wayne's comments on the two horns on his site (regadless of whoever ash r is) and analyzing all the data again, i've become convinced that the seos is not only a good design, but is at least as good overall and in some ways superior to the h290c.

on a personal level, i like wayne. i have learned a ton from him over the years and he has made countless very substantive contributions to threads like the econowave thread over the years. i'm am grateful for what i have learned from him. i mean lets keep a little perspective here. even if wayne goes a little batty, who else is there, dave wilson? eek.gif

It really is all in how things are said and posed. Wayne has a very long track record of reacting strongly to any questioning or alternates posed to his own designs and ideals.
Quote:
part of his zealous defense of his product in the marketplace has got to be because this is just not his hobby, it is his living.

Are you sure about that? I'm fairly confident Pi Speakers is just a sideline to a real job. I know it was still a side project maybe 7-10 years ago.
Quote:
seaton would probably start getting pretty defensive of the subm if "the enthusiasts" designed a dual opposed subwoofer system, with active dsp free for the asking, 2000w of class d power, posted measurements showing comparable or better performance than the subm, and erich plopped a flat pack that looked significantly better into the marketplace for an 'everything included' price of $600 and other guys were offering assembling for $50. ;-)

You're kidding, right?

Many have built dual opposed 15s inspired by the SubMersive, some publicly thanking me for posting up the external dimension drawings they worked off of. Many of the dual 18" subs being built have been directly compared, and I've continued to give hints and nudges for DIYers to further improve the end result. The parts & pieces to do things similar are all there, someone just needs to put in the time, work, ,measurement, experimentation and listening that go into getting great results. I finally started building the SubMersive years ago after continually asking other businesses to build something like it, but most would skip some aspect I felt was important. Similarly most will make divergent choices from those I make. Some feel those choices might be preferred, but they are different none the less.

If anything, I prefer to give bits of input an help to DIYers on their own path, as it is not uncommon that their efforts will parallel or converge with some of my own. In the cases where that helps them toward enhanced enjoyment of their system, I consider it a win. I'm much more interested in others finding merit in my priorities than in the very personal and subjective value per dollar.
post #250 of 297
Mark,

Are measurements of the Catalysts (SPL, off-axis, polars, etc) publicly available?

thank you
post #251 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post




Many have built dual opposed 15s inspired by the SubMersive, some publicly thanking me for posting up the external dimension drawings they worked off of. Many of the dual 18" subs being built have been directly compared, and I've continued to give hints and nudges for DIYers to further improve the end result. The parts & pieces to do things similar are all there, someone just needs to put in the time, work, ,measurement, experimentation and listening that go into getting great results. I finally started building the SubMersive years ago after continually asking other businesses to build something like it, but most would skip some aspect I felt was important. Similarly most will make divergent choices from those I make. Some feel those choices might be preferred, but they are different none the less.

If anything, I prefer to give bits of input an help to DIYers on their own path, as it is not uncommon that their efforts will parallel or converge with some of my own. In the cases where that helps them toward enhanced enjoyment of their system, I consider it a win. I'm much more interested in others finding merit in my priorities than in the very personal and subjective value per dollar.

the Submersive was ABSOLUTELY the inspiration for my DO 18's.

there is no reason Wayne could not have the same relationship with the AVS DIY community that Mark, Jeff, Bill, and other professionals have. a big missed opportunity IMO
post #252 of 297
I guess a lot of noise has been inspired by interpretations of my rough-looking, in-box, in-room plot of a SEOS12 during design of the 'Designer 10' speaker:


Not as nice as something that's a little smoother-looking such as this one:


Or, better yet, something more like this beauty:


I'm sure some of you, but apparently not all, can see what I'm doing here:
...guys, those plots are all of the same data.

If you squash a frequency response graph horizontally (like in PCD, which generated the top plot), it will look less flat. If you squash it vertically (like the plot just above), it will look flatter.

And if you look at data that has a 5dB variation, with grid lines so aligned, you might find that appalling:


...when compared to something that looks like it could be easily tweaked to a +/- 2.5dB curve:


Again, same data, altered presentation (grid lines shifted). Honest engineering data doesn't care how it is presented because it is assumed that people will look at the horizontal and vertical axes of the plot when seeing what it means (though some data I've seen looked like the presenter didn't find those minor factors important: rolleyes:). And it's also assumed that there are other conditions involved in the measurement. A measurement made with a box that used X brand wood screws doesn't mean the wood screws were responsible for every feature in the plot. There is always context to consider.

It might also be worth it to look a little deeper into those frightening +/-2.5 dB ripples, so lets do a little analysis.

They look like they're strongest at lower frequencies, and periodic with a spacing between peaks of about 2.5kHz. 2.5kHz has a period of 0.4 milliseconds (=1/f). Periodicity implies an interference pattern being the source, with the peaks spaced at whole wavelengths of the time shift between the two interfering sources. So that delay would be about 0.4milliseconds, the time, over which sound travels about 5.4 inches. The usual source is a reflection, and the time shift is the delay of the reflected wave arrival at the microphone after the original. A reflection off the SEOS12 mouth, back to the driver to meet at the original source would be twice the depth of the horn.... the SEOS12 is 3.5 inches deep, so 7 inches.

The measurement was made in an old Advent Maestro cabinet, which has a top lip of about 1.2" long overhanging the baffle, and it is a little over 5" away from the center of the SEOS. The SEOS's vertical directivity is about gone at the lower passband frequencies (because of horn height), so directivity wouldn't keep the waves away until at higher frequencies. I seems to add up. You have to take measurements in context (and those were made to design a speaker in the old Econowave tradition, re-using an existing cabinet).

Here is a plot of the SEOS12 horn in the Erich-made box (with no overhangs) used for working with 12-inch woofers (I was measuring design curves at 20 degree horizontal angles at that time, too):


And there's this often posted picture, measured with no baffle at all, with foam background.

Is the dead horse beaten well enough tongue.gif ?
post #253 of 297
Thanks Bill, I was wondering if it was diffraction, but couldn't figure out how it could be given a horn and assumed a smooth baffle. Didn't look at your DS10 thread close enough to realize there was a giant overhang there. Makes much more sense now.
post #254 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

seaton would probably start getting pretty defensive of the subm if "the enthusiasts" designed a dual opposed subwoofer system, with active dsp free for the asking, 2000w of class d power, posted measurements showing comparable or better performance than the subm, and erich plopped a flat pack that looked significantly better into the marketplace for an 'everything included' price of $600 and other guys were offering assembling for $50. ;-)
No, he wouldn't. There are guys who build, and there are guys who buy, and there's very little overlap of the two crowds. However, there are also guys who make much of their living selling speaker components, and those guys do see alternate suppliers of those components as competition. Mark doesn't view every DIY cab built as a sale lost because inveterate DIYers would never have bought a cab from him anyway. Wayne might very well view every SEOS built as a driver/horn/crossover sale lost.
post #255 of 297
I'd actually like to point out that you, Bill are a great example of handling competition. You sell speaker plans. The SEOS plans must be in direct competition with you. Sure, your market is a little more geared to pro audio, but there's still quite a bit of overlap. And I haven't heard a single negative comment from you. Thanks.
post #256 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I'd actually like to point out that you, Bill are a great example of handling competition. You sell speaker plans. The SEOS plans must be in direct competition with you. Sure, your market is a little more geared to pro audio, but there's still quite a bit of overlap. And I haven't heard a single negative comment from you. Thanks.
If someone asked me to compare SEOS to my designs I'd direct them to the appropriate place to discuss it, which is my forum. This thread doesn't have my name at the top of it, and neither does this forum, so to do otherwise would simply be bad manners, and my Momma taught me better than that. wink.gif
post #257 of 297
"You're kidding, right?"

i think you know what i meant. i didn't mean to suggest that you would turn into wayne. apologies if it came across the wrong way.
post #258 of 297
Well, I must have missed some interesting posts while at work today. Probably better that way. rolleyes.gif I know no one has ever started out bashing the Pi Speakers, and many people (including myself) have said they are good. But when someone pushes so hard against the SEOS, and purposely over steps the line 30 times with insults, at some point enough is enough. What stinks is that I know this will all happen again at some point and I've never done anything to provoke it. Heck, I actually asked Wayne if he wanted to help out.


For the record, I have stayed away from any speakers or subwoofers that appear to be direct competition for Bill F or Mark S. I've read enough posts from both of them over the years to realize that they truly enjoy what they do and they're extremely helpful while doing it. I've even sent PM's to Mark letting him know that I do not want to get anything made that might compete with his offerings. If there ever was anything like it, hopefully he would have designed it. biggrin.gif

It was also a reason why I didn't get any flat packs cut for anything bigger than the Anarchy tapped horn.

There is a very good chance that I will be getting some complete speakers made up in the future. But I'm going to do my best to stay away from competing designs. That shouldn't be too hard because I think there's plenty of room for the stuff we're working on. Plus nothing will be actively crossed over, or use the large folded horns.

There are some passive radiator subwoofers that Jeff Bagby designed, but as far as I know, they don't compete with Bill or Mark's products.

I'm here to make friends, not enemies.
post #259 of 297
Well, nobody here knows me but I've been eatin' popcorn while reading this whole damn thread. I'm actually a big fan of Pi Speakers and I bought 3 kits of the 4 Pi in their basic form for my modest basement living room theater. I'm also a fan of the SEOS project and the amazing deals DIY Sound Group is putting out. I think the biggest misconception here is that Wayne makes his living off of these speakers, kits, and (free) plans he provides. This guy is really like a precursor to the awesomeness of Erich H with the caveat that he happens to be a great speaker designer and he just gives away his own product. Yes, that's right. I bought kits from him but I also priced out everything on Parts Express. It was a pretty much break even for me except that I got a crossover assembled on a PCB, input cup terminals with speaker wire cut to length and terminated properly for the internal connections, and a personal guarantee that everything will preform as described. There is no way this guy makes money on these speakers! Well, maybe a little money and maybe that's why he holds on so strongly. Did I just sound like a hypocrite?

Anyway, to me the SEOS and the 4 Pi are both extremely good values. They both accomplish pretty much the same thing. Neither is the end all be all speaker for the world. The OP has gotten his answer a million times over.

This thread should be dead, Zed.
post #260 of 297
Before anything else I'll just go ahead and tell you that I'm still on page 3 but my question is relevant to me for reading the rest.

To all you people who have contributed with listening impressions for Pi speakers and SEOS designs.
What are you're references? There are spakers costing a $1000,000 and there are consumer speakers for very affordable money.
If someone say it's the best he's ever heard it would be informative to hear what he's compared it to.

I'll get back to reading now... cool.gif
post #261 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by markusA View Post

Before anything else I'll just go ahead and tell you that I'm still on page 3 but my question is relevant to me for reading the rest.

To all you people who have contributed with listening impressions for Pi speakers and SEOS designs.
What are you're references? There are spakers costing a $1000,000 and there are consumer speakers for very affordable money.
If someone say it's the best he's ever heard it would be informative to hear what he's compared it to.

I'll get back to reading now... cool.gif

I will only list speakers I used in my current room. I owned and listened to many others over the years but in different environment and/or not long enough to make meaningful comparisons.

ACI Protege, Ascend Sierra-1, Ascend CBT-170, CHT SHO-10 and now 4Pi.

Disclaimer: two days spent at the Axpona confirmed my suspicion that I am a sucker for horn sound. Well, horns and planars actually.
post #262 of 297
I have no doubt that the 4 PI would best the SHO-10 as just the driver with the 2226 cost almost as much as the whole CHT. I have owned the DE-250 and excellent eminence 3012HO in an upgraded eD cinema speaker. That 3012HO comes very close to the 2226 IMHO. I have owned the 2226 as well. There are other speakers I prefer for less. Just my opinion though.
post #263 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I have no doubt that the 4 PI would best the SHO-10 as just the driver with the 2226 cost almost as much as the whole CHT. I have owned the DE-250 and excellent eminence 3012HO in an upgraded eD cinema speaker. That 3012HO comes very close to the 2226 IMHO. I have owned the 2226 as well. There are other speakers I prefer for less. Just my opinion though.
I never heard the basic 4pi (Eminence PSD2002/Omega15) but Wayne says that the difference between it and the upgraded version (DE250/2226H) is very subtle, mostly evident during long listening sessions. The upgraded version is less fatiguing
post #264 of 297
I'll have to look those speakers up. It appears the market is a little different comparing Europe an the U.S. smile.gif
post #265 of 297
So I ready this whole thing and not a single person seemed to have heard both designs?? What a waste of time. How about instead of all this lame bickering about this and that someone with one speaker meets up with someone with the other speaker and has a demo night for those who can attend. There has to be at least one person with each speaker on this board that lives within a few miles of each other. Once this is done the people who heard both can talk about their experiences and we can call it day.
post #266 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by nubz69 View Post

So I ready this whole thing and not a single person seemed to have heard both designs?? What a waste of time. How about instead of all this lame bickering about this and that someone with one speaker meets up with someone with the other speaker and has a demo night for those who can attend. There has to be at least one person with each speaker on this board that lives within a few miles of each other. Once this is done the people who heard both can talk about their experiences and we can call it day.

Since there are not a huge number of 4Pi owners and a whole lot less Sentinel owners, there may not be any near each other.
Reply
Reply
post #267 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by nubz69 View Post

So I ready this whole thing and not a single person seemed to have heard both designs?? What a waste of time. How about instead of all this lame bickering about this and that someone with one speaker meets up with someone with the other speaker and has a demo night for those who can attend. There has to be at least one person with each speaker on this board that lives within a few miles of each other. Once this is done the people who heard both can talk about their experiences and we can call it day.
I'd gladly host such an event. We could even do a "blind" test. I have an AT screen to hide the speakers behind. I do not know any Sentinels owners in Chicago area. Matt, the designer, is not too far, but I do not think he has a pair.
Edited by zheka - 5/5/13 at 7:38pm
post #268 of 297
If anyone in the northeast has a 4pi front stage I'd be happy to compare with my sentinels. I also have an AT screen for blind listening.
post #269 of 297
Rilla, assuming I get back to Maryland this summer I have a pair of 4 Pi's, with the B&C250 and JBL 2226 upgrade.
post #270 of 297
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post

Rilla, assuming I get back to Maryland this summer I have a pair of 4 Pi's, with the B&C250 and JBL 2226 upgrade.

Give me a shout for sure when you're around. biggrin.gif
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