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F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 17

post #481 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

I wouldnt either, but in order to get those deep blacks they may have had to "sacrifice" somewhere....From the report it would seem to be peak brightness....This means little however to those that were looking for a set in a controlled lighting\dediated theater room....Time will tell and hopefully we get some mroe information in the weeks to come as well as the Shootout....

This is what I think is happening. Every time I crank up the VT60 in a store I cannot even get it to look as bright as my Kuro.....let alone an 8500. For me blacks or not unless I can get it as bright as the Kuro it is not as good of an overall display. Unfortunately, at the shootout you will not see this as every display will be capped in ftl at what..... 32ftl?
post #482 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post

This is what I think is happening. Every time I crank up the VT60 in a store I cannot even get it to look as bright as my Kuro.....let alone an 8500. For me blacks or not unless I can get it as bright as the Kuro it is not as good of an overall display. Unfortunately, at the shootout you will not see this as every display will be capped in ftl at what..... 32ftl?

I believe its 35ftL is what all the sets will be calibrated to, at least according to Buzz.....We may get the other levels when they go over each set, however that is not what they'll be "graded" on.....
post #483 of 3096
Just keep in mind that with one display Energy Star rated and the other not, I think that's a tipoff as to power supply size differences.

I recall Robert saying Samsung told him they put in a huge power supply and this may reflect in a less aggressive ABL behavior.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
post #484 of 3096
Until we see some peak luminance numbers on the ZT60 for NA, it might be too early to declare it a Kuro buster.
post #485 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

ok, thanks. I thought I was pretty picky about this, but I know my LCD is WAY brighter than that and the bars disappear as long as there's bright content on about 25% or more of the screen.

guess i'll keep my focus on detail in all dark scenes, as that still seems to be an area my eyes are picky

no problem. If you are used to 'cinema black' features you definitely want to be careful, cause you'll never get that black again unless you are getting a kuro which is low enough in number to truly be inconsequential from the look of things. I still think the screen uniformity difference and the rich detail that a very large contrast ratio gives you justifies the switch from an edge-lit to a plasma though regardless.

Like you, I seem to learn a new metric every time I do this smile.gif
post #486 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD View Post

I am watching Criminal Minds on my VT50 right now, in the day, in a light environment and it looks just fine and certainly better then the DLP I had. I visited a BB yesterday and they had a VT60 on the open floor, not a controlled light environment and it looked spectacular. They also had a wall mounted F8500 also in an open area. It was brighter as it should be in Dynamic mode. Two days ago I was in a different BB and they had a VT60, a 60 and 64 inch F8500 in a row.All were stand mounted and basically the same height. The VT was set for THX Day, one F85 was set for Standard the other was in Movie. There was very little difference in brightness. One of the FBs was a bit brighter then the other. Just my observations.

As far as aesthetics, the VT60 wins hands down. That FB stand is ugly. What was Samsung thinking? They (BB) had a wedge under one of the sets to keep it from wobbling.

Wow I couldn't disagree more. To my eyes, seeing it in person and right next to an F8500, the VT60 looks (and feels, cheap. The V-stand looked good to me in pictures, but in person the material looks really sub-par. The cheap looking silver bezel is also really unfortunate. I was quite surprised.

I imagine the Zt60 will look much better but I'll wait and see. There's of course no accounting for taste, but to me, the F8500 looks way more classy and way more upscale than the Vt60. Of course, I thought the VT50 looked pretty bad too, which was one strike against it for me when shopping last year. And then there's that undefeatable red light when watching...(something the Zt60 remedies I believe).
post #487 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

Wow I couldn't disagree more. To my eyes, seeing it in person and right next to an F8500, the VT60 looks (and feels, cheap. The V-stand looked good to me in pictures, but in person the material looks really sub-par. The cheap looking silver bezel is also really unfortunate. I was quite surprised.

I imagine the Zt60 will look much better but I'll wait and see. There's of course no accounting for taste, but to me, the F8500 looks way more classy and way more upscale than the Vt60. Of course, I thought the VT50 looked pretty bad too, which was one strike against it for me when shopping last year. And then there's that undefeatable red light when watching...(something the Zt60 remedies I believe).

And those things certainly impact performance of course
post #488 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

And those things certainly impact performance of course

he was only disagreeing with the aesthetics statement, not the performance part as i read it.

my wife aesthetically liked the satin nickel samsungs and LG's most.


I agree that the red light was unfortunate on the vt50....something lightdims (http://www.lightdims.com/) corrected nicely though, but it was an extra 5$ to fix wink.gif
post #489 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

he was only disagreeing with the aesthetics statement, not the performance part as i read it.

my wife aesthetically liked the satin nickel samsungs and LG's most.

And she won in your case I see smile.gif
post #490 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

And she won in your case I see smile.gif

That she did! But the second samsung warranty gave us the runaround on our es and denied that it had issues, she was all in on exchanging for the vt50. Afterwards, we were just so pleased with the enormous difference in uniformity and detail that she even admitted it via spoken words biggrin.gif

I'm grateful for the shootout last year since it led me to the best tv for me.
post #491 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

That she did! But the second samsung warranty gave us the runaround on our es and denied that it had issues, she was all in on exchanging for the vt50. Afterwards, we were just so pleased with the enormous difference in uniformity and detail that she even admitted it via spoken words biggrin.gif

I love the look of the LG LED's but would never buy one smile.gif For me it is build quality and that is a checkmark in Panasonic's favor, perhaps the qc and quality will be different for the 8500 I sure hope so given the high price tag would be a shame for such a great set to be ruined by qc issues.
post #492 of 3096
Agreed. We both thought the LG was best looking. The trim tone of the metal on it matched some of the other trim on the rest of our furniture, but I could never really find a good enough review to get us both on board.
post #493 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I love the look of the LG LED's but would never buy one smile.gif For me it is build quality and that is a checkmark in Panasonic's favor, perhaps the qc and quality will be different for the 8500 I sure hope so given the high price tag would be a shame for such a great set to be ruined by qc issues.

my 1st 8500 had big time uniformity issues, 2nd set however is excellent.
post #494 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

I am not sure that I agree that the F8500 produces a good % of led brightness (but better than all other plasmas), but yes, your other pts are valid.

It absolutely does. I owned an e series LCD for awhile and the F8500 produces a picture that, as far as brightness is concerned, is on par with what the E series LCD put out (when set at anywhere near a reasonable brightness setting). But of course the F8500 adds all the nice PQ factors the LCD couldn't match. It really does give all the brightness one would reasonably expect from an LCD in my experience.
post #495 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

he was only disagreeing with the aesthetics statement, not the performance part as i read it.

my wife aesthetically liked the satin nickel samsungs and LG's most.


I agree that the red light was unfortunate on the vt50....something lightdims (http://www.lightdims.com/) corrected nicely though, but it was an extra 5$ to fix wink.gif

Thanks mo949. Indeed I was simply disagreeing about the aesthetics. Of course I anticipated someone not being able to resist a comment about how aesthetics don't matter on a TV, etc etc. rolleyes.gif

While, of course, PQ is the most important factor, aesthetics are a factor when you put something this big as the centerpiece of your living room. Everything is a factor. How well does it access my NAS? How loud is it (fans, buzz etc)? If it does have a camera, how well does it work? To me, each item has to be weighted and then applied to the overall decision matrix.
Edited by endlessender - 4/29/13 at 11:41am
post #496 of 3096
you are absolutely right, aesthetics are a huge factor for us married people without dedicated man caves wink.gif



as a funny aside, my wife's aesthetics recently made her 'force' me to return the 12" klipsch sub that was "big and ugly". I showed her the Sunfire 1000watt HRS 12 that was only about 13" cube with piano black finish and she immediately told me to go buy that one!

Best transaction yet!
post #497 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

It absolutely does. I owned an e series LCD for awhile and the F8500 produces a picture that, as far as brightness is concerned, is on par with what the E series LCD put out (when set at anywhere near a reasonable brightness setting). But of course the F8500 adds all the nice PQ factors the LCD couldn't match. It really does give all the brightness one would reasonably expect from an LCD in my experience.

I also owned an ES800 for a bit and I have seen compared directly to LCDs. IMO, no, it does not compare.
post #498 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

you are absolutely right, aesthetics are a huge factor for us married people without dedicated man caves wink.gif



as a funny aside, my wife's aesthetics recently made her 'force' me to return the 12" klipsch sub that was "big and ugly". I showed her the Sunfire 1000watt HRS 12 that was only about 13" cube with piano black finish and she immediately told me to go buy that one!

Best transaction yet!

I agree -- the Samsung is a classy looking display (better looking than the VT imo) and your wife forced you to upgrade the sub. I have a Velodyne DD-15+ -- it's kind of big -- boy did I catch flack from the wife but HT must have a good sub.
post #499 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by dad0118 View Post

I also owned an ES800 for a bit and I have seen compared directly to LCDs. IMO, no, it does not compare.

You're saying the F8500 "doesn't compare" to what an ES000 can put out as far as brightness? If so, then I respectfully disagree. The F8500 gets as bright as I would have ever set my ES7500, and then some. Now if we're talking E series on full bore brightness, then perhaps, but when we're talking anything like a remotely desirable setting then it certainly gets just as bright. The F8500 gets bright enough to comfortably watch 3D in the daytime with natural light coming in, so in my estimation it achieves enough of LCD's brightness that it becomes a moot point for most people's scenarios.
post #500 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

you are absolutely right, aesthetics are a huge factor for us married people without dedicated man caves wink.gif



as a funny aside, my wife's aesthetics recently made her 'force' me to return the 12" klipsch sub that was "big and ugly". I showed her the Sunfire 1000watt HRS 12 that was only about 13" cube with piano black finish and she immediately told me to go buy that one!

Best transaction yet!

Aesthetics help when you're about to say "Hey honey, I think I'm going to spend almost 4 grand on a TV. By the way, it's huge, but don't worry...."
post #501 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

I love the look of the LG LED's but would never buy one smile.gif For me it is build quality and that is a checkmark in Panasonic's favor...

You would never buy one because LCD TVs suck, or you would never buy one because you don't trust LG? I haven't had problems with any of the many LG products that I've owned, including my two LG TVs. FWIW, LG finished first in the most recent PCWorld HDTV reliability survey. It finished third in the most recent J.D. Power HDTV reliability survey. It tied with Sony and was not far behind Panasonic and Samsung in the most recent Consumer Reports LCD TV reliability survey. I'm sure there are some people who have had a bad experience with an LG TV, but they are about as reliable as any other brand. If you just meant that none of LG's LCDs are as good as Panasonic plasmas, then I concur. They are nicer to look at when they are turned off, though. And they are better than Panasonic's crappy LCDs.

Go Cardinals. tongue.gif
post #502 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

You're saying the F8500 "doesn't compare" to what an ES000 can put out as far as brightness? If so, then I respectfully disagree. The F8500 gets as bright as I would have ever set my ES7500, and then some. Now if we're talking E series on full bore brightness, then perhaps, but when we're talking anything like a remotely desirable setting then it certainly gets just as bright. The F8500 gets bright enough to comfortably watch 3D in the daytime with natural light coming in, so in my estimation it achieves enough of LCD's brightness that it becomes a moot point for most people's scenarios.

Yes, that is what I was saying - to my eye, I can tell a difference in the max brightness of the F8500 versus an LCD at standard settings. Your interpretation of "bright enough" to be considered LCD equivelent is just different than mine.
post #503 of 3096
Nothing against lg just not an led fan aesthetics Is way down the list for me heck I've known people that bought a tv based on how it looks when it is off

For arguments sake I would contend the vts are good looking sets and if someone else prefers something else I say no worries I don't have to take cheap shots at something I didn't choose to make a point
post #504 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

I wouldnt either, but in order to get those deep blacks they may have had to "sacrifice" somewhere....From the report it would seem to be peak brightness....This means little however to those that were looking for a set in a controlled lighting\dediated theater room....Time will tell and hopefully we get some mroe information in the weeks to come as well as the Shootout....

This is what I think is happening. Every time I crank up the VT60 in a store I cannot even get it to look as bright as my Kuro.....let alone an 8500. For me blacks or not unless I can get it as bright as the Kuro it is not as good of an overall display. Unfortunately, at the shootout you will not see this as every display will be capped in ftl at what..... 32ftl?

I've asked for a bright room shootout so that we can see which displays are versatile and which are not. I hope they do it.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
post #505 of 3096
Seems reasonable. After all people sometimes aren't at work and want to watch tv during the day too, even if not as much as evening.

So they are currently graded at 35 ftl which seems to be appropriate for a lit living room in the evening.

I'd be interested in an ISF day FTL level shootout at say 50ftl as well. It'd be interesting to see how the contrast holds up at those brighter levels to me too as well as grading ABL etc.
post #506 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I've asked for a bright room shootout so that we can see which displays are versatile and which are not. I hope they do it.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

I ahve my doubts that it will happen as all hell will rain down when people start saying who watches this TV during the day? buy some drapes or paint your windows black biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Seems reasonable. After all people sometimes aren't at work and want to watch tv during the day too, even if not as much as evening.

So they are currently graded at 35 ftl which seems to be appropriate for a lit living room in the evening.

I'd be interested in an ISF day FTL level shootout at say 50ftl as well. It'd be interesting to see how the contrast holds up at those brighter levels to me too as well as grading ABL etc.

we also ahve memebers who will be "sharring" this TV so while you may not watch it during the day others might wink.gif

While I think it would be a good test for daytime performance, I dont see it being taken seriously, which is unfortunate IMO...
Edited by Ph8te - 4/29/13 at 4:14pm
post #507 of 3096
ph8te, you make it seem like I don't realize daytime viewing happens. I assure you that the whole tv industry would not be selling their evening timeslots at huge premiums if the great majority didn't watch tv at night. You can see that I would be interested in the numbers and would take them seriously, although I'd have to weight it for evening viewing as would most. In my case I'm 'lucky' since I don't think my family cares about 50FTL performance as much as I would biggrin.gif

bring on the THX bright room shootout biggrin.gif


also, I feel like I left out another group, gamers; lot of daytime and nighttime gamers. For versatility they should also include input lag.
Edited by mo949 - 4/29/13 at 4:14pm
post #508 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

ph8te, you make it seem like I don't realize daytime viewing happens. I assure you that the whole tv industry would not be selling their evening timeslots at huge premiums if the great majority didn't watch tv at night. You can see that I would be interested in the numbers and would take them seriously, although I'd have to weight it for evening viewing as would most. In my case I'm 'lucky' since I don't think my family cares about 50FTL performance as much as I would biggrin.gif

bring on the THX bright room shootout biggrin.gif


also, I feel like I left out another group, gamers; lot of daytime and nighttime gamers. For versatility they should also include input lag.

oh no, I was agreeing with you, the you was not you persoanlly. I just know the mentality of some people here,and that daytime viewing and TV brightness is scoffed at as "whats the point" wink.gifbiggrin.gif

I would agree gamers should be included, but those tests are harder to do IMO (just look at the ST60 lag thread).....

The mroe data points the better decision someone can make when buying a TV so Im all for it smile.gif
post #509 of 3096
aww the good ole rhetorical....that one never translates right. ok gotcha now smile.gif

I agree though, it'd be best to make it really versatile instead of just catering to the majority. I know that input lag would be a phenomenal one to add. From my relatively short tenure here, I've seen so many more people complain about how hard it is to compare input lag between sets, than brightness. I'll admit, I hate seeing the discussion go the way of input lag too since its absolutely meaningless to me unless it gets to high enough a number where lip synch issues start to creep in (think LCD) and would rather see the daytime comparison.
post #510 of 3096
I am in agreement with you as the F8500 has a report of god awful input lag, but was playable and thn with game mode activated it improved even more.....So the lag can effect people differently depending on what they are sued to, the equipment they are using, and the gamees they play, where as brightness is much more easily noticeable (for the buying majority).....There is a need for low input lag there is no doubt about that, Im not sure how invested the companies are into making large low lag sets however which are usually the domain of much smaller screens......
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