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F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 56

post #1651 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Wow just wow

Yeah chunon, 'wow just wow'. A very informative post.

As this thread goes spiraling down. rolleyes.gif
post #1652 of 3096
You refuse to acknowledge even the slightest flaw with the 8500 no one is saying it isn't a great set

I see you have those cyan colored glasses on again
post #1653 of 3096
Say what? What the hell do you want me to say? Would you love for me to lie and say 'yes, I have a horrific case of floating blacks...they just destroy my viewing pleasure'.

Are you for real? Geesh, I report what I see. Read the 8500 threads and see if owners are complaining. Get a grip man, get a grip. I won't lie to satisfy whatever need you have to acknowledge a 'flaw' I and other owners don't see.

I read this stuff and just shake my head.

Edit: Here's some red meat for you Chunon, some 8500's buzz to a degree that bothers the owner. That's a real issue, that's an issue reported by more than 1 or 2 people. Happy?

I see you have those Panny colored glasses on. rolleyes.gif

As for cyan, must I remind you AGAIN who first reported it with THEIR unit. Reminder, it was ME. I report what I see chunon, I DO NOT LIE.
post #1654 of 3096
You had a former owner just weigh in and you disregarded his experience because it doesn't match yours
post #1655 of 3096
I don't have a stake in this one way or the other but if buzz says the blacks float I believe him

I happen to the to think the 8500 is a great set but it has floating blacks which may or not be visible
post #1656 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

You had a former owner just weigh in and you disregarded his experience because it doesn't match yours

ONE ONWER. Let me repeat that ONE OWNER. Does that condemn the entire line. And, I did NOT disregard his experience. I presented possibilities as to why his experience is so radically different than every other owner's. But YOU disregard that.

I find it fascinating that you would much prefer siding with the one observation that speaks to floating blacks, but you will totally discard every other owner's observation who doesn't report it. You'll also discard the professional reviews AND the shootout where I heard nobody pointing this out during actual dark material presentations. rolleyes.gif

And please please, don't present yourself as 'objective'.

Ba bye chunon.
post #1657 of 3096
I'm not siding with anyone but when that observation is backed up by owner reports and hard calibration data I tend to see it for what it is
post #1658 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I'm not siding with anyone but when that observation is backed up by owner reports and hard calibration data I tend to see it for what it is

One former owner. No current owners. No professional reviews. Nobody at the shootout saying 'wow, look at those FBs on the 8500'.

Yeah chunon, throw em all out and hang on that one observation that floats your boat. But you don't side with anyone. biggrin.gif

Enough of this.
post #1659 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

One former owner. No current owners. No professional reviews. Nobody at the shootout saying 'wow, look at those FBs on the 8500'.

Yeah you're objective rolleyes.gif
post #1660 of 3096
Everytime if you are not with Ken...you're not objective...JAJAJA
post #1661 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Since we have no owners that can see it, I'll favor many many pairs of eyes over what the meters say. There are times a measurement can be made, but the measured value rarely seen. That's just a fact.

IOW, if it's there and virtually nobody can see it, then I tend to not get overly concerned.

Likewise, if we have something that no calibrator checks for and therefore never measures (fan noise), but many experience, then I'd get more concerned.

Ken - that seems to be a cheap shot in the middle of one of the more civil exchanges on this thread in a long time by a knowledgeable group of A/V members. It seems the buzzing of the 8500 is as much of an issue as fan noise for VT/ZT owners. Not your typical post.
post #1662 of 3096
Since this is a F8500 or ZT60 thread, it seems appropriate to point out certain strengths and weaknesses of Sammys vs. Pannys. I appreciate that you cannot see FB on your F8500 Ken, but it has been an issue for Samsung in the past, and some, at least one, say its an issue on the F8500. I own a Sammy D8000 plasma, and it did concern me when deciding my latest purchase. Whether you can see it or not, it still needs to be mentioned for potential F8500 owners. Just like you see fit to mention the aggressive ABL on the Pannys.
post #1663 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Since we have no owners that can see it, I'll favor many many pairs of eyes over what the meters say. There are times a measurement can be made, but the measured value rarely seen. That's just a fact.

IOW, if it's there and virtually nobody can see it, then I tend to not get overly concerned.

Likewise, if we have something that no calibrator checks for and therefore never measures (fan noise), but many experience, then I'd get more concerned.

Ken - that seems to be a cheap shot in the middle of one of the more civil exchanges on this thread in a long time by a knowledgeable group of A/V members. It seems the buzzing of the 8500 is as much of an issue as fan noise for VT/ZT owners. Not your typical post.

I mentioned the fan noise on the VT/ZT not to take a cheap shot at the Pannys, but to point out how an issue like this bothers some owners, but doesn't bother many other VT/ZT owners. Again, the comparison is very fair. Some would like to condemn an entire line of a product as the result of the complaints of some...or in some cases, the complaints of one.

I specifically mentioned buzzing on the 8500 because it IS an issue for some 8500 owners. I didn't put FBs in the same bucket because only one former owner made a significant issue out of it while no other owner, pro review or attendee at the shootout did. I think that is entirely reasonable and very fair.

If we don't take a reasoned approach to the review of virtually any electronics product ever made, we will wind up condemning each and every product ever made. There will always be complaints from some on every display. The balanced approach is to look at how many complaints there are. Do these complaints center around one flaw? Is it common, is it few and far between, is it just one complaint regarding the one flaw in question?

That's how I research things I'm not familiar with. There will always be the outliers in any set of reviews. When you see one reviewer after another commenting on the same flaw, you know there is an issue.
post #1664 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by defjamz View Post

Since this is a F8500 or ZT60 thread, it seems appropriate to point out certain strengths and weaknesses of Sammys vs. Pannys. I appreciate that you cannot see FB on your F8500 Ken, but it has been an issue for Samsung in the past, and some, at least one, say its an issue on the F8500. I own a Sammy D8000 plasma, and it did concern me when deciding my latest purchase. Whether you can see it or not, it still needs to be mentioned for potential F8500 owners. Just like you see fit to mention the aggressive ABL on the Pannys.

Well that's my point. If we make a list of every display and then tick off each and every complaint that's ever been posted regarding that display, the list will be utterly endless on every single display. If you think that's a wise approach, we'll agree to disagree. I prefer to highlight those flaws that appear to be common to many owners of the product, not related to user error and not related to a defective sample. It's those flaws that I would point out to potential owners 'buyers beware'.
post #1665 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

David has had very different observations than any owner I know of. It has been conjectured by other 8500 owners that David either had poor settings or something wrong with his 8500. I have a very discerning eye as anyone that's followed my posts over the years knows. I know what FBs look like and I simply do not have them. At the shootout I heard not one single person mention or observe these horrific FBs. One would certainly think that the 8500 would not have won the title had the problem that David observed been typical of all 8500s.

I respect David and we have traded many PMs prior to his purchase. The fact that David's observations are so dramatically different than any other owner (or professional 8500 review that I can recall, for that matter) leads one to come to 1 of 2 conclusions that I can think of: 1) All 8500 owners posting on AVS have very undiscerning eyes and have no idea what a floating black looks like or 2) David's unit either was not properly adjusted or was defective.

I'm pretty sure I know which posters here believe 1 and which believe 2. More importantly, I don't think many 8500 owners really care that much. smile.gif

In fact, using this same logic and scanning the ZT/VT threads, one can come to the conclusion, based on owner's complaints that a) the ZT/VT produce a soft picture b) the ZT/VT have insufficient brightness c) the ZT/VT suffer from fan noise. So does one assume that if one individual sees these issues that then the entire line is condemned? If so, I would heartily recommend all refrain from buying a ZT/VT based on their soft & dim picture to say nothing of the noise the fans produce. I would also recommend that all 8500 owners return their units because of the wildly fluctuating blacks.

C'mon guys, this can get to be more than a bit silly.

Hi Ken,

Zoyd's and Buzz's data clearly points out what I had been seeing. I do not believe my set was defective, nor were any settings off. I am well versed in understanding the settings and how to calibrate basic settings such as brightness.

I have also talked to two other calibrators who saw them, as well.

D-Nice mentioned at the Shootout that floating blacks were an issue he was seeing, as well. He referred to it regarding the Dark Night Rises clip.

They do exist; whether one sees them or not is a completely different manner.

In addition - another fact - the blacks were rising with Cinema Smooth On.
post #1666 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

One former owner. No current owners. No professional reviews. Nobody at the shootout saying 'wow, look at those FBs on the 8500'.

Yeah chunon, throw em all out and hang on that one observation that floats your boat. But you don't side with anyone. biggrin.gif

Enough of this.


Chad's review mentions floating blacks: "Black level measured .0069 fL with Black optimizer off and a 1080P/60 source. With the Black optimizer set to Dark room or Auto, it measured .0025 fL. With 1080P/24 and cinema smooth on, black level was .0072/.0025 fL, which is not significantly different. With Black Optimizer set to either auto or Dark room, Movie mode's modified ANSI contrast ratio was 7436:1, at 34.95/.0047 fL. That was further evidence of some black level floating, as the black level on a dark screen was significantly lower than black level of the checkerboard. Because of this fluctuating black level in the Dark room setting, I made the decision to do the calibration in Movie mode with the Black optimizer off. As calibrated, with Black optimizer off, the modified ANSI contrast ratio measured 6034:1, at 38.62/.0064 fL."

Also found this review:http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news/article/samsung-ps64f8500-review/15092/-

"The £3,000 PS64F8500 isn’t quite perfect. Its picture presets are ill-judged, for starters, with all of the TV’s presets bar 'Movie' pushing sharpness so hard images look fizzy and gritty. Floating blacks are sporadically apparent too, as the set adjusts the picture’s brightness and black level ‘tone’ so aggressively you’re distracted by the shift. This still happens even if you deactivate the set’s adaptive contrast setting."

So by my count that is 2 calibrators, 1 professional review and one owner
post #1667 of 3096
post #1668 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Read what I wrote again. The fact that a meter can measure something, doesn't mean it's obvious, let alone can be seen. :-)

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

I tend to agree with this. actually been messing around a lot with settings that I had 'incorrect' on my projector for a couple weeks and finally conceded the theory isn't as important as the experimentation.

but for purposes of helping others, I think it's important to make the distinction between what you see, what can be seen, and what is displayed.

ie, a statement like, calibrators are still measuring floating blacks, but most owners are reporting that they do not see anything while viewing content. I have looked for it, and I can not see floating blacks on my set.

on a side note, this and the other f8500/vt60/zt60 threads have pointed out a lot of things I've never noticed before, haha. I still don't mind/notice floating blacks, as long as they get darker when the image gets darker i'd almost say that's an advantage(since the alternative would be maintaining a steady, but higher black level), i'd never heard of ABL before, never noticed it before, and because of these threads I've seen it more on the f8500 than any other display(because I never looked for it before).

it's nice to get all the info you can to make an informed decision. but it's not always a good thing to get caught up with the stuff you never thought to look for. at this level of display, none of these 'issues' are going to be noticeable to ppl not watching critically for them, or sensitive to them. so it's important to keep these complaints in perspective for what they really are.
post #1669 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I still don't mind/notice floating blacks, as long as they get darker when the image gets darker i'd almost say that's an advantage(since the alternative would be maintaining a steady, but higher black level), i'd never heard of ABL before, never noticed it before, and because of these threads I've seen it more on the f8500 than any other display(because I never looked for it before).

Trust me, floating blacks are no advantage at all and can drive on nutty once they see them. What you describe is not exactly what happens with them.
post #1670 of 3096
This youtube clip shows the 8500 pulsating but not the 8000 LED. I have read that that is how the brightness is achieved in the 8500. This youtube clip is a Samsung dealer meeting putting the 8500 and 8000 side by side. For me to view the 8500 before purchase is very inconvenient. I was going to make my decision based on my research on this forum for an internet purchase. The panasonics are just to dim and reflective for my environment. I was very interested in the Pan VT but saw it in person, not going to work. This Pan ZT Best Buy exclusive has made the ZT too cost prohibitive and i fear will not be bright enough. THis set is also too far away for me to see before purchase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QkNXZctqIk

What to do?
post #1671 of 3096
Can someone please post a video of this so called "floating blacks?" Especially the individuals that are claiming that this issue is driving them crazy.

I am still split between ZT60 and F8500. A video will definitely help me (and others) finalize their decision.

Thanks in advance!
post #1672 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Trust me, floating blacks are no advantage at all and can drive on nutty once they see them. What you describe is not exactly what happens with them.

the worst 'floating blacks' I've ever seen, at least as I understand them, were on my old CRT RPTV. a tv that to this day has not been beaten in overall PQ imo. by the numbers it's been destroyed by most, but based on viewing experience it got darker with more realistic shadow detail than any plasma I've ever seen. I had that tv for probably 4yrs before I read up on plasmas and read one of the advantages being the impressive ansi contrast, and how that was going to make the tv so much better. so I bit, got myself a plasma and it was horrible in comparison. so did some more reading on what the heck ansi actually was. discovered the complaint with the CRT was the rising blacks when the picture got brighter. well what do you know, 4yrs of use later, after having it pointed out to me, I noticed how bright the 'black' bars were when the screen got bright. it's been another 5 yrs since then, I can honestly say i'll take floating blacks like the CRT had over the 'superior' ansi contrast I had with that first plasma.

if that's not what floating blacks are(blacks that get brighter with higher APL images) then just carry on, I have no idea what you're talking about and can't see that happening on any of my TV's, including the f8500.

I did actually 'notice' it once watching an old 4:3 movie. I've checked with the same movie after one of the updates and it was gone. what was happening looked like a sudden shift in brightness specifically in the black bars on the side of the image. when the screen got bright, the bars 'popped' to a brighter 'black'. I would say behaviour like that, that suddenly changes, would be distracting and not a good thing. the 'floating' I saw with the crt was gradual and not jarring, so I never noticed it. but I did notice how dark it got when the whole scene was dark. biggrin.gif

but again, the point was that the information should be presented without judgement. state that it's present or not, and follow that up with your personal opinion/observation as a separate thought on the subject. if I chose to wait 6weeks and spend the extra 800 bux to get a zt instead of my f8500 based on somebody saying the floating blacks made the image unwatchable i'd be extremely upset. I've seen the zt in stores, and while good, I didn't see it being anything special over the vt, and I definitely preferred the f8500 over the vt.
post #1673 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgiorgio View Post

This youtube clip shows the 8500 pulsating but not the 8000 LED. I have read that that is how the brightness is achieved in the 8500. This youtube clip is a Samsung dealer meeting putting the 8500 and 8000 side by side. For me to view the 8500 before purchase is very inconvenient. I was going to make my decision based on my research on this forum for an internet purchase. The panasonics are just to dim and reflective for my environment. I was very interested in the Pan VT but saw it in person, not going to work. This Pan ZT Best Buy exclusive has made the ZT too cost prohibitive and i fear will not be bright enough. THis set is also too far away for me to see before purchase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QkNXZctqIk

What to do?

is that not just what all plasmas do? not sure if you're talking about something specific in the middle of that vid, i'm not watching 15mins to see the 20sec clip you meant, but even at the start you can clearly see all the plasmas 'pulsate' while the sony led beside appears rock solid.

is viewing the tv more inconvenient than returning it? i'd make the effort if it were me. I spent about 4hrs in 3 different stores and I already had it narrowed down to the f8500 or vt/zt. I would have spent even more if I waited to see the zt.
post #1674 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanes View Post

Can someone please post a video of this so called "floating blacks?" Especially the individuals that are claiming that this issue is driving them crazy.

I am still split between ZT60 and F8500. A video will definitely help me (and others) finalize their decision.

Thanks in advance!

I don't think a video would show it. the camera iris or whatever would probably influence the image too much to notice the relatively smaller change in blacks. I could be wrong though, or maybe somebody could show a video that simulates or represents what is happening. usually the only way I can see floating blacks is by covering the picture with my hand so I can only see the black letter box bars
post #1675 of 3096
OK, I am with Phanes. I have no idea what these floating blacks are that these senior members are talking about. I would like to see an example as well. Since that may not be possible, can someone describe what it is, and when/what content it is most likely to be seen? For example, is it two discernible shades of black in a letterbox? I am trying to decide between the F8500 and the ZT60 as well. This discussion has been very helpful most of the time, especially examples such as David's side-by-side comparison. I continue to learn so much reading this forum, but at times things can spiral away from noobs such as myself who are trying to decide between these two excellent sets.
post #1676 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Sounds like you didn't have the proper motion settings dialed in.
Could you please elaborate or give me the link where the settings are explained?
post #1677 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butters_ View Post

Could you please elaborate or give me the link where the settings are explained?
I have ZT, and I cannot watch anything with Motion Smoother. It is just like what you described. It is in Menu -> Picture -> (Standard/Custom/....) -> Motion Smoother. I use either low or off. 8500 should have same settings somewhere. My old LCD had it too, I always turned it off.
post #1678 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Chad's review mentions floating blacks: "Black level measured .0069 fL with Black optimizer off and a 1080P/60 source. With the Black optimizer set to Dark room or Auto, it measured .0025 fL. With 1080P/24 and cinema smooth on, black level was .0072/.0025 fL, which is not significantly different. With Black Optimizer set to either auto or Dark room, Movie mode's modified ANSI contrast ratio was 7436:1, at 34.95/.0047 fL. That was further evidence of some black level floating, as the black level on a dark screen was significantly lower than black level of the checkerboard. Because of this fluctuating black level in the Dark room setting, I made the decision to do the calibration in Movie mode with the Black optimizer off. As calibrated, with Black optimizer off, the modified ANSI contrast ratio measured 6034:1, at 38.62/.0064 fL."

Also found this review:http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news/article/samsung-ps64f8500-review/15092/-

"The £3,000 PS64F8500 isn’t quite perfect. Its picture presets are ill-judged, for starters, with all of the TV’s presets bar 'Movie' pushing sharpness so hard images look fizzy and gritty. Floating blacks are sporadically apparent too, as the set adjusts the picture’s brightness and black level ‘tone’ so aggressively you’re distracted by the shift. This still happens even if you deactivate the set’s adaptive contrast setting."

So by my count that is 2 calibrators, 1 professional review and one owner

D-Nice talks about the F8500 floating blacks here, as well. See at 3:27.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcXcsN37v1I&feature=c4-overview&list=UUwv84KTmzJwVmQioyXfC5Uw
post #1679 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by fr8doggr View Post

OK, I am with Phanes. I have no idea what these floating blacks are that these senior members are talking about. I would like to see an example as well. Since that may not be possible, can someone describe what it is, and when/what content it is most likely to be seen? For example, is it two discernible shades of black in a letterbox? I am trying to decide between the F8500 and the ZT60 as well. This discussion has been very helpful most of the time, especially examples such as David's side-by-side comparison. I continue to learn so much reading this forum, but at times things can spiral away from noobs such as myself who are trying to decide between these two excellent sets.

My 2 year old Samsung D8000 plasma has floating blacks. Its most noticeable on letterbox bar on blurays, where the black bars suddenly get lighter momentarily, and then 'pop' back into the darker black. On bright scenes, its not as noticeable, but on darker scenes its pretty obvious. It is distracting sometimes, but I got used to it and still very much enjoy my D8000. I found it to be infinitely less distracting than the 'flashlighting' and light bleed issues on the Samsung LED tv that I returned after 3 days of use.
It sounds like Samsung has mitigated the floating black issue on the F8500, enough so that many owners are saying they cannot see it. It is good to know about it, only because this has been a Samsung issue in the past with thier plasmas. Chances are, you may never see it on F8500, and enjoy the set with no issues.
I recently purchased the Panny VT60 because 1) it was cheaper than the F8500 2) I already own 2 Samsung plasma and wanted to try something different 3) the slight chance the F8500 might have FB.
post #1680 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I tend to agree with this. actually been messing around a lot with settings that I had 'incorrect' on my projector for a couple weeks and finally conceded the theory isn't as important as the experimentation.

but for purposes of helping others, I think it's important to make the distinction between what you see, what can be seen, and what is displayed.

ie, a statement like, calibrators are still measuring floating blacks, but most owners are reporting that they do not see anything while viewing content. I have looked for it, and I can not see floating blacks on my set.

on a side note, this and the other f8500/vt60/zt60 threads have pointed out a lot of things I've never noticed before, haha. I still don't mind/notice floating blacks, as long as they get darker when the image gets darker i'd almost say that's an advantage(since the alternative would be maintaining a steady, but higher black level), i'd never heard of ABL before, never noticed it before, and because of these threads I've seen it more on the f8500 than any other display(because I never looked for it before).

it's nice to get all the info you can to make an informed decision. but it's not always a good thing to get caught up with the stuff you never thought to look for. at this level of display, none of these 'issues' are going to be noticeable to ppl not watching critically for them, or sensitive to them. so it's important to keep these complaints in perspective for what they really are.

Yup. As I've said before and you've reiterated, many things can be 'measured' and many of those things can't be seen. Aside from David, you, I and every other owner hasn't seen it. I have played TDK, watched other dark movies and have yet to see it. We know why it's very tough to see. As more and more light enters the scene, even if black levels are rising, your pupils dilate making it tough to see these small ticks up in black levels.

I think we've worn out this discussion as it's been on & off countless times. For whatever reason it's always brought up by Panasonic owners, but I guess that's just a coincidence. wink.gif

When an issue becomes visible to me and others, then I'll sit up & take notice. Until then it's wonderful that it can be measured, but again no owner is reporting seeing it.

As I've said before, if we take the single reports of owners as a problem endemic to the line, we better start talking about the ZT60 and 'softness', 'fan noise', 'dim pictures' etc. Are those reports less valid? Of course I've seen the softness & dim pictures, so for me, they would be an issue. smile.gif
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