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Sub help - what to get for my new TR???? - Page 3

Poll Results: Which dual sub set-up to buy?

 
  • 0% (0)
    1. Dual SVS PB1000 - $949
  • 46% (6)
    2. Dual SVS PB12-NSD - $1449
  • 53% (7)
    3. Dual Klipsch SW-115 - $950
13 Total Votes  
post #61 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

There are plenty of measurements for the mk3, and since they are so similar, the performance of the mk4 can be reasonably inferred. The mk4 is essentially the same sub except with the inclusion of the Q control and some other minor improvements.

Please share the CEA 2010 measurements of the VTF-3 MK3 to support your claim. Now if you are going to point to Ilkkas measurements, be sure to note that the VTF-3 MK3 has pretty high harmonic distortion going on at the higher output sweeps:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5761-hsu-vtf-3-mk3-maximum-extension.html#post45153
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5762-hsu-vtf-3-mk3-maximum-output.html#post45160
post #62 of 138
You can use Ilkka's measurements to understand it's performance, although I wouldn't use them as CEA2010 measurements. You will also note the majority of that distortion is lower order harmonic distortion, which isn't as perceivable as higher order harmonic distortion. You'll also note much less compression at the maximum sweeps than the PB12 where a 110 dB sweep is basically the same thing as a 105 dB sweep.
post #63 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

That's what I would think. SPL doesn't seem to be an issue here with any of the subs being considered given the room size. There should be more than enough, but the OP can know based on how his S12.3 performs in that room.

I need to try this, take my S12/3 from the family room & hook it up since I have things running now. This may give me a good base level to go from since the PB12-NSB should be even better & the XV15.
post #64 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

You can use Ilkka's measurements to understand it's performance, although I wouldn't use them as CEA2010 measurements. You will also note the majority of that distortion is lower order harmonic distortion, which isn't as perceivable as higher order harmonic distortion. You'll also note much less compression at the maximum sweeps than the PB12 where a 110 dB sweep is basically the same thing as a 105 dB sweep.

The 105 db sweeps show the PB12 to have far lower distortion than the VTF-3 MK3, particularly in ME mode, where the harmonic distortion is off the charts from the low 30hz range all down for the VTF3.3. So any extra output above 105db comes at the expense of high amounts of distortion in that mode. I wouldn't be surprised if the PB12 could achieve similar performance IF not for the built in limiter.
post #65 of 138
Thread Starter 
Watched our first movie tonight even though I told my wife that I hadn't set up the sound or picture yet. I was amazed at how good it sounded with only my subs in each tower & I haven't even done any calibration yet. I can't wait to here it after I get even one sub in there let alone 2 subs!
post #66 of 138
Whatever performance the PB12 might have had isn't pertinent, SVS traded output for a picture perfect frequency response and distortion profile, and it isn't a worthwhile trade when you have mini subs with more slam. My complaint isn't about the PB12s deep bass anyway, which is very good, it is about the mid bass. Yes, the Hsu has a lot of distortion below 30 hz in ME mode, however, like I said, that is mostly lower harmonic order distortion, and not that audible. And keep in mind the version Ilkka is testing is an old version of the mk3, even within the mk3 line there were system changes made. You can tell the difference because the old mk3s did not have a satin black finish, they have the rougher black finish like you see in Ilkka's pictures.
Edited by shadyJ - 4/28/13 at 1:41am
post #67 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Whatever performance the PB12 might have has isn't pertinent, SVS traded output for a picture perfect frequency response and distortion profile, and it isn't a worthwhile trade when you have mini subs with more slam. My complaint isn't about the PB12s deep bass anyway, which is very good, it is about the mid bass. Yes, the Hsu has a lot of distortion below 30 hz in ME mode, however, like I said, that is mostly lower harmonic order distortion, and not that audible. And keep in mind the version Ilkka is testing is an old version of the mk3, even within the mk3 line there were system changes made. You can tell the difference because the old mk3s did not have a satin black finish, they have the rougher black finish like you see in Ilkka's pictures.

Well, what measurements would you like to provide then? You stated that there are measurements, but haven't linked to any. If not Ilkka's, then what?
post #68 of 138
I am saying you can use Ilkka's and Audioholic's measurements for the mk3 or Ricci's measurements for the LFM-1 EX for a rough idea of how the mk4 will perform. We will probably never know precisely how the mk4 performs unless somehow Josh Ricci gets his hands on one, which is unlikely to happen. However, I think it's a pretty safe bet that it is a better performer than these older versions of itself.
post #69 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I am saying you can use Ilkka's and Audioholic's measurements for the mk3 or Ricci's measurements for the LFM-1 EX for a rough idea of how the mk4 will perform. We will probably never know precisely how the mk4 performs unless somehow Josh Ricci gets his hands on one, which is unlikely to happen. However, I think it's a pretty safe bet that it is a better performer than these older versions of itself.

So its ok to take lfm-1 and mk3 measurements, to get a idea of how the mk4 will measure, but we can not use the sw-311 measurements to get an idea how the sw-115 will measure?? even when klipsch provides 1/8space 1m specs on both subs, ricci's results on the sw-311, and the proper conversion tables?
Edited by basshead81 - 4/28/13 at 6:09am
post #70 of 138
If you think a big ported 400 watt 15" is only going to be 3 dB louder at 30 hz than a small 500 watt 10" with a passive radiator, be my guest. I don't know how Klipsch is measuring that, but it doesn't make too much sense. I would want to see some more detailed measurements with a clearer understanding of how those measurements were obtained before I trusted them. All you have now is a single metric and no idea how it was made.
post #71 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I am saying you can use Ilkka's and Audioholic's measurements for the mk3 or Ricci's measurements for the LFM-1 EX for a rough idea of how the mk4 will perform. We will probably never know precisely how the mk4 performs unless somehow Josh Ricci gets his hands on one, which is unlikely to happen. However, I think it's a pretty safe bet that it is a better performer than these older versions of itself.

The EX has a different driver, enclosure design, and amp. So not helpful. And the best we can do in terms of guessing better performance of the VTF3.4 over the 3.3 is the advantage of the amplifier frequency response tuning features. Wishing something to be true is not the same thing as having measurements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

So its ok to take lfm-1 and mk3 measurements, to get a idea of how the mk4 will measure, but we can not use the sw-311 measurements to get an idea how the sw-115 will measure?? even when klipsch provides 1/8space 1m specs on both subs, ricci's results on the sw-311, and the proper conversion tables?

Didn't you know? It's only OK to play the "extrapolate the performance game" with HSU products wink.gif
post #72 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Didn't you know? It's only OK to play the "extrapolate the performance game" with HSU products wink.gif

LOL!
post #73 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The EX has a different driver, enclosure design, and amp. So not helpful. And the best we can do in terms of guessing better performance of the VTF3.4 over the 3.3 is the advantage of the amplifier frequency response tuning features. Wishing something to be true is not the same thing as having measurements.
The thread has been derailed badly enough as it is, so if, for whatever reason, you need to think that in lieu of measurements, subwoofers as similar as these must somehow perform radically different, feel free to, I won't try to convince you otherwise anymore. As owner of VTF3s and LFM-1 EXs, I understand how similar they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Didn't you know? It's only OK to play the "extrapolate the performance game" with HSU products wink.gif
This completely ignores the design similarities of the Hsu and Outlaw subs, and the big differences between the two Klipsch subs. You end up in the position of saying that the SW-311 and SW-115, despite their considerable design differences, are so close in performance based on a single measurement at a single frequency which isn't known how it was taken or by whom.
post #74 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

The thread has been derailed badly enough as it is, so if, for whatever reason, you need to think that in lieu of measurements, subwoofers as similar as these must somehow perform radically different, feel free to, I won't try to convince you otherwise anymore. As owner of VTF3s and LFM-1 EXs, I understand how similar they are.
This completely ignores the design similarities of the Hsu and Outlaw subs, and the big differences between the two Klipsch subs. You end up in the position of saying that the SW-311 and SW-115, despite their considerable design differences, are so close in performance based on a single measurement at a single frequency which isn't known how it was taken or by whom.

There are no design similarities between the HSU and Outlaw subs, other than both are big 12" ported subs. Different driver, different port configuration, different amp. Claims that Dr. Hsu was involved in the design of the early Outlaw subs doesn't add any evidence, either. Otherwise, we should just say that the BIC PL-200 (also designed by Dr. Hsu) is the same sub as the VTF-2 MK4.

And the point here was to show your double standards when it comes to HSU subs. You are quick to judge any extrapolation of measurements as unreliable when for whatever reason you don't like a sub, even though your recommendations of HSU subs are often based on speculation about performance that cannot be substantiated simply by owning them.
post #75 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I would want to see some more detailed measurements with a clearer understanding of how those measurements were obtained before I trusted them.

At the same time, just saying, we all know that open plane/anechoic chamber readings are only indicative of expected performance as when the rubber meets the road (in our living room), all bets are off and what we get in our Home Theater/living room listening venues is nothing like anechoic readings.
post #76 of 138
Lol, you can't be serious about the VTF3 having no design similarities with the LFM. I would invite others to compare their designs and decide for themselves on that count. Also, the measurements I am disputing, Klipsch's, have nothing to do with Hsu to begin with, you are the one who dragged that into this. And furthermore, I think my skepticism is warranted because Klipsch's measurements lead to a strange result when you consider the design differences between their own subs, I don't understand how you are missing this. Who knows, maybe Klipsch paints an accurate picture of their subs' respective capabilities, all I am saying is I would be surprised if that were actually the case.
post #77 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Lol, you can't be serious about the VTF3 having no design similarities with the LFM. I would invite others to compare their designs and decide for themselves on that count. Also, the measurements I am disputing, Klipsch's, have nothing to do with Hsu to begin with, you are the one who dragged that into this. And furthermore, I think my skepticism is warranted because Klipsch's measurements lead to a strange result when you consider the design differences between their own subs, I don't understand how you are missing this. Who knows, maybe Klipsch paints an accurate picture of their subs' respective capabilities, all I am saying is I would be surprised if that were actually the case.

What are the similarities? You keep saying this without any substantiation of the claim. Does anyone think that the driver is the same? They both have BASH amps, but no telling whether or not they are manufactured to the same specs, and obviously one of them is different because it has additional tuning options. We all know that posted amplifier ratings can be unreliable. The Outlaw enclosure is a downfiring design, with the ports and driver aimed down; the VTF-3 MK4 has ports aimed out the back with the driver facing the side. Based on posted specs, the exterior dimensions of the EX are 90% of the volume of the VTF-3.4, and yet the Outlaw is 5% heavier. Those are a LOT of variables to make claims that they should perform similarly, particularly given the impact that the different driver can have.

Now I happen to *think* that they are probably fairly similar, but that's just a guess. And just because you want it to be true so you can point to the Outlaw measurements at data-bass does not make it so.

As far as the SW-115, if Klipsch's ratings for it are as reliable as people have found the specs to be for the RW-12d (such as Archaea's measurements), dual SW-115s should have plenty of output for a 2600 cubic feet room. The important factor to consider here is not the max SPL--which you seem to be fixated on with the "more SPL is always better" approach (which is not true as a generalization)--but the SQ of the subs.
post #78 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

At the same time, just saying, we all know that open plane/anechoic chamber readings are only indicative of expected performance as when the rubber meets the road (in our living room), all bets are off and what we get in our Home Theater/living room listening venues is nothing like anechoic readings.

exactly! room gain determines the final output. prime example is my xv15's having good extension to the 14hz range when they tested around 21hz open plane. smile.gif Part of the reason I went with PSA, all the info is laid out so you know what to expect.
post #79 of 138
Thread Starter 
So I started thinking about sealed subs as an option. I may be able to get them in each corner since they are smaller. I've always preferred a sealed sub since it's smoother but I had only looked at ported subs due to them only being used for movies. So here are the sealed versions of the subs I'm looking at, what do you think? Opinions?

SVS dual SB12-NSD or dual PB12-NSD
PSA dual XS15 or dual XV15

The PSA XS15 seams to still reach very low but is a little smaller box. If I can place a sealed sub in the corner compared to a ported sub along the front wall would that even them out a little? I've also heard some very good reviews of the NHT b-12D sealed sub. Does anyone know how this will compare to the SVS or PSA subs? Thanks. smile.gif
post #80 of 138
Thread Starter 
Well the only sealed sub that seems to be in the running is the PSA XS15. Two of those would be great from speaking to PSA. So I've been playing around with speaker placement of my towers to see what I can fit in the corners. So what may be the best alternative here? After speaking to SVS & PSA these would all work well in my TR & at the levels I turn up my receiver to around -15 dB on the volume.

Corner options....
1. SVS Dual PB1000 in each corner
2. SVS Dual PC12-NSD in each corner
3. PSA Dual XS15 in each corner

Non-corner option....
4. PSA Dual XV15 with one placed between each tower & the center channel.

Thanks!
post #81 of 138
Thread Starter 
Well after much debate I finally ordered 2 PSA XS15 subs yesterday. Tom at PSA was a huge help in every way. Thanks to Tom and everyone else that helped me find my way!
post #82 of 138
whew finally...I was starting to worry about ya! Congrats, you will be glad you went with those subs!!

Lol @ the fact you went with a sub that was not on your initial poll! Don't worry I did the same thing...that's whats nice about the avs forums, the members here will talk some sense into ya one way or another!! biggrin.gif
post #83 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

whew finally...I was starting to worry about ya! Congrats, you will be glad you went with those subs!!

Lol @ the fact you went with a sub that was not on your initial poll! Don't worry I did the same thing...that's whats nice about the avs forums, the members here will talk some sense into ya one way or another!! biggrin.gif

And that's why I asked! Heck when I first was looking I hadn't even heard of PSA. I'm sure that I'll be a huge fan after receiving them. biggrin.gif The biggest change was at first I was thinking of trying to keep it around $1000 or less, so much for that! rolleyes.gif
post #84 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post

And that's why I asked! Heck when I first was looking I hadn't even heard of PSA. I'm sure that I'll be a huge fan after receiving them. biggrin.gif The biggest change was at first I was thinking of trying to keep it around $1000 or less, so much for that! rolleyes.gif

same here!
post #85 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cutter View Post

And that's why I asked! Heck when I first was looking I hadn't even heard of PSA. I'm sure that I'll be a huge fan after receiving them. biggrin.gif The biggest change was at first I was thinking of trying to keep it around $1000 or less, so much for that! rolleyes.gif

It always starts out like that. I thought when I bought my XS30's that $2500 was all I'd ever spend on subs. Now I'm considering ordering another two XS30's to have two stack in each corner of my front wall! eek.gif
post #86 of 138
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

It always starts out like that. I thought when I bought my XS30's that $2500 was all I'd ever spend on subs. Now I'm considering ordering another two XS30's to have two stack in each corner of my front wall! eek.gif

That would be unreal! I've been very happy with my single Energy S12.3 sub in my family room & small theater room with no desire to upgrade them over the past 6 years so I'm sure I'll be blown away by dual 15" monsters! biggrin.gif
post #87 of 138
Yeah I'm trying to decide between that or maybe something else from PSA wink.gif
post #88 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Yeah I'm trying to decide between that or maybe something else from PSA wink.gif

dont be holding out...please share this something else!
post #89 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

dont be holding out...please share this something else!

Haha, I just saying "if" PSA brings something new out I'll replace my XS30's with two of them wink.gif
post #90 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Haha, I just saying "if" PSA brings something new out I'll replace my XS30's with two of them wink.gif

You just need to move on to the big league next biggrin.gif

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/
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