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F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 12

post #331 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

I've seen an F8500, VT50 (not 60), and F8000 together in Best Buy, which is hardly the place to judge. While the F8500 beat the VT50 using whatever settings they had, the F8000 smoked both in terms of brightness.

i would agree with that. i spend about half an hour watching the F8500 beside the F8000. LED was definitely brighter, for better or worse, but it didn't look like an outrageous difference when both sets were in the same picture modes. the F8500 in vivid was brighter than the f8000 in movie for example(sorry, that might not be what the modes are called exactly).

i will admit though that the f8000 was a lot more watchable in torch mode than the f8500. they were playing monsters inc and fur on the big blue guy looked to 'flicker' when he moved on the f8500. once put into movie mode this went away though.

anyway, from my viewing i'd say the vt was noticeably dimmer than the f8500, which was slightly dimmer than the LED's around it. the honest truth is both stores i've seen the f8500 in have them next to LED's and it doesn't stand out from that company until you look closer. now if only i could find one displaying the f8500 in a dark room...
post #332 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

i would agree with that. i spend about half an hour watching the F8500 beside the F8000. LED was definitely brighter, for better or worse, but it didn't look like an outrageous difference when both sets were in the same picture modes. the F8500 in vivid was brighter than the f8000 in movie for example(sorry, that might not be what the modes are called exactly).

i will admit though that the f8000 was a lot more watchable in torch mode than the f8500. they were playing monsters inc and fur on the big blue guy looked to 'flicker' when he moved on the f8500. once put into movie mode this went away though.

anyway, from my viewing i'd say the vt was noticeably dimmer than the f8500, which was slightly dimmer than the LED's around it. the honest truth is both stores i've seen the f8500 in have them next to LED's and it doesn't stand out from that company until you look closer. now if only i could find one displaying the f8500 in a dark room...

Not many dark rooms with the big B7M, the closest youll probably get are the Magnolia Sections of the Best Buys which usually ahve thier own "light controlled" room and section with different lighting than the main floor.....
post #333 of 3096
I like that the calibrators do their thing because I wouldn't be able to take all the measurements myself and my own satisfaction with the set doesn't become apparent to me untill I've had it in MY
viewing environment for quite awhile (think days and lots of content and scenarios). I do have some faith in the imaging science foundation and I still need those expert numbers and nuances to best gauge what is going to be good for ME and MY environment since I know from experience which of them correlates best to MY own enjoyment, ansi contrast ratio. For YOU (rhetorical) it could be overall brightness. I have tried to understand brightness better and I certainly would be disappointed if it weren't bright enough for me in MY san diego living room. I still don't understand why when I go to the store and try MY own quick blind taste test I end up in front of an edge lit LCD as best -- every single time!

ph8te, I tried to capitalize all the right parts for you smile.gif let me know if there nees to be any editing biggrin.gif

edited for boldness wink.gif
Edited by mo949 - 4/26/13 at 2:39pm
post #334 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I like that the calibrators do their thing because I wouldn't be able to take all the measurements myself and my own satisfaction with the set doesn't become apparent to me untill I've had it in MY viewing environment for quite awhile (think days and lots of content and scenarios). I do have some faith in the imaging science foundation and I still need those expert numbers and nuances to best gauge what is going to be good for ME and MY environment since I know from experience which of them correlates best to MY own enjoyment, ansi contrast ratio. For YOU (rhetorical) it could be overall brightness. I have tried to understand brightness better and I certainly would be disappointed if it weren't bright enough for me in MY san diego living room. I still don't understand why when I go to the store and try MY own quick blind taste test I end up in front of an edge lit LCD as best -- every single time!

ph8te, I tried to capitalize all the right parts for you smile.gif let me know if there nees to be any editing biggrin.gif

very funny biggrin.gif

no need to caps though really wink.gif
post #335 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Well thats what I was saying, to have the attendees not the calibrators vote that way. The calibrators will of course know which set is which, well becasue they calibrated them wink.gif the attendees however might not know if the bezel and and branding were hidden....You could "guess" sure, but its only a guess then and you could be wrong....

Yup, and if you have to guess which tv has better black levels between 2 or more calibrated panels, sitting next to each other, in the same room, then these sets will be ranked pretty much identical. I know its probably not practical for them to employ this design but it would make their results more valid. Although you could be able to compare the VT60 and the ZT60 this way since I believe they look identical.
Edited by remush - 4/26/13 at 2:47pm
post #336 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Not many dark rooms with the big B7M, the closest youll probably get are the Magnolia Sections of the Best Buys which usually ahve thier own "light controlled" room and section with different lighting than the main floor.....

keep in mind i'm in canada. best buys don't have 'magnolia' rooms here as far as i can tell.

both shops i visited had the panasonics in dark(ish) rooms and the samsungs out on the main floor under the lights with all the other LCD's. they both looked good in their respective locations
post #337 of 3096
Question here, which of the two (panny/sammy) has the better off angle viewing? This is a very important factor in my decision makin between these two tv's.
post #338 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

now if only i could find one displaying the f8500 in a dark room...

Where about do you live up here?
post #339 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Akin View Post

Question here, which of the two (panny/sammy) has the better off angle viewing? This is a very important factor in my decision makin between these two tv's.

It depends what type of angles and how close youll be to the TV.....The Panasonics were measured with a better off axis viewing (ive only seen one test of this), but both will beat all LCDs in this manner....are you talking putting this up on the wall? sitting 1 foot in front of the TV? or just side angles?
post #340 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

It depends what type of angles and how close youll be to the TV.....The Panasonics were measured with a better off axis viewing (ive only seen one test of this), but both will beat all LCDs in this manner....are you talking putting this up on the wall? sitting 1 foot in front of the TV? or just side angles?
Yeah the tv will be going on the wall a little above eye level. Our living room is open to the den and kitchen area but off to the side from where the tv will be. We have a 50" Panasonic now that does real well when watching from kitchen area.
post #341 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Akin View Post

Yeah the tv will be going on the wall a little above eye level. Our living room is open to the den and kitchen area but off to the side from where the tv will be. We have a 50" Panasonic now that does real well when watching from kitchen area.

Then I dont see a reason why you wouldnt be happy with either set wink.gif it all depends how extreeme the angles we are talking about are.....May jsut come down to a personal preference..
post #342 of 3096
Ok thanks, so one doesn't have the advantage over the other then. My plans are to go and see them soon....90 miles away....we live in the sticks
post #343 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

Believe me, the arguments are better to be in this thread than the main F8500 thread. I'm sure you have seen trolls posting pictures of their TVs comparing it to F8500 and shamelessly saying MY TV is better than YOURS.

So let it be here smile.gif
Nobody said such a thing. As I recall, it was nothing more than the posting of a couple of photos (which I used as nothing more than a simple comparison of detail/resolution), at which point several F8500 owners went ape in horror that anyone would commit such an atrocity. Overreaction, much.
post #344 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Akin View Post

Ok thanks, so one doesn't have the advantage over the other then. My plans are to go and see them soon....90 miles away....we live in the sticks

As far as viewing angles go? no the Panasonic is better as measured, but Ive only seen taht measured once. The Samsung this very has a an agressive filter on it, so as you get closer (less than 3-4 feet) you will start to see it darken the screen. When I went to see the F8500 in Magnolia it wasnt as bad as I was thinking and I was able to walk to both sides of it without anything taking a hit (and at the angles I was at, I wouldnt feel comfortable watching anything)....The VT60 I was only able to get to one side since they have that one at the end by the corner......Its a good plan to go and see them before you buy, while not 100% its still better than blind buying...
post #345 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Nobody said such a thing. As I recall, it was nothing more than the posting of a couple of photos (which I used as nothing more than a simple comparison of detail/resolution), at which point several F8500 owners went ape in horror that anyone would commit such an atrocity. Overreaction, much.

Actually it was just one of each wink.gif I know why urgo did it since he is looking at the F8500, but I think the point was he wwas comparing a "tuned" Kuro to a set with OOTB settings, I think the same thing would be said by anyone where a photo like that was posted smile.gif ....

He didnt mean any harm by it (at least I dont think he did)......
post #346 of 3096
Me neither (didn't think he intended harm). The overreaction to that was as if someone tried to kill their pets, sheesh.
post #347 of 3096
for some of them yes, but I think it was jsut based on the inital post without the explination..Never can tell these days the intention.....
post #348 of 3096
Did anyone catch above, about how the zt would best or at least equal everything about the vt, except for sound? Surely I misunderstood something, unless the zt is so special it doesn't even come with speakers?





Quote:
I know why urgo did it since he is looking at the F8500, but I think the point was he wwas comparing a "tuned" Kuro to a set with OOTB settings,
Quote:
The overreaction to that was as if someone tried to kill their pets, sheesh

More like, as if someone posted a pic of their girlfriend w/o makeup in the morning, next to an older but still flawless milf's glamour shot.

NOT COOL!

mad.gif
post #349 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post

Did anyone catch above, about how the zt would best or at least equal everything about the vt, except for sound? Surely I misunderstood something, unless the zt is so special it doesn't even come with speakers?

More like, as if someone posted a pic of their girlfriend w/o makeup in the morning, next to an older but still flawless milf's glamour shot.

NOT COOL!

mad.gif

It has speakers, but I believe they are the same as the VT, so dont expect anything different. This is only what I rememebr from reading on various posts however. The ZT focuses on Picture Quality. It also doesnt come with the Video Camera that the VT does, but has it as an option........
post #350 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

Right, well it would just depend on the level of brightness people need. From my experience though, people that don't find the Panasonic to be bright enough won't be happy with the brightness of the F8500.

And IMO (and apparently many others in both this and the F8500 thread), that would be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

If brightness is a big concern, I would recommend people go LCD. Obviously there is that window of people that don't think the Panasonic's are bright enough (and I'm talking last years' models here - as there have yet to be many expert comparisons of this years Sammys v. Pannys), and don't need LCD brightness - and it sounds like F8500 makes a good fit for them, I just think that population is very small.

So let's see, with today's LEDs the disadvantages would be issues inherent in edge lit designs (there are no full array being produced at this point), limited off-axis viewing, black levels not as good as the best plasmas and varying degrees of banding. The F8500 produces a good % of the typical LED's brightness without the adverse effects just mentioned.

That's a pretty good rationale why people will buy the F8500 over the typical LEDs available today.
post #351 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

And I'm not sure how brightness of the VT60 compares to the VT50, but full-screen white measurements that I've seen for the ST60 are lower than on the ST50.

Is that correct? I didn't realize that.
post #352 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

actually the f8500 black level is not improvement over last year's panasonics.

I don't believe that's correct. Everything I've seen says the MLLs are better in the F8500 than any Panasonic prior to the 60s.
post #353 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I don't believe that's correct. Everything I've seen says the MLLs are better in the F8500 than any Panasonic prior to the 60s.

The vt50's are equal to st60 black level. St60 black level is better than f8500. So that isn't really true. Though there are various mll measurements from the f8500 so I guess it depends on what measurement you look at.
post #354 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

actually the f8500 black level is not improvement over last year's panasonics. its significantly improved over last years samsungs though as I read it in Kevin Miller's writeup. I too like to have the letterbox bars disappear into the dim evening light, but to me I'd take a huge ansi contrast ratio over that because it provides the pop and shadow detail I crave in a picture, ie if the 8500 can beat the vt50 ansi contrast ratio, I'd be a bit jealous regardless of black or bright levels wink.gif

of course that's my singular view as always....some prefer brightness or blackness over that...and others care about input lag and how well the SOE can be performed without stutters.

The F8500 is typically measuring .0016 - .0017 MLL with the Dark Optimizer on and .005 with it off. The VT50 in 60hz was around .0022 and .0018 MLL in 96hz mode (many people don't like 96hz mode because of flicker, so they use 60hz).
post #355 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Nobody said such a thing. As I recall, it was nothing more than the posting of a couple of photos (which I used as nothing more than a simple comparison of detail/resolution), at which point several F8500 owners went ape in horror that anyone would commit such an atrocity. Overreaction, much.

I think the reaction of some was due more to the many variables involved in two different people snapping a picture to post on the forum. There's no way that any conclusion could be drawn about resolution or anything else because of those variables. Most don't really care about how a display they're considering today compares to one that hasn't been produced in years. smile.gif
post #356 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Akin View Post

Ok thanks, so one doesn't have the advantage over the other then. My plans are to go and see them soon....90 miles away....we live in the sticks

In the horizontal axis, I've seen no difference between the two at all. If you're very close to the display (within a couple of feet), then the Panasonic has the better vertical viewing axis due to the filter employed by Samsung.
post #357 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Me neither (didn't think he intended harm). The overreaction to that was as if someone tried to kill their pets, sheesh.

Kind of like the reaction that some in the "8500 or ZT60" thread have to the F8500.biggrin.gif
post #358 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

The F8500 is typically measuring .0016 - .0017 MLL with the Dark Optimizer on and .005 with it off. The VT50 in 60hz was around .0022 and .0018 MLL in 96hz mode (many people don't like 96hz mode because of flicker, so they use 60hz).

I am not familiar with "dark optimizer" - does this have adverse effect on pq?
post #359 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbmannc View Post

The vt50's are equal to st60 black level. St60 black level is better than f8500. So that isn't really true. Though there are various mll measurements from the f8500 so I guess it depends on what measurement you look at.

The reviews I've read indicate the 8500 has the better MLLs prior to Panasonic's 2013 models. So I guess I missed the review you're referencing.
post #360 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

The F8500 is typically measuring .0016 - .0017 MLL with the Dark Optimizer on and .005 with it off. The VT50 in 60hz was around .0022 and .0018 MLL in 96hz mode (many people don't like 96hz mode because of flicker, so they use 60hz).

Those are generally the numbers I've seen in all the reviews I've read too. That's why I said the 8500 has the best MLLs prior to the 2013 Pannys.

But hell, these numbers are all so close and all so good, to me it's not ground-breaking either way. All of these still don't match the black levels I see on my Elite, so i'd take a hit in that area regardless of what I buy. When I saw the ZT60 at the show, my first thought when they showed full screen black was 'OK, nice, but still not as good as what I'm used to with the Elite'.
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