or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Need subwwofer upgrade advice
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Need subwwofer upgrade advice

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
I am currently using Klipsch RW-12D subwoofer for both watching movie (75%) and listening to music (25%).

My current setup is:
Sony XBR-55HX929 TV
Oppo BDP-93 Blu-ray player
Denon AVR-3311CI AV receiver
Klipsch RF-52 II (front)
Klipsch RC-52 II (center)
Klipsch RB-51 II (surround)
Klipsch RW-12D subwoofer

My house has 2 stories. My living room on the first floor and is 16.5' (W) x 13.5' (L) x 9' (H), i.e. about 2000 cu-ft. It is carpeted with concrete foundation. The TV is on the 16.5' side. There are walls on 3 sides and the remaining side is an entry way that leads to the dining room, kitchen, and stairway to the second floor. I have attached some pictures of the current setup and floorplan.





The RW-12D used to be at the corner next to the front left speaker and it performed the same as the current location. Since it was blocking the closet door at the corner, I moved it to the current location.

Given this, do I need to count the space on the whole first floor? If so, there are close to 5000 cu-ft total for the first floor.

I'd like a subwoofer that has more bass extension that the RW-12D and is almost the same size as the RW-12D. Due to WAF and size limitation, I am looking for a single subwoofer solution and have ruled out the following: HSU VTF-3 MK4 and VTF-15H and any Outlaw and PSA subwoofers.

My short list includes the following subwoofers now:
SVS PB-1000 (not sure whether this is load enough for my space?)
SVS PB12-NSD
HSU ULS-15
Rythmik LV12R
Rythmik E15

Do I need to get a ported subwoofer for my space? Currently, I am leaning towards the HSU ULS-15 or Rythmik E15.

Please let me know your opinions. Thanks for your help.

Edited: Changed size to almost same as the RW-12D. Smaller size is not realistic.
Edited by wsxcde - 4/22/13 at 2:36pm
post #2 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsxcde View Post

Please let me know your opinions.

Basically, based on your above, you've self-limited yourself out of a worthy upgrade.
post #3 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Basically, based on your above, you've self-limited yourself out of a worthy upgrade.

I see what you mean. I am wondering whether I should bother with the upgrade due to the size limitation and WAF also. Anyway, life is not perfect. I'd still like to hear any feedback about whether the subwoofers in my short list will offer any improvement.
post #4 of 27
Quote:
... there are close to 5000 cu-ft total for the first floor.

I'd like a subwoofer that has more bass extension that the RW-12D and is smaller than or almost the same size as the RW-12D. Due to WAF and size limitation, I am looking for a single subwoofer solution ...
Unless you go nearfield (sub next to sofa), any of the subs on your list will have a hard time with that large a space and the fact that you're on a concrete slab (so you can't even benefit from "floor effect" - that is, vibration transmitted through floor joists).

Not sure what your budget is, but I think you're looking at a minimum of:
- a PSA XS30 ($1,149, shipped)
  • dual 15" drivers
  • 725W RMS amp
  • 19-200Hz +/-3dB
  • 23.5" (d) x 18" (w) x 22.5” (h)
- an SVS SB13-Ultra ($1,599, shipped):
  • 13.5" driver
  • 1000W RMS amp
  • 20-460Hz +/-3dB
  • 17.4" x 17.4" x 17.4"

Edited by eljaycanuck - 4/22/13 at 2:47pm
post #5 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

you can't even benefit from "floor effect" - that is, vibration transmitted through floor joists.
That's a new one on me, and that probably places it in the myth category. A 'soft' floor may resonate, but that will only occur at one frequency, and it doesn't add to the SPL inside the room other than possibly at that single frequency. Since a concrete floor won't flex it contains energy, rather than allowing it to pass through.
In any event that is a lot of area, and if the intent is to pressurize the space to Man Cave levels a pair of 15 loaded subs would be required. OTOH if you're content with bass that won't have the female occupant complaining 'that's too loud' I'd leave it as it is. You say that you want to go both smaller and lower, and that places you squarely at odds with the physics of how speakers work. If you go both smaller and lower you'll have to give up loudness to do it. However, you can go both lower and louder by moving the sub to the corner on the other side of the TV, and face it into the corner, not out.

Besides, the first thing I'd upgrade is the screen size.
post #6 of 27
Quote:
That's a new one on me and that probably places it in the myth category.
Place it in whatever category you like. smile.gif
Quote:
... it doesn't add to the SPL inside the room ...
I didn't say it did.
Edited by eljaycanuck - 4/22/13 at 5:40pm
post #7 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That's a new one on me, and that probably places it in the myth category. A 'soft' floor may resonate, but that will only occur at one frequency, and it doesn't add to the SPL inside the room other than possibly at that single frequency. Since a concrete floor won't flex it contains energy, rather than allowing it to pass through.
In any event that is a lot of area, and if the intent is to pressurize the space to Man Cave levels a pair of 15 loaded subs would be required. OTOH if you're content with bass that won't have the female occupant complaining 'that's too loud' I'd leave it as it is. You say that you want to go both smaller and lower, and that places you squarely at odds with the physics of how speakers work. If you go both smaller and lower you'll have to give up loudness to do it. However, you can go both lower and louder by moving the sub to the corner on the other side of the TV, and face it into the corner, not out.

Besides, the first thing I'd upgrade is the screen size.

The RW-12D used to be at the corner next to the front left speaker and it performed the same as the current location. Since it was blocking the closet door at the corner, I moved it to the current location.

Yes, getting a subwoofer smaller than the RW-12D is not realistic to get the bass extension I want. But I can't get anything as large as the HSU VTF-3 MK4 or VTF-15H.
post #8 of 27
Add a Premiere Acoustic PA 150 and you will be happy. You need multiple subs for that room.
post #9 of 27
How about a coffee table sub?
post #10 of 27
Sounds like your best candidates are the Rythmik E15, SVS SB13-Ultra (one currently in their outlet store for $1,399 but has some damage - you be the judge) or the Chase Home Theater SS-18.1 with external amp.

As your biggest issues are size and WAF, perhaps contact Tom at Power Sound and see what he can suggest as good alternatives for your situation, even though it won't be one of their subs.
post #11 of 27
i would go with the xs30 from psa. its not that big for a dual driver 15" sub and will give you ALOT more output!

PSA XS30- 23 x 18 x 22.5" (d,w,h)

Klipsch RW12-D- 19.2 x 14.6 x 21"
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Place it in whatever category you like. smile.gif
I didn't say it did.
You said "so you can't even benefit from "floor effect" , which implied that 'floor effect' does something positive.

OP, is there room for a second sub in the corner behind the recliner? That would help a lot and looks to be out of the way.
post #13 of 27
Quote:
You said "so you can't even benefit from "floor effect" , which implied that 'floor effect' does something positive.
What I said was 'so you can't even benefit from "floor effect" - that is, vibration transmitted through floor joists'. No mention of SPL.

I've used the term "floor effect" 15 other times on this site, always to describe a tactile sensation. I have never stated, suggested or implied that it adds SPL.
Edited by eljaycanuck - 4/23/13 at 4:49am
post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

What I said was 'so you can't even benefit from "floor effect" - that is, vibration transmitted through floor joists'. No mention of SPL.

I've used the term "floor effect" 15 other times on this site, always to describe a tactile sensation. I have never stated, suggested or implied that it adds SPL.

thats what i thought you wer saying as well. the floor effect is similar to a tactile transducer due to the added vibration which makes the bass "feel" louder.
post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

thats what i thought you wer saying as well. the floor effect is similar to a tactile transducer due to the added vibration which makes the bass "feel" louder.
For a floor to vibrate that much it would have to be very poorly constructed, so poorly that even walking across it would cause it to flex and bounce. An average wall will resonate far more than any floor, as will a ceiling, since walls are built with 2x4 or 2x6 studs, and ceilings with perhaps 2x6 joists, while even the softest floor would use 2x8 joists.
Quote:
I've used the term "floor effect" 15 other times on this site, always to describe a tactile sensation.
Like I said, myth. Unless, of course, you have measured data to support your hypothesis. I guess with sufficient levels you might get some sort of sensation as you describe it, but unless it's a floor that would never pass a structural inspection those levels would have to be crazy high,.
post #16 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

For a floor to vibrate that much it would have to be very poorly constructed, so poorly that even walking across it would cause it to flex and bounce. An average wall will resonate far more than any floor, as will a ceiling, since walls are built with 2x4 or 2x6 studs, and ceilings with perhaps 2x6 joists, while even the softest floor would use 2x8 joists.
Like I said, myth. Unless, of course, you have measured data to support your hypothesis. I guess with sufficient levels you might get some sort of sensation as you describe it, but unless it's a floor that would never pass a structural inspection those levels would have to be crazy high,.

sir, i respect your opinion but the bottom line is you do get a floor effect. at my old house with 2x10 constructed floors, one custom 15 shook the floor and created exactly what eljaycanuck is saying. wood transmits vibration far easier than concrete. I have also experienced this in bars that have bassments underneath them opposed to solid concrete slab...messured data is not going to prove anything, were not saying it adds volume or spl, it adds feeling or sensation that there is more bass...why do you think folks add shakers to systems? Bass sounds louder when you can feel it even tho its not!
Edited by basshead81 - 4/23/13 at 7:15am
post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsxcde View Post

I see what you mean. I am wondering whether I should bother with the upgrade due to the size limitation and WAF also. Anyway, life is not perfect. I'd still like to hear any feedback about whether the subwoofers in my short list will offer any improvement.

Based on your provided pictures, I'd go with this little gem from SVS. It looks like it would fit right in where your current subwoofer is located or better yet, in the back left corner by the torch lamp, behind the recliner/ottoman combination.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 4/23/13 at 7:55am
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Like I said, myth.
And like I said, call it whatever you like.
Edited by eljaycanuck - 4/23/13 at 8:05am
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

..messured data is not going to prove anything!
As a matter of fact, it's the only thing that does. Everything else is just a subjective observation that may or may not lead to correct assumptions. For instance, much of what you feel in bars is the result of the bass going through the floor and resonating in the room below, with that energy in turn causing the floor to vibrate. What frequency it vibrates at is related as much to the size of the room below as anything else, exactly the same as the frequency that a drum head vibrates at is related to the volume of the drum shell. In the large space of a typical bar floor resonance can be a major factor in the low end. In a typical house both the area of the floors and the volume of the rooms below them tend to keep floor resonance frequencies above the subwoofer band width.
BTW, the transmission of sound is directly related to the speed of sound within the transmission medium. In that respect concrete transmits sound far more effectively than wood.
Quote:
why do you think folks add shakers to systems?
Because the floor doesn't vibrate enough to provide the sensation that shakers do.
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

As a matter of fact, it's the only thing that does. Everything else is just a subjective observation that may or may not lead to correct assumptions. For instance, much of what you feel in bars is the result of the bass going through the floor and resonating in the room below, with that energy in turn causing the floor to vibrate. What frequency it vibrates at is related as much to the size of the room below as anything else, exactly the same as the frequency that a drum head vibrates at is related to the volume of the drum shell. In the large space of a typical bar floor resonance can be a major factor in the low end. In a typical house both the area of the floors and the volume of the rooms below them tend to keep floor resonance frequencies above the subwoofer band width.
BTW, the transmission of sound is directly related to the speed of sound within the transmission medium. In that respect concrete transmits sound far more effectively than wood.
Because the floor doesn't vibrate enough to provide the sensation that shakers do.

ok i should of clarified that my old house had a full basement underneath it as well, so thats probably the difference.
post #21 of 27
Same here: Full basement below my ~1,000 sq.ft. main floor.

When my PB10-NSD was on the main floor, I could feel it at the listening position. Took the sub downstairs, feeling all gone. Turn up the volume high enough and pressurization kicked in, but the tactile sensation was still missing. Same thing with the much smaller and less-potent Energy S10.3: Feel it on the main floor; don't feel it in the basement.

Hence my comment to the OP: Had his HT space been on a suspended floor, he might have benefitted from what I (and, AFAIK, no-one else) call "floor effect". Since his HT space is on concrete, the point is moot.

And, anyway, "floor effect" is just a myth. smile.gif
Edited by eljaycanuck - 4/23/13 at 8:31am
post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post


And, anyway, "floor effect" is just a myth. smile.gif
+1. And that's why you don't find that term used. Using the same subjective criteria you did one could assume that the overly loud sub in a passing car is playing only one note. From outside the car that's true, because you're not hearing the sub, you're hearing the resonant frequency of the car body, vibrating in response to the pressure created by the sub. Inside the car you hear all of the notes. Nothing about the sub changed, only the perspective of the listener.
That by no means doesn't say that you didn't feel what you felt. It just means that without quantifying data to go along with the subjective results one cannot be sure exactly why you felt it. In the scientific realm you don't get to name a phenomena until you prove its existence.
Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice - 4/23/13 at 10:10am
post #23 of 27
Quote:
And that's why you don't find that term used.
The reason you don't find that term used is because it's not a generally-accepted term. It's just a term I coined to describe a tactile sensation I experienced.
Quote:
That by no means doesn't say that you didn't feel what you felt.
I'm surprised you're willing to grant me even that much, but I'll take it. wink.gif
Quote:
In the scientific realm you don't get to name a phenomena until you prove its existence.
I experienced a tactile sensation. I called it "floor effect" (with quotations marks) and when I used the term I explained what I meant by it. It's a subjective term, not a scientific term.

If there's a proper scientific term to describe what I call "floor effect" - the mechanism by which one is able to feel the bass from a subwoofer used on a suspended floor (a tactile sensation which is lost when the subwoofer is used on a concrete floor) - please let me know and I will gladly use that correct term instead. I promise. smile.gif

That said, I will stop using the term "floor effect" in order to avoid any further discord in this sub-forum. cool.gif
Edited by eljaycanuck - 4/23/13 at 3:09pm
post #24 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

If there's a proper scientific term to describe what I call "floor effect" - the mechanism by which one is able to feel the bass from a subwoofer used on a suspended floor (a tactile sensation which is lost when the subwoofer is used on a concrete floor) - please let me know and I will gladly use that correct term instead. I promise. smile.gif
There isn't any term because it doesn't exist. Like most laymen you're trying to find a mechanical reason to explain an acoustical result. That's understandable, because it's not easy to visualize the effects of invisible sound waves versus visible objects, like a floor. In your particular case the difference between the two scenarios wasn't so much the effect of a wood floor versus concrete as it was what was below those floors, a large chamber versus the ground. A large chamber will support resonance, the ground won't. The room below a wood floor would act just like the aforementioned drum shell, with the floor above it acting like a drum head. You could literally tune the response in the room above by changing the volume of the room below by filling it with dirt. With enough dirt the room response with the wood floor would be similar to the concrete basement floor.
post #25 of 27
Quote:
There isn't any term because it doesn't exist.
And because a term doesn't exist to describe a certain experience, one is not permitted to coin a term and to use it - in quotation marks and with an explanation - to describe that experience. Interesting.
Quote:
In your particular case the difference between the two scenarios wasn't so much the effect of a wood floor versus concrete as it was what was below those floors, a large chamber versus the ground. A large chamber will support resonance, the ground won't.
Hmmm..."large chamber resonance". I like it! smile.gif (I know, I know - it's not a real term, so it's just a myth. wink.gif )

Anyway, like I said, I won't use the term again.

OP, please pretend I never said it. And best of luck with your quest and your purchase. smile.gif
Edited by eljaycanuck - 4/23/13 at 4:39pm
post #26 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanglo View Post

How about a coffee table sub?

(to the OP) I studied your pics. Mr. Spanglo's suggestion seems like a good one, and the WAF should go up dramatically, as even I don't like the looks of the sub where you currently have it. tongue.gif

What do you think of the idea of trying the sub in the left/rear listening position, where the lamp is? Maybe move the Klipsch back there on a temporary basis to see if you like the sound, and if you want to make it permanent, use a wireless connector or run the cabling under the floor.

Mr. B-man's suggestion (further upstream) of the space saving round SVS sub looked like a good option as well. He also suggested placing the sub behind the ottoman.



Comments on questions nobody asked: I really like the clean look of the wall behind your TV. I am not a fan of visual clutter, so I would think the lack of flowers, pictures etc should add to the viewing experience. The center console and the speakers look just fine to me and blend nicely with the TV as the centerpiece.

Question: How do you like those Klipsch fronts? What do they do best, ie highs, mids, loud, clear, etc.?
post #27 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

(to the OP) I studied your pics. Mr. Spanglo's suggestion seems like a good one, and the WAF should go up dramatically, as even I don't like the looks of the sub where you currently have it. tongue.gif

What do you think of the idea of trying the sub in the left/rear listening position, where the lamp is? Maybe move the Klipsch back there on a temporary basis to see if you like the sound, and if you want to make it permanent, use a wireless connector or run the cabling under the floor.

Mr. B-man's suggestion (further upstream) of the space saving round SVS sub looked like a good option as well. He also suggested placing the sub behind the ottoman.



Comments on questions nobody asked: I really like the clean look of the wall behind your TV. I am not a fan of visual clutter, so I would think the lack of flowers, pictures etc should add to the viewing experience. The center console and the speakers look just fine to me and blend nicely with the TV as the centerpiece.

Question: How do you like those Klipsch fronts? What do they do best, ie highs, mids, loud, clear, etc.?

The Klipsch RF52 sounds clear and have good mid bass since they are floorstanding speakers. I bought them because I got a pretty good package deal a couple of years ago.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Need subwwofer upgrade advice