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F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 72

post #2131 of 3096

I am really confused. I read through almost every page of this thread (Even the stupid arguments) and I went back and forth between these two TV's about 6 times. I finally thought I wanted the f8500, so I went to the owners thread and it's almost nothing but negatives! Look at this page http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf8500-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk/9030 .
It's either black lines appearing or 41dB buzzing noises or nightmares after software updates. Also, this past few weeks in this thread it seems like everyone is going with the ZT lately... Am I crazy or are Samsung owners not as happy as originally thought? I was really only leaning towards them for brightness but I don't know if it's worth it for all the issues I'm seeing on the forums. A side by side comparison can't tell you that you're going to hate your tv in a week when a software update makes your 3D have bright spots. 

Thoughts?

post #2132 of 3096
... Start a new thread with a polling asking for participation from Samsung F8500 owners if knowing what they know now (having experience "under their belt" owning the F8500), would they make the same purchasing decision all over again or would they have chosen the Panasonic VT/ZT instead. Post a link to your new thread within the F8500 owners thread. Watch the votes and comments roll in. See if the complainers would bail on the Samsung if given the choice or not. Make your call from there.
post #2133 of 3096
Well I have the ZT60 for a week. I love the blacks, but not the lack of brightness. Too me it is a deal breaker. I ordered the 8500 and will have it today. I have until January to return either or both. I'll compare and decide. I was emailing back and forth with an ISF calibrator that has done plasma's and DLP projectors in the past for me regarding the two sets. Here is his comments:

"The Panasonic ZT60 is excellent, but sadly, it is a little dark. It has the best black level, but it clips the white’s when the contrast/picture control is turned up and if it is down where it doesn’t clip, the set is very dim. The Samsung is significantly brighter than the Panasonic after calibration and is where I would go if I was buying a display at this time. I would rather sacrifice a little black level to have the overall light output at an acceptable level without clipping my video signal— I feel it is the better option overall."

Of course everyone has their own tastes and preferences. For me, the PQ is close but brighter on the 8500, then I'm sold. On the other hand, if there are QC issues, then they both go back. Those comments on the Samsung forum do concern me.
Ken
post #2134 of 3096
I have also had the ZT 60, just for a day. My Kuro that I have been watching for the last five years just died. My first impression was how quickly could I return it to BB. The grey scale in THX mode is obviously off and the picture lacks the clarity of my Kuro. The only mode which is even watchable to me is the custom which looks plus blue, but better than the plus yellow in the THX modes.

For those who have had the monitor for a while, is there any improvement in PQ with time? I know I have been spoiled with having the Kuro but I was not expecting the picture to be this bad.

VERY disappointed with this monitor.
post #2135 of 3096
""Korean Knockoffs" is a bit harsh. Samsung may be the only excellent plasma you can buy next year."

It's not harsh. It's accurate. It's their MO. They did little in terms of engineering a better panel, they just worked on doing easy things like making the TV thinner and improving the software. They cut the prices to the point where it was economically pointless for the market leader to stay in the market.

Here's what happens next year. The real competition is gone, so now that they can't just copy everyone else, the improvements die and the price goes up. Sadly, the clueless masses have destroyed the plasma market for those that actually care about how the picture looks.
post #2136 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newenglander View Post

I have also had the ZT 60, just for a day. My Kuro that I have been watching for the last five years just died. My first impression was how quickly could I return it to BB. The grey scale in THX mode is obviously off and the picture lacks the clarity of my Kuro. The only mode which is even watchable to me is the custom which looks plus blue, but better than the plus yellow in the THX modes.

For those who have had the monitor for a while, is there any improvement in PQ with time? I know I have been spoiled with having the Kuro but I was not expecting the picture to be this bad.

VERY disappointed with this monitor.
It undergoes lots of change in the first 300 hours as the phosphors break in. From what I've read/seen, the gray scale is actually one of the areas that will benefit the most from a calibration. THX (bright room in particular) on my set manifests a lot of green tint on skin tones.
post #2137 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

It undergoes lots of change in the first 300 hours as the phosphors break in. From what I've read/seen, the gray scale is actually one of the areas that will benefit the most from a calibration. THX (bright room in particular) on my set manifests a lot of green tint on skin tones.

Vinnie, was there any improvement in clarity? This is what my wife and I noticed the most. Everything looks a little dull. I know there is no way of improving it with changing sharpness without introducing artifacts. I was just reading through the Sammy thread and those monitors are also having some issues. No clear winners this year:(
post #2138 of 3096
It doesn't look dull to me....it is either equal to or better than my previous Kuro that I upgraded (a 111FD, predominately for size).
post #2139 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by housequestion View Post

Sadly, the clueless masses have destroyed the plasma market for those that actually care about how the picture looks.

Yup.
post #2140 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

It's a shame we have to travel down this road again, but the ZT60 does have better gradations and potentially even better shadow detail. There's no reason to believe 5 years of development courtesy of many of the same engineers would not provide any additional breakthroughs or benefits.

I 've heard the VT/ZT also has less PVM noise compared the Kuro, thus, a cleaner image.
post #2141 of 3096
After having the ZT60 and 8500 in my house and comparing both, I am sending the ZT back to Best Buy today. IT's a shame as I Iove the physical appearance of it.

I have about 50 hours on the Samsung and about 150 on the ZT.

The picture quality on both sets are very close. Any difference in color is irrelevant as they both would be about the same after ISF.

However the deciding factor for me is the brightness of the 8500 now, and what it will look like after ISF. I have had 4 DLP projectors and 3 plasmas ISF'd over the years and they are all darker after the calibration. To me , the ZT cannot afford to get darker.
Ken
post #2142 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

After having the ZT60 and 8500 in my house and comparing both, I am sending the ZT back to Best Buy today. IT's a shame as I Iove the physical appearance of it.

I have about 50 hours on the Samsung and about 150 on the ZT.

The picture quality on both sets are very close. Any difference in color is irrelevant as they both would be about the same after ISF.

However the deciding factor for me is the brightness of the 8500 now, and what it will look like after ISF. I have had 4 DLP projectors and 3 plasmas ISF'd over the years and they are all darker after the calibration. To me , the ZT cannot afford to get darker.
Ken

The ZT60 still has slightly better color decoding after calibration.

A display doesn't necessarily have to be darker after calibration - that just depends on multiple factors.

I had the VT60 and F8500 sitting next to each other in my living room for about a week, but given I don't need all of that light output of the F8500, I found the VT60 to be superior especially in regards to black levels and contrast. The F8500 is still a very nice display.
post #2143 of 3096

I am trying to decide between a 65 inch VT60 from Amazon for $2250 or a a 64 inch F8500 from East Coast TVs for $2550-$2600. My living room does not have any direct sunlight but there are windows, it's not a basement or anything. This picture shows where the TV will be hanging on the wall. Is the Samsung worth the extra $300-$350 from a less reputable source?

 

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/polishdude1/20131115_183317_zpsb1b1161c.jpg

post #2144 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

The ZT60 still has slightly better color decoding after calibration.

A display doesn't necessarily have to be darker after calibration - that just depends on multiple factors.

I had the VT60 and F8500 sitting next to each other in my living room for about a week, but given I don't need all of that light output of the F8500, I found the VT60 to be superior especially in regards to black levels and contrast. The F8500 is still a very nice display.

The black level is a little better on the ZT, but not a huge difference over the 8500. The 8500 though has better blacks than my Pioneer and so I'm ahead of the game.

I do not think the contrast is really better on the ZT.

The display is basically always darker after ISF.

For me, the ZT is not bright enough. Truth is, that's the one knock on this display. If the ZT had the brightness of the 8500 and kept the same blacks, the set would be better than the Kuro, and then there would never even be a conversation about the 8500.There would be no ZT versus 8500 thread. The ZT would be a slam dunk!
Ken
post #2145 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

The black level is a little better on the ZT, but not a huge difference over the 8500. The 8500 though has better blacks than my Pioneer and so I'm ahead of the game.

I do not think the contrast is really better on the ZT.

The display is basically always darker after ISF.

For me, the ZT is not bright enough. Truth is, that's the one knock on this display. If the ZT had the brightness of the 8500 and kept the same blacks, the set would be better than the Kuro, and then there would never even be a conversation about the 8500.There would be no ZT versus 8500 thread. The ZT would be a slam dunk!
Ken

When the F8500 and ZT60 are calibrated to similar light outputs (say, around 35ftl or less), the ZT60 has a much better ansi/contrast ratio.

However, the larger issue IMO is the floating blacks the F8500 has which I found very distracting. However, they are only really noticeable in a dark room. They won't be seen in a brighter room.

A display does not have to be darker after an ISF calibration. It all depends on the light output and ftL capability as well as preference. Some of my displays were brighter after calibration depending on how bright I wanted it and the display capability. The ZT can achieve around 30 ftl or so calibrated - that will not be a lot of light in a bright room for some.

For brighter room viewing, the F8500 is a no-brainer.
Edited by DavidHir - 11/22/13 at 7:56am
post #2146 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I 've heard the VT/ZT also has less PVM noise compared the Kuro, thus, a cleaner image.

If talking about PWM noise the 141's,101's or the KRP's no. These are the cleanest plasmas ever seen imo along with most of the Panasonic PRO monitors probably. No power restrictions helps.

And talking cleanliness this includes dithering which these KURO's are unbeatable - especially after tweaking/correcting RGB near black. And once that is adjusted every shade of gray through the brightness settings through to black (is) incredibly clean.

My mate brought his older PC along a few weeks ago that he was having issues with after his younger brother had been mucking around with - and you could have been forgiven for thinking in how it was displayed on the 500M that it was a lcd, it was so clean, clear and pin sharp. In fact he is a large LED LCD owner and he was taken aback at the clarity of the internet material and menu's being displayed, even on non PC modes. Literally had to be an inch from the screen to see (any) movement whatsoever - such is the cleanliness of the Kuro monitors.

In fact out of all the modes, 'Game' mode and 'Optimum' were the least clean if you could call it that. Even then it was only a matter of inches difference. 'Dynamic' mode is LCD like in cleanliness and sharp text clarity - but is too bright/saturated. A tweaked 'Sport' mode is ideal for desktop stuff, (if) wanting a LCD desktop lookalike which has the overly bright, bluey "clean" whites and over sharpened but clean clear text.

But i don't view Internet normally on my KRP as it's really not why i own one - just movies, broadcast programming and games for me normally with Pure, Movie, and Game modes 99% of the time.

But they do that well too, hence the m
Edited by Stu03 - 11/22/13 at 9:16am
post #2147 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

If talking about PWM noise the 141's,101's or the KRP's no. These are the cleanest plasmas ever seen imo along with most of the Panasonic PRO monitors probably. No power restrictions helps.

And talking cleanliness this includes dithering which these KURO's are unbeatable - especially after tweaking/correcting RGB near black. And once that is adjusted every shade of gray through the brightness settings through to black (is) incredibly clean.

My mate brought his older PC along a few weeks ago that he was having issues with after his younger brother had been mucking around with - and you could have been forgiven for thinking in how it was displayed on the 500M that it was a lcd, it was so clean, clear and pin sharp. In fact he is a large LED LCD owner and he was taken aback at the clarity of the internet material and menu's being displayed, even on non PC modes. Literally had to be an inch from the screen to see (any) movement whatsoever - such is the cleanliness of the Kuro monitors.

In fact out of all the modes, 'Game' mode and 'Optimum' were the least clean if you could call it that. Even then it was only a matter of inches difference. 'Dynamic' mode is LCD like in cleanliness and sharp text clarity - but is too bright/saturated. A tweaked 'Sport' mode is ideal for desktop stuff, (if) wanting a LCD desktop lookalike which has the overly bright, bluey "clean" whites and over sharpened but clean clear text.

But i don't view Internet normally on my KRP as it's really not why i own one - just movies, broadcast programming and games for me normally with Pure, Movie, and Game modes 99% of the time.

But they do that well too, hence the m


Ooops....yes, PWM. Thanks.
post #2148 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by ken6217 View Post

After having the ZT60 and 8500 in my house and comparing both, I am sending the ZT back to Best Buy today. IT's a shame as I Iove the physical appearance of it.

I have about 50 hours on the Samsung and about 150 on the ZT.

The picture quality on both sets are very close. Any difference in color is irrelevant as they both would be about the same after ISF.

However the deciding factor for me is the brightness of the 8500 now, and what it will look like after ISF. I have had 4 DLP projectors and 3 plasmas ISF'd over the years and they are all darker after the calibration. To me , the ZT cannot afford to get darker.
Ken

The lesser impact of ABL in the 8500 is another point in its favor. IMO the more aggressive nature of the ABL in the VT/ZT will detract from some of the impact of the picture during brighter scenes. Once you're aware of the action of ABL, it's hard not to see it.

They're all nice displays, with their pluses & minuses.
post #2149 of 3096
Thought I'd weigh in here. I've had a ZT60 for about two weeks now, in my living room, which is really quite bright during the day. For me the ZT60 has enough brightness that I can watch football (which is what my daytime weekend viewing typically consists of) without any issues. If I wanted to watch a darker show, like Boardwalk Empire (many scenes in that show are quite dark, lots of shadows) during the day, I find the lack of brightness to begin to be an issue. In a dim lighting environment, I absolutely love this TV. It is noticeably better than my VT50 I came from. The contrast, pop, and shadow detail are the best I have experienced by far (I never owned a Kuro). Also, I would point out I was somewhat underwhelmed when I first turned on the TV compared to my VT50, and was considering a return myself, but after about 150 hours of use or so, much of that using Dnice's panel prep slides, I noticed a significant improvement in the picture. Difficult to ascertain what changed in the picture to make it look so much better, but the ZT60 seemed to need more of a "break-in" period than I remember my VT50 needing. This is all subjective, but to me after 150 hours the ZT seemed to come alive, more apparent contrast (again, subjective), better color. Watched Dark Knight Rises the other evening and it looked amazing. Haven't had the set calibrated yet, but I would be willing to give up a bit of picture accuracy to get some more brightness out of the ZT60 for some daytime viewing, but overall, the THX presets are good enough for most of my daytime use. However, I understand if someone wants that extra brightness, and is willing to give up the contrast and shadow detail the VT or ZT provides and go for the F8500 for brightness. Depends on the personal preferences of the viewer, IMHO. Not really anything new here, but I did want to say that for the majority of my daytime viewing in a bright living room, the ZT60 still suffices just fine for me, and you get that extra dim room performance for movie night.
post #2150 of 3096

Have had the ZT60 for two weeks now.  Been having issues with inconsistent 3D playback.

 

However, another problem that I find is that even in a completely darkened room, the ZT60 is quite dim.  A show like Boardwalk Empire, which is very dark in colors and tone, is a perfect example of how much detail is lost in night scenes.  

 

Furthermore, when watching night scenes in 3D Blu-ray content, there is a lot of detail lost due to the fact that the screen does not get bright.

 

I was fortunate to be invited to an AVS member's home this morning to look at his F8500.  He traded in his ZT60 for the 8500 due to the same brightness issues.

 

Was very impressed with the picture -- particularly with the 3D, which looked better than it did on the ZT60.

 

The Samsung lacked that ultra-deep "holy crap" black level that the ZT60 sports.  However, I would say that the blacks on the F8500 were excellent, nonetheless.  

 

The ZT60 is a little more "classy" looking with its thinner chrome bezel and pedestal stand.  However, I think the F8500 is a very handsome display.

 

Still deciding what I am going to do as far as exchanging the ZT60 for the 8500.  It's another day of testing and then a decision will be made tomorrow.

post #2151 of 3096
^Detail is not necessarily being lost. You are using inputted settings from other members/calibrators, which may or may not be accurate for your set (they are merely a starting point). No accurate assessment about shadow detail can truly be made without a proper full calibration (grayscale is where these sets tend to benefit most). Ken has also had his F8500 calibrated, so again, not much can be taken from the memory comparison aside from darker blacks on the ZT60 and brighter whites on the F8500.
post #2152 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post

However, another problem that I find is that even in a completely darkened room, the ZT60 is quite dim.  A show like Boardwalk Empire, which is very dark in colors and tone, is a perfect example of how much detail is lost in night scenes.  

Still deciding what I am going to do as far as exchanging the ZT60 for the 8500.  It's another day of testing and then a decision will be made tomorrow.
[/quote

Interesting experience. During the day the ZT60 can be dim in a bright room, for sure, no news there. However, when I watched Boardwalk Empire in the evening I loved the picture and thought the ZT had noticeably better shadow detail than my VT50, didn't feel I was losing anything at all. In fact using the THX cinema setting, I wouldn't have wanted a brighter picture with the lights down, for example THX bright room was way too bright in a darkened room. I wonder if your gamma or grayscale is set up properly, as Vinnie mentioned? Of course the F8500 is also a great set, so not a bad choice to make IMHO. Up to the preferences of the viewer, really.
post #2153 of 3096

DrJay,

 

Last week's episode....

 

In the beginning, Chalky and his girlfriend arrive by car to a home.

 

It is quite dark outside.  You can barely make out the two characters inside the vehicle, let alone any surrounding detail.

 

Was watching in THX Cinema mode.

post #2154 of 3096
No colorimeter adjustments of the gamma (thanks, Doc) or grayscale make that observation questionably useful.
post #2155 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post

DrJay,

Last week's episode....

In the beginning, Chalky and his girlfriend arrive by car to a home.

It is quite dark outside.  You can barely make out the two characters inside the vehicle, let alone any surrounding detail.

Was watching in THX Cinema mode.

Interesting, I had a different take on my ZT using THX cinema watching the same programming....I watch on my VT50 using DNice's settings and see less shadow detail (the darkest details get lost a bit on the VT50 versus my ZT60.)
post #2156 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post

Have had the ZT60 for two weeks now.  Been having issues with inconsistent 3D playback.

However, another problem that I find is that even in a completely darkened room, the ZT60 is quite dim.  A show like Boardwalk Empire, which is very dark in colors and tone, is a perfect example of how much detail is lost in night scenes.  

Furthermore, when watching night scenes in 3D Blu-ray content, there is a lot of detail lost due to the fact that the screen does not get bright.

I was fortunate to be invited to an AVS member's home this morning to look at his F8500.  He traded in his ZT60 for the 8500 due to the same brightness issues.

Was very impressed with the picture -- particularly with the 3D, which looked better than it did on the ZT60.

The Samsung lacked that ultra-deep "holy crap" black level that the ZT60 sports.  However, I would say that the blacks on the F8500 were excellent, nonetheless.  

The ZT60 is a little more "classy" looking with its thinner chrome bezel and pedestal stand.  However, I think the F8500 is a very handsome display.

Still deciding what I am going to do as far as exchanging the ZT60 for the 8500.  It's another day of testing and then a decision will be made tomorrow.

Have been struggling with the same issues as you Ronald. Today went back to Best Buy and will be exchanging the ZT 60 for the F8500. Monitor was just too dim. Some program content was fair at best, but those with a warm color temperature were unwatchable. Hope I get a problem free unit..
post #2157 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by housequestion View Post

""Korean Knockoffs" is a bit harsh. Samsung may be the only excellent plasma you can buy next year."

It's not harsh. It's accurate. It's their MO. They did little in terms of engineering a better panel, they just worked on doing easy things like making the TV thinner and improving the software. They cut the prices to the point where it was economically pointless for the market leader to stay in the market.

Here's what happens next year. The real competition is gone, so now that they can't just copy everyone else, the improvements die and the price goes up. Sadly, the clueless masses have destroyed the plasma market for those that actually care about how the picture looks.

LOL seriously, you really should try and understand how all companies work in the modern world. Nobody has clean hands anymore. It's all part of the business game now.

Panasonic Corp. and its subsidiary, SANYO Electric Co. Ltd., have agreed to plead guilty and to pay a total of $56.5 million in criminal fines for their roles in separate price-fixing conspiracies involving automotive parts and battery cells, the Department of Justice announced today.

The European Commission (EC) has fined Philips, LG, Panasonic, Samsung, and two other firms a record €1.47 billion (roughly $1.92 billion) for fixing the price of TV components for nearly a decade. Philips was allocated the largest fine at €313.4 million ($411 million) followed in order by LG, Panasonic, and Samsung.

Japanese electronics giant Panasonic Corp. and a subsidiary of Michigan-based appliance maker Whirlpool Corp. have agreed to plead guilty and pay more than $140 million in criminal fines for their roles in an international price-fixing scheme, the U.S. Justice Department said Thursday.

Three African-American women in senior positions at Panasonic Corporation of North America in Secaucus are suing the electronics giant, claiming that for years they have been the victims of discrimination that has stunted their careers and depressed their earning ability.

And that's just recent, let's go back and look at what Matsushita did to take over the CE industry in the '70s shall we?
post #2158 of 3096
You mush have done a Google seacrh and posted everything you could dig up on Panasonic.

Price fixing is one thing. Stealing tech is another. Samsung just got hit again for stealing tech from Apple just last week. Apple got awarded $125 million or something like that.

As for the African Americans suing for discrimination? Well...
Edited by Bond 007 - 11/24/13 at 5:10pm
post #2159 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

You mush have done a Google seacrh and posted everything you could dig up on Panasonic.

Price fixing is one thing. Stealing tech is another. Samsung just got hit again for stealing tech from Apple just last week. Apple got awarded $125 million or something like that.

As for the African Americans suing for discrimination? Well...

Everyone steals, even Apple.....wink.gif But that's another topic.
post #2160 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

When the F8500 and ZT60 are calibrated to similar light outputs (say, around 35ftl or less), the ZT60 has a much better ansi/contrast ratio.

However, the larger issue IMO is the floating blacks the F8500 has which I found very distracting. However, they are only really noticeable in a dark room. They won't be seen in a brighter room.

A display does not have to be darker after an ISF calibration. It all depends on the light output and ftL capability as well as preference. Some of my displays were brighter after calibration depending on how bright I wanted it and the display capability. The ZT can achieve around 30 ftl or so calibrated - that will not be a lot of light in a bright room for some.

For brighter room viewing, the F8500 is a no-brainer.

My zt60 was calibrated brighter over thx cinema. It ended up being 38ftl with black at. .0012. So I'm a case where calibration made it brighter.

It looks great. D-nice did a superb job. When people say it's too dim I wonder what their viewing environment is like. There are times I've considered using my night mode (32 ftl). I think the 8500 light output would have been wasted on me.
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