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F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 81

post #2401 of 3096
I don't own a Darbee yet but am fully aware that it convincingly artificially sharpens the image on a micro level, and that's enough, so please don't presume to tell me what I can or can't comment about.

You're right, we're wrong! Happy?

Happy New Year! rolleyes.gif
post #2402 of 3096
i cant speak to the vt60, im told it's better in some ways picture wise than the zt60. except for slightly deeper blacks that the zt60 displays, but i have never seen a vt60, only a zt60.
post #2403 of 3096
this is a friendly site to debate, thats all. not happy or unhappy! Oppo has licensed the darbe technology on their newest player. kind of interesting that they would do this. i have the darblet and its not that great except maybe for projectors, which tend to be soft anyway due to lenses.
post #2404 of 3096

Honestly digital sharpening is marginally if at all "better" with low quality feeds, on a good source all you are really adding is noise amplification and additional ringing for the illusion of a sharper image, I always turn this feature off if it is possible because the trade-off is not worth it.

post #2405 of 3096
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Edited by changboy - 12/29/13 at 7:47pm
post #2406 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by changboy View Post

Sorry i was wrong about the review its another review they talk about it, its here :

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-txp60zt65b-201305062961.htm


It's write this : We were able to hit our 120 cd/m2 light output target with the ZT, but only after a little bit of ageing (when the display was newer it was around 108 cd/m2, which is still entirely sufficient). This is great going for a plasma TV of this size.

So it's not a urban legend this was measured at 150 hour but not measure again later but i clearly saw on mine this add of light output later again.

Thanks for posting a link to the correct review smile.gif

Sorry, don't mean to be a pain in the ass here, but I still don't seem to find anything in that review either about increasing brightness of the ZT60 overtime, just that it wasn't able to reach the 120 cd/m2 target initially?
post #2407 of 3096
deleted
Edited by changboy - 12/29/13 at 7:48pm
post #2408 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

You've made your mind up already, it sounds. Not sure why you want the opposition to submit to your viewpoint. wink.gif What advantage you notice more will be entirely dependent upon the environment in which you watch. Watching a sunlit sky, the ZT60 can be blinding (again, in a darkened cinematic environment), so that is more than accurate enough for me. DavidHir had the VT and F8500 side-by-side and the black level and subsequent shadow details that were more visible in the former set swayed him to keep it. YMMV. Muffin seems to be the only one reporting a blurry picture after that firmware update on the F8500. You should grab the set that appeals to you most visually and be done with it.

I'm giving my viewpoint just like you and this is a F8500 vs. ZT60 message board if I'm not mistaken. I'm not dismissive of the ZT60's strengths (unlike you with the F8500) but it should be acknowledged the F8500 does have PQ strengths such as SD video processing and more realistic whites.

Los Angeles is verifying what I suspect and DavidHir is telling me the whites are good enough and not worth giving up the better shadow detail and blacks of the ZT60.
Edited by venus933 - 12/27/13 at 5:37am
post #2409 of 3096
deleted
Edited by changboy - 12/29/13 at 7:48pm
post #2410 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by changboy View Post

Personally i don't mind ok coz me i understand but for you, better forget about this now coz i gave you the link and you read it and you keep tell me that's not mean nothing, so yes you right, pain in the ass here.

p.s. its the same thing i talk to the wall behind me and i won't give my energy and time for this, sorry man.

Not sure why you get so worked up (or why you feel the need to talk to your walls for that matter). I simply stated that I was unable to find any support for your claim in the review you linked to. It might be that I just missed it, if so, just let us know where to find it and that's that. Or another respectable source for that matter.

It great that you love your ZT60 and I'm happy for you, but I think it's beneficial for everyone to separate between opinions and facts. And it would be very nice if the light output of the ZT60 did increase with more usage, as it is one of the things why many probably go with the F8500 instead and sacrificing some blacks to get it.
post #2411 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by changboy View Post

If here we all think the white is really more important then the black we were not here talking bla bla coz we all own a LED, but its not that we all know its the black win over the white, Unrealistic white not so hard to have coz all LED can produce it.

What is hard to get its a pure black without noise and perfect shadow detail, And if you own a ZT you can do the same if you reduce the temperature of the white down to 6500K, here i can put my white look blue if i want or i can put at 6400K and the white will look more white and will match more the same white of the F8500 but when i will look natural scene all will look less natural, can a F8500 hit a perfect temperature of 6500K or the panel can't do it ? that is the question.

I think the HDTVTest review you yourself linked to above summarize it well:

"All of this means that the Panasonic ZT65/ZT60 has the deepest blacks out of any large-screen flat panel TV currently on the market, but not necessarily the highest contrast ratio once the peak white performance is brought into the equation. Both the Samsung PS64F8500 we recently reviewed, and the Pioneer KURO plasmas, are able to produce brighter peak whites. You really can’t go wrong with any of these TVs – they’re all first rate – but there will be viewers who favour Panasonic’s world-beating black level and sufficiently bright peak luminance, just as there will be users who prefer Samsung’s sufficiently dark blacks and exceptionally bright peak whites."
post #2412 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post

i cant speak to the vt60, im told it's better in some ways picture wise than the zt60. except for slightly deeper blacks that the zt60 displays, but i have never seen a vt60, only a zt60.
Exactly, they are similar enough that I don't think he'd come away with a radically different opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

I'm giving my viewpoint just like you and this is a F8500 vs. ZT60 message board if I'm not mistaken. I'm not dismissive of the ZT60's strengths (unlike you with the F8500) but it should be acknowledged the F8500 does have PQ strengths such as SD video processing and more realistic whites.

Los Angeles is verifying what I suspect and DavidHir is telling me the whites are good enough and not worth giving up the better shadow detail and blacks of the ZT60.
No, I'm not downplaying F8500's lower resolution processing strengths, but, yes, I am downplaying the whiter whites malarkey (brighter, certainly...if this is what you feel qualifies as more realistic, no comment!).
Edited by vinnie97 - 12/27/13 at 9:03am
post #2413 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post

the f8500 has significantly better white, its not just about brightness. all this talk of blacks is ok, but the f8500 has fantastic blacks, and way way better white. once you increase brightness on the zt60 near the top of it's capability, to get better whites, (and u will do this) the rest of the picture tends to have issues and technically falls apart, plus on top of that the zt 60 is NOT sharp, and has inferior video processing on all compressed picture content. take a look at all the pixel noise inside writing that appears on the screen, the less compression there is, the zt60 will hold it's ground, but otherwise the picture is soft and has processing interpolation noise, the f8500 is noticeably better in side by side comparison. the zt60 has a softer/smoother pic, and whites that look tinged brown at times.....side by side this is apparent. i wanted to like the zt60 i really did, but it just didnt happen, the zt60 has significant fan noise, and even has a slight green tinge on skin tones at times, this was even after a high quality 6 hour calibration. the menu on the zt 60 is ridiculously small, its like ok a 65 inch screen and it has text letters and numbers that are a quarter inch tall?! come on....... bottom line, the f8500 gives you some lcd/led qualities and some plasma qualities and its fantastic! the user interface of the zt60 is 3 years old looking. i had both sets side by side and can tell you all this as fact. just reporting this in case it helps someone decide.

Getting nice whites means getting a neutral greyscale. Yes, The F8500 does have better ABL, but I didn't see too much of a difference at all except on only a few scenes. Still harping on green skin tones on the ZT? Either something is wrong with the set, or most likely just not calibrated properly - and THX out of the box does NOT mean it is properly calibrated - that only means it's the best out-of-box setting.
post #2414 of 3096
I just have to say it's appalling at the lack of basic calibration and PQ knowledge this year in these threads. Lot's of laziness on people's part and lots of misinformation is prevalent. frown.gif
post #2415 of 3096
deleted
Edited by changboy - 12/29/13 at 7:48pm
post #2416 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by improwise View Post


I think the HDTVTest review you yourself linked to above summarize it well:

"All of this means that the Panasonic ZT65/ZT60 has the deepest blacks out of any large-screen flat panel TV currently on the market, but not necessarily the highest contrast ratio once the peak white performance is brought into the equation. Both the Samsung PS64F8500 we recently reviewed, and the Pioneer KURO plasmas, are able to produce brighter peak whites. You really can’t go wrong with any of these TVs – they’re all first rate – but there will be viewers who favour Panasonic’s world-beating black level and sufficiently bright peak luminance, just as there will be users who prefer Samsung’s sufficiently dark blacks and exceptionally bright peak whites."

 

Samsung are using basically parlor tricks to post a higher full pattern contrast ratio otherwise they trail far behind even an VT25, the direct side affect of this "processing" is brightness pops which I doubt anyone is very thankful for. I guess its a moot point since the F8500 was the last nail in Panasonics coffin and maybe the magical brightness pops will be buried for 2014 along with Panny

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1415546/patterns-to-measure-mll-as-a-function-of-apl

 

If you tell me they don't operate like that I will point out Samsung was caught twice writing code to target and cheat on benchmarks


Edited by Dunday - 12/27/13 at 10:03am
post #2417 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by changboy View Post

From the review of the F8500 cnet :
BLACK:

Unfortunately, you do have to trade away true film cadence if you want the absolute deepest black levels the F8500 can deliver. When I switched the Film Mode setting from Off to Cinema Smooth, those inky blacks got slightly brighter.

A strange image retention artifact did occur on the F8500 that I've never seen before. When I paused the image or the shot lingered for long enough on a dark stationary element, purplish noise would begin to gradually accumulate in shadowy areas. It happened in the upper-right of the screen on the beige car interior (between 4:14 and 4:19), for example, and became quite obvious if I paused. It wasn't overly distracting, and disappeared nearly immediately when the image changed, but it's still unusual and potentially distracting in certain stationary shots with near-black material. I also saw it during calibration (see the picture settings above for details).

If either of these things were there at launch day, they have been resolved via firmware updates probably since June. I really wish reviewers would edit their reviews after some point and at least address that.

Quote:
Switching back to Off, which delivers the deepest black levels, caused the cadence to assume the characteristic, slightly hitching motion of 2:3 pull-down. It's a subtle difference, but videophiles will have to choose between correct cadence and the deepest blacks. I chose the latter, for what it's worth.

Assuming this was a David Katzmaier review, I'm personally appalled at the fact that a professional television reviewer such as himself would actually sacrifice 3:2 pulldown for deeper black levels. Anybody who's anybody knows what nauseating flickering effect 60Hz motion has on Blu-ray discs, and how much it means for 24Hz/96Hz Cinema Smooth to be enabled for the Samsungs.

Now personally, I got the F8500 with updated firmware that addressed this stuff so I don't know how much lighter the black levels were prior to this, but apparently the D7000 has the same issue (still does), and I've turned Film Mode to Cinema Smooth and Off and really can't see enough of a difference in black levels to justify having it off there, either. I just simply can't believe that D.K. chose slightly deeper black levels over proper (or improper depending on who you talk to) film cadence. That's embarrassing.
post #2418 of 3096
You know what else would be nice? For Samsung to stop rushing product half-cocked and expect its consumer base to serve as its beta testers.
post #2419 of 3096
“but, yes, I am downplaying the whiter whites malarkey”

Well good for you! Enjoy your TV!
post #2420 of 3096
deleted
Edited by changboy - 12/29/13 at 7:48pm
post #2421 of 3096
what does malarkey mean, is that a word?
post #2422 of 3096
deleted
Edited by changboy - 12/29/13 at 7:49pm
post #2423 of 3096
Have we seriously moved into dictionary.com matters now?
post #2424 of 3096
hey thanks everyone for the debate, i appriciate all the viewpoints and having input. i came late to the game but i think we beat the malarkey out of this one! enjoy all the tv's, what a great invention! i am moving over to the f8500 owners forum! troll 1 out.
post #2425 of 3096
deleted
Edited by changboy - 12/29/13 at 7:49pm
post #2426 of 3096
Peace out, hollywood hills...soon enough we will all be buying Samsungs followed by Chinese junk. eek.gif
post #2427 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

I'm giving my viewpoint just like you and this is a F8500 vs. ZT60 message board if I'm not mistaken. I'm not dismissive of the ZT60's strengths (unlike you with the F8500) but it should be acknowledged the F8500 does have PQ strengths such as SD video processing and more realistic whites.

Los Angeles is verifying what I suspect and DavidHir is telling me the whites are good enough and not worth giving up the better shadow detail and blacks of the ZT60.

Vinnie has been a long time basher of Samsung so take his Samsung statements with a grain of salt.

Clearly the general public believes the F8500 has the most realistic picture and that's the bottom line.
post #2428 of 3096
They've earned every bit of that bashing. It should also be added that discopaul has always come to Samsung's defense, so you'd be advised to do the same about grains of salt. The ZT60 is the most Kuro-like picture since that ill-fated final model year when Pioneer pulled the plug...nearly all the pros concur and if you really want to follow the public's lead, you could just grab one of those flashy eye-searing edgelit LCDs and ignore this thread.

Also, while we're dabbling with the salts, please feel free to take all these impressions and empirical evidence with said grains:

HDTVTest: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-txp60zt65b-201305062961.htm
Digital Trends: http://www.digitaltrends.com/tv-reviews/panasonic-viera-tc-p60zt60-review/
Sound & Vision: http://www.soundandvision.com/content/panasonic-tc-p65zt60-3d-plasma-hdtv
Reviewed.com: http://televisions.reviewed.com/content/panasonic-viera-tc-p65zt60-review
T3: http://www.t3.com/reviews/panasonic-tx-p60zt65-review
HD Guru: http://hdguru.com/panasonic-tc-p65zt60-hdtv-first-review/
The shootout where the F8500 dazzled the crowd by a hair: http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Samsung-Panasonic-Plasma-TVs-Trounce-the-LED-Competition-Again-at-Flat-Panel-Shootout-2013.shtml (summary)
The shootout in its entirety: http://youtube.com/hdtvshootout
Edited by vinnie97 - 12/27/13 at 9:19pm
post #2429 of 3096
deleted
Edited by changboy - 12/31/13 at 3:46pm
post #2430 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

They've earned every bit of that bashing. It should also be added that discopaul has always come to Samsung's defense, so you'd be advised to do the same about grains of salt. The ZT60 is the most Kuro-like picture since that ill-fated final model year when Pioneer pulled the plug...nearly all the pros concur and if you really want to follow the public's lead, you could just grab one of those flashy eye-searing edgelit LCDs and ignore this thread.

Also, while we're dabbling with the salts, please feel free to take all these impressions and empirical evidence with said grains:

HDTVTest: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-txp60zt65b-201305062961.htm
Digital Trends: http://www.digitaltrends.com/tv-reviews/panasonic-viera-tc-p60zt60-review/
Sound & Vision: http://www.soundandvision.com/content/panasonic-tc-p65zt60-3d-plasma-hdtv
Reviewed.com: http://televisions.reviewed.com/content/panasonic-viera-tc-p65zt60-review
T3: http://www.t3.com/reviews/panasonic-tx-p60zt65-review
HD Guru: http://hdguru.com/panasonic-tc-p65zt60-hdtv-first-review/
The shootout where the F8500 dazzled the crowd by a hair: http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Samsung-Panasonic-Plasma-TVs-Trounce-the-LED-Competition-Again-at-Flat-Panel-Shootout-2013.shtml (summary)
The shootout in its entirety: http://youtube.com/hdtvshootout

As D-Nice stated, if the ZT60/VT60 is a 100 then the F8500 is a 99 and it comes down to your personal preference. A common sentiment from most of the reviews I have read.

And apparently Panasonic will not be coming out with an OLED anytime soon. Not a good sign that OLED production problems are getting resolved. I guess we'll all need to hang onto our plasmas once production ends (Samsung is probably done after 2014).

http://televisions.reviewed.com/news/sony-panasonic-end-oled-plans
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