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F8500.. OR .. ZT60 ????? - Page 33

post #961 of 3096
I do think the F8500 PQ is very alluring in magnolia. But I heard gaming lag performance is better on the VT/ZT.

VT/ZT:

"When assessed with our original lag test measurement method (which uses a CRT and high speed camera), we measured lag as being 23ms."

F8500:

"resulted in a reading of 38ms"


I put 10% down on a 65ZT60.
Edited by ileff - 5/8/13 at 1:21pm
post #962 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

How's the merry-go-round today? Smooth and sunny?eek.gif I'm weak-willed, but I'm trying to stay on the sidelines.

Ive been trying my best to do the same, got sucked back into the vortex today...
post #963 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Ive been trying my best to do the same, got sucked back into the vortex today...

Yes this back and forth certainly does "suck".
post #964 of 3096
My, my, this thread has become F'n hilarious.

Side note: Halimali has become my new favorite member. She's sassy!
post #965 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Big surprise you bought the 8500 and favor it thanks for giving everyone permission to buy what the feel is the best set for them

You are missing the point I was making. People read reviews and come to the conclusion that because a reviewer says one panel is better than the other they should go out and buy the "better" panel. Every BB salesperson I have met says the VT60 is better than the F8500. When I ask why, they say black level. When I say I like the clarity and detail of the F8500 better, they respond the VT60 is better because of the black level. This is where the zombie reference comes in. Read the reviews, all of them emphasize black level and black level seems to be the most important factor in rating one panel over another. I believe there is more to a panel than black level. Just because you bought or favor the VT60 doesn't mean you are a zombie. The other point missed is that one should actually view the panels and make up their own minds. A review is guide, not the authority. This can be difficult for some. I live 4 hours and 200 miles away round trip from any store that has a VT60 and F8500. Neither panel is inexpensive. Before I spend this kind of money on a panel, I want to make sure I know the strengths and weaknesses of each to make an informed buying decision. My comments were constructive, lacking only that I pointed out the positives of the F8500 compared to the VT60. This is the F8500 or ZT60? forum. Since no ZT60s are hanging up in showrooms, the closest reference is the VT60. Others have made comments on the F8500 vs. VT60 in this forum. I just added my two cents. All that really matters is what you think when you finally see the panel you are interested in. Our comments in this forum are totally subjective and are advisory in nature only. The Reds suck, although Pete Rose was a great hitter. Get it?
post #966 of 3096
I think if people go out and look at the two or three models they will be able to make a decision that is right for them. I spent a lot of time with the remotes of the VT60 and F8500 at my local Magnolia BB. It wasn't hard for me to make my decision at all. They both present a picture that is beautiful, but different. I really like how the Panasonic displays a picture. I would highly recommend that people go out and spend some serious time with the models they are considering. If you ask the employees they will work with you and do pretty much whatever you want. They want to sell you a TV, especially one that is over $3000. Magnolia employees are not paid commission so they usually give their honest opinion. They do enjoy talking to people who have an interest in our hobby. Regardless, you should still make your own choice. What is great for one person is not great for everyone. All that really matters at the end of the day is that you are happy with the purchase you make. I have no regrets with my choice at all. I thought I would feel guilty spending so much on a display, but I haven't at all. It really is a wonderful display for me.
post #967 of 3096
Fortunately it doesn't have a limit
post #968 of 3096
^ good advice. I second that the BB employees are very willing to do whatever you want with respect to the tv setup. They clearly were enthusiastic about their trade and the clerk I dealt with was even asking me questions about what ansi contrast was etc. My wife rolled her eyes a bit and then we were done with that part of the discussion biggrin.gif
post #969 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJA05 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

If "Zombie's" prefer reference PQ over any other factor, then I'm one. I want some of you, after the reviews and comparisons are done, to explain to me whether or not the F8500 is more capable than either the VT60 or the ZT60 at displaying blu ray content that is faithful to the source in a typical home movie environment (night/dark). If not, but you prefer a PQ that exaggerates here and there, then fine. It's all about making INFORMED decisions. This problem comes up all of the time in two channel (stereo) hi-end audio. Some simply aren't going to appreciate what, for example, bass is supposed to sound like (fidelity to the recording rather than room boom, etc). Others make the effort to understand, but then make an informed decision to create an experience which is tailored to personal taste.

Interesting perspective. "Faithful to the source" means what, less dither, less ABL intervention? Exaggerates what, bright scenes, or dark scenes? Presumably we could say that a display with a higher MLL is less faithful to the source on dark scenes. My confusion is why a display that has more aggressive ABL intervention in bright scenes and therefore is unable to render the amount of brightness called for in the blu ray isn't less "accurate"?

SJA

The whole true to the source thing is BS in video as well as audio.
post #970 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post

I think if people go out and look at the two or three models they will be able to make a decision that is right for them. I spent a lot of time with the remotes of the VT60 and F8500 at my local Magnolia BB. It wasn't hard for me to make my decision at all. They both present a picture that is beautiful, but different. I really like how the Panasonic displays a picture. I would highly recommend that people go out and spend some serious time with the models they are considering. If you ask the employees they will work with you and do pretty much whatever you want. They want to sell you a TV, especially one that is over $3000. Magnolia employees are not paid commission so they usually give their honest opinion. They do enjoy talking to people who have an interest in our hobby. Regardless, you should still make your own choice. What is great for one person is not great for everyone. All that really matters at the end of the day is that you are happy with the purchase you make. I have no regrets with my choice at all. I thought I would feel guilty spending so much on a display, but I haven't at all. It really is a wonderful display for me.
Good post
post #971 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

My, my, this thread has become F'n hilarious.

Side note: Halimali has become my new favorite member. She's sassy!

Mine too! I really like Halimali a lot.
post #972 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

If "Zombie's" prefer reference PQ over any other factor, then I'm one. I want some of you, after the reviews and comparisons are done, to explain to me whether or not the F8500 is more capable than either the VT60 or the ZT60 at displaying blu ray content that is faithful to the source in a typical home movie environment (night/dark). If not, but you prefer a PQ that exaggerates here and there, then fine. It's all about making INFORMED decisions. This problem comes up all of the time in two channel (stereo) hi-end audio. Some simply aren't going to appreciate what, for example, bass is supposed to sound like (fidelity to the recording rather than room boom, etc). Others make the effort to understand, but then make an informed decision to create an experience which is tailored to personal taste.

What about the F8500 is "exaggerating" the source? I haven't seen or heard of this yet.

I will say one thing:

One knock in the Panny's column, for me, is that they are only displaying half the resolution of a percentage of the screen in 3D blu-ray sources. Half. Is that not significant ? How am I supposed to convince myself that part of the screen being in 540p is being entirely "faithful to the source"? Food for thought. I wish it wasn't the case, but it is. And it's one of those things that once you notice it, you can't not notice it.
post #973 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWD View Post

The whole true to the source thing is BS in video as well as audio.

i wouldn't go that far. smile.gif There is something to be said for accuracy. There is also something to be said for enjoyment. Balance, as in many aspects of life, is key here.
post #974 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post

I think if people go out and look at the two or three models they will be able to make a decision that is right for them. I spent a lot of time with the remotes of the VT60 and F8500 at my local Magnolia BB. It wasn't hard for me to make my decision at all. They both present a picture that is beautiful, but different. I really like how the Panasonic displays a picture. I would highly recommend that people go out and spend some serious time with the models they are considering. If you ask the employees they will work with you and do pretty much whatever you want. They want to sell you a TV, especially one that is over $3000. Magnolia employees are not paid commission so they usually give their honest opinion. They do enjoy talking to people who have an interest in our hobby. Regardless, you should still make your own choice. What is great for one person is not great for everyone. All that really matters at the end of the day is that you are happy with the purchase you make. I have no regrets with my choice at all. I thought I would feel guilty spending so much on a display, but I haven't at all. It really is a wonderful display for me.

The BB and Magnolia sales folk have been very accommodating to me and very patient. I sincerely appreciate that.

I will say though that knowledge is all over the map. And like all retail sales people of technology they can be heavily influenced by their local rep. Some reps are good at gaining mind-share (shall we say).
post #975 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

This TV holds itself extremely well in such a bright condition, the black and colors are not washed out, totally not. Wish you could post Panasonic plasmas in the same condition to see how dim and dull they are.
Thank u very much for reconfirming what I have in mind smile.gif

Correct-amundo!

Although the anti-glare filter is very good, it's not a matte screen and it shows glare, that's for sure, but it's how well the picture holds up that is so impressive. Mine is in a great room with a wall made up entirely of sliding glass doors and although the sun does not come directly in, it shines off the pool water and the room is full of reflected light during the day. The F8500 picture is very solid and clear in this environment, from all angles and distances. It's a wonderful feature of the set...you don't have to pull the blinds to enjoy a really nice picture smile.gif
post #976 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubusduck View Post

You are missing the point I was making. People read reviews and come to the conclusion that because a reviewer says one panel is better than the other they should go out and buy the "better" panel. Every BB salesperson I have met says the VT60 is better than the F8500. When I ask why, they say black level. When I say I like the clarity and detail of the F8500 better, they respond the VT60 is better because of the black level. This is where the zombie reference comes in. Read the reviews, all of them emphasize black level and black level seems to be the most important factor in rating one panel over another. I believe there is more to a panel than black level. Just because you bought or favor the VT60 doesn't mean you are a zombie. The other point missed is that one should actually view the panels and make up their own minds. A review is guide, not the authority. This can be difficult for some. I live 4 hours and 200 miles away round trip from any store that has a VT60 and F8500. Neither panel is inexpensive. Before I spend this kind of money on a panel, I want to make sure I know the strengths and weaknesses of each to make an informed buying decision. My comments were constructive, lacking only that I pointed out the positives of the F8500 compared to the VT60. This is the F8500 or ZT60? forum. Since no ZT60s are hanging up in showrooms, the closest reference is the VT60. Others have made comments on the F8500 vs. VT60 in this forum. I just added my two cents. All that really matters is what you think when you finally see the panel you are interested in. Our comments in this forum are totally subjective and are advisory in nature only. The Reds suck, although Pete Rose was a great hitter. Get it?

Like it or not he brings up a good point. Black level isn't everything, but talking to some people you'd think it is. We all know it's heavily important - of course. Judging that we're all buying plasmas here I think that's a given that we can all agree on.

But there's no meter or metric for clarity (that I know of). 3D is not factored in to the overall rating enough IMO (hell only one reviewer even seems to mention single-line scan). How well does it perform motion smoothing? And then there are all the other factors (buzz, aesthetics, digital media playback performance, video processing on less than ideal sources, etc). Judging a TV almost solely on how well it shows blacks on a 2D blu-ray source is narrow-minded in my opinion. Obviously if that's all you watch that's one thing, but for me I watch DirecTV and Blu-Ray in both 2D and 3D and I watch streaming media, etc. I can't be the only one. I think we'd all do well to take into account the wide variety of various people's viewing needs and desires and dispense with some of the traditional purism.
post #977 of 3096
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)









Personally do not care which manufacturer has the best display so long as it is a quality one that will last many years.
My preference lies with the display with the best black level -which is the bases for contrast image fidelity, shadow detail, color accuracy, detail fidelity, and motion reproduction.

I do not have a 'batcave' but my display has been plenty bright and it competes with a lot of natural light. At least for me light output is not overly concerning, although the ZT seems to be potentially dim even for my scenario and viewing habits.

It is interesting the polar opposite stances on what is important for picture quality given these two displays current numbers.

Hopefully the big VE shootout will provide a definitive answer to which display is the top dog.

Best Regards
KvE
Edited by KMFDMvsEnya - 5/8/13 at 4:32pm
post #978 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)









Personally do not care which manufacturer has the best display so long as it is a quality one that will last many years.
My preference lies with the display with the best black level -which is the bases for contrast image fidelity, shadow detail, color accuracy, detail fidelity, and motion reproduction.

I do not have a 'batcave' but my display has been plenty bright and it competes with a lot of natural light. At least for me light output is not overly concerning, although the ZT seems to be potentially dim even for my scenario and view habits.

It is interesting the polar opposite stances on what is important for picture quality given these two displays current numbers.

Hopefully the big VE shootout will provide a definitive answer to which display is the top dog.

Best Regards
KvE

How about Sony HX950? It's not plasma but it has the best black level, which is what you are looking for.....smile.gif
post #979 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubusduck View Post

You are missing the point I was making. People read reviews and come to the conclusion that because a reviewer says one panel is better than the other they should go out and buy the "better" panel. Every BB salesperson I have met says the VT60 is better than the F8500. When I ask why, they say black level. When I say I like the clarity and detail of the F8500 better, they respond the VT60 is better because of the black level. This is where the zombie reference comes in.

Interestingly, almost all of the Magnolia guys I've spoken to prefer the 8500, and not marginally either. The typical response I get is "I've never seen a picture like that on a plasma, it smokes the VT60". It's interesting your guys say the opposite. I think the guys I've met aren't 'zombified' into thinking only a bit better black levels make one display superior to another.

Most of them simply say 'look at the picture, adjust them any way you want'. But again, if extracting that last piece of MLL reigns supreme, than the ZT60 is the choice. I'm still curious to see how the ABL compares as well as its overall brightness.
post #980 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by endlessender View Post

What about the F8500 is "exaggerating" the source? I haven't seen or heard of this yet.

Here's one thing you almost never see discussed. Everyone here talks blacks blacks blacks. But relatively speaking, when a signal asks the screen to display large expanses of white or something bright (a high APL), how about that kind of accuracy? Does that not count? This speaks to a display's dynamic range. Can it achieve those peak white values while still getting deep blacks. Yeah, ANSI partly responds to that, but IMO not totally. It still doesn't account for how much of a screen's white needs to be called upon before that screen throttles back.

IMO there's accuracy here too. If I have a display that can register really deep blacks, but just can't accurately display large expanses of white, is that accurate? I'm sorry, I absolutely, positively don't subscribe to the fact that the upper regions of the scale don't count. It aint just about black IMO. smile.gif
post #981 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post

How about Sony HX950? It's not plasma but it has the best black level, which is what you are looking for.....smile.gif

Oh boy, now you've gone and done it! You better run for cover...fast!!!!!! biggrin.gif
post #982 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJA05 View Post

Interesting perspective. "Faithful to the source" means what, less dither, less ABL intervention? Exaggerates what, bright scenes, or dark scenes? Presumably we could say that a display with a higher MLL is less faithful to the source on dark scenes. My confusion is why a display that has more aggressive ABL intervention in bright scenes and therefore is unable to render the amount of brightness called for in the blu ray isn't less "accurate"?

SJA

More logic? No room for that. Cut it out. We only discuss black levels here, no room for discussing other aspects of PQ...and certainly not the accuracy of bright scenes. wink.gif

The analogy I've been thinking about is frequency response in audio. We have a high end and a low end. For accurate sound reproduction, we need to be faithful to both ends of the spectrum. A speaker that accurately reproduces the low end, but can't hit the highs, can sound a bit 'muddy'...or maybe a lot muddy. One that hits the highs, but can't hit the lows, can sound too bright (no pun intended).

So if the lows are blacks and the highs are whites, this gets back to what I said in my other post, a display needs to accurately reproduce both. Dynamic range. Dynamic range. wink.gif
post #983 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Interestingly, almost all of the Magnolia guys I've spoken to prefer the 8500, and not marginally either. The typical response I get is "I've never seen a picture like that on a plasma, it smokes the VT60". It's interesting your guys say the opposite. I think the guys I've met aren't 'zombified' into thinking only a bit better black levels make one display superior to another.

Most of them simply say 'look at the picture, adjust them any way you want'. But again, if extracting that last piece of MLL reigns supreme, than the ZT60 is the choice. I'm still curious to see how the ABL compares as well as its overall brightness.

Ken, I've been to 3 different Magnolias and they all said the same thing. I was starting to wonder if they are pushing the VT60 over the F8500. I don't know why they would since they should be neutral representing both mfg. Both are being sold for the same price too. I respect their opinion, but disagree. Anyway, I would really like to see how the ZT60 looks compared to the F8500. BTW, the Elite looked very good, but I'm now a plasma convert plus both the VT60 and the F8500 come with internet streaming, a built in camer and skype. This is important to my wife and she skypes and watches shows online through a Russian version of facebook. Had the Elite come with a built in camera and the latest generation of web browsing, I would have made a deal with Magnolia and bought their 60" display Elite. I would really like to hear your impression of the Elite as I think you own one from the posts I've seen. Moreover, regardless of one's feelings, the latest generation of plasmas are top notch and do not give anything significant to 4K. Live long and prosper plasma!
post #984 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Oh boy, now you've gone and done it! You better run for cover...fast!!!!!! biggrin.gif

Yep, I think I opened up a can of worms! biggrin.gif lmao
post #985 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubusduck View Post

Ken, I've been to 3 different Magnolias and they all said the same thing. I was starting to wonder if they are pushing the VT60 over the F8500. I don't know why they would since they should be neutral representing both mfg. Both are being sold for the same price too. I respect their opinion, but disagree. Anyway, I would really like to see how the ZT60 looks compared to the F8500. BTW, the Elite looked very good, but I'm now a plasma convert plus both the VT60 and the F8500 come with internet streaming, a built in camer and skype. This is important to my wife and she skypes and watches shows online through a Russian version of facebook. Had the Elite come with a built in camera and the latest generation of web browsing, I would have made a deal with Magnolia and bought their 60" display Elite. I would really like to hear your impression of the Elite as I think you own one from the posts I've seen. Moreover, regardless of one's feelings, the latest generation of plasmas are top notch and do not give anything significant to 4K. Live long and prosper plasma!

It is interesting with the Magnolia guys. Let me say this, I agree with those that say these guys get a bum rap. I've seen a dramatic improvement in their knowledge base over the last several years. We're a long way away from when I remember hearing a BB guy say to a customer "Yeah, but you'll have to fill that plasma with gas in a few years". Yup, I did hear that as have others. Today, most of these guys are either fairly knowledgeable or surprisingly knowledgeable and almost all are very helpful. We have one Magnolia Mgr (actually more than one, but one that I know out here on L.I.), that posts here and is a very knowledgeable guy who makes a concerted effort to properly adjust his displays. Unfortunately his store has a defective F8500 that they're getting replaced.

As for the Elite, yup, if that last production run of 70" Elites hadn't gone south, I would have bought one in a heartbeat. I still think, on-axis, the Elite puts out the best picture I've ever seen. Bar none. It's greatest weakness, IMO, is off-axis viewing. It's pretty poor. Yeah, you'll hear all the talk about color accuracy, but I bet you didn't see anything that made you think the colors you saw were inaccurate. But for black levels, the ability to produce exceptional full-screen brightness and its overall PQ, the display is just stunning.

With that said, in the world of plasmas, I'm finding the F8500 comes damn close to the Elite...more than I ever thought a plasma could. At the same time the viewing angles are broad in the way plasmas typically are. Yeah, the blacks are not quite as black as the Elite, but for all intents and purposes, the brightness is in the ballpark, certainly the ballpark I typically have my calibrated Elite at and the sharpness is right there too. It's the only plasma I've seen thus far that wouldn't make me depressed that I can't get that new Elite. It's the best all-around performer I see in today's market.

What do I miss with the F8500? Well, contrary to what many think about LED and motion handling, I still find the Elite's motion handling to be better than any plasma. The judder of a plasma is quite a bit different than how my eyes see rapid motion. The Elite comes much closer. I never see a staccato effect with my own eyes when viewing fast paced motion. Do you? I'd much rather have a bit of blurring as opposed to that staccato effect of judder. I should add that I hate the SOE, so I'll have none of that in an attempt to smooth motion. But you do get used to it as I did with my Kuro and Fujitsus.

So barring an upset (as far as my eyes are concerned) and the ZT exhibiting a less aggressive ABL behavior than the VT, and an overall improved apparent sharpness over the VT, I'm leaning pretty heavily at this point toward the 8500.
post #986 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post

Yep, I think I opened up a can of worms! biggrin.gif lmao
Nah, I just prefer the black levels plasma can provide without the artifacts introduced by full array sets (namely blooming, less than ideal viewing angles).
post #987 of 3096
Hmm, let's see, ABL-Minimal blooming-ABL-Minimal Blooming....OK, I'll take minimal blooming. The best full arrays have very very little blooming. Most plasmas ABL, IR, buzzing...not so much.
post #988 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Side note: Halimali has become my new favorite member. She's sassy!

Yea sure...it might also like her because she's cute and the only girl on the site tongue.gif
post #989 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubby497 View Post

Yep, I think I opened up a can of worms! biggrin.gif lmao
Nah, I just prefer the black levels plasma can provide without the artifacts introduced by full array sets (namely blooming, less than ideal viewing angles).

I was always amazed that sitting on either side if a love seat could wash out the opposite side of the screen from 12 ft back - I don't know how they thought that was acceptable.
post #990 of 3096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I was always amazed that sitting on either side if a love seat could wash out the opposite side of the screen from 12 ft back - I don't know how they thought that was acceptable.


Well, the same way as if you have a really bright room you wouldn't buy a plasma.....except the 8500. Each type of display has it's compromises.
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