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Subwoofer for music - under $200 - Page 2

post #31 of 75
Graphicism, based on your last comment, it seems you're wanting way too much out of way too little as it seems you're wanting dual 15" subwoofer performance in a single 8" or 10" configuration and if I'm understanding your comments correctly, it makes it hard to give realistic recommendations. And based on your above, yes, by all means, speed ahead with a $500.00 subwoofer but before committing to a purchase, one needs to realistically state to themselves, what their expectations are out of the subwoofer purchase, they're about to make.

So my question to you, considering your comments about no bass management capabilities, what are your realistic expectations out of this subwoofer purchase?

Everything you post tells me that you'll be best served by augmenting your speaker's capabilities with a pair smaller subs, connected at the high level (binding post level), opposed to trying to pump up the bass as a singular entity in your sound reproduction system.

If you go with a single sub solution in the $500.00 range, look to a SVS, PB-1000 or a Rythmik, LV12R. For your room, you'll have more then enough bass out of a single subwoofer to fill your room. For your situation, I really feel you'll be happier with two subs.

Subwoofers are a terrible thing to have to choose among as no matter what choice one makes, at these price points, there are always going be price/performance compromises to be made. You'll always worry about having made the right decision. There is no pat recommendation.

Price.

Performance.

Size.

At this level, there are always compromises and each of these compromises are always going be less than ideal and will always leave the individual wishing/wanting more. At this level, trying to make a subwoofer choice is like a subwoofer version of Abbott and Costello's "Who's On First" as you're always trying to beat the price and not compromise on quality as the person playing the "make a choice" game always ends back at first base.

The point, there is no right or perfect choice and there's only the frustration of knowing you want more but budget/room/size constraints always limit you to less then what you want; first base.

In the end, at this level, know that doubt is the final outcome and all one can do is make a choice and live within the limitations of the choice or not make a choice at all and do without the benefit of a subwoofer; first base.
post #32 of 75
I'm in a similar situation. I've picked up a pair of speakers to possibly replace my current speakers but the new ones only go down to a -3dB point of 80Hz whereas the current ones go down to 45Hz. I'm enjoying everything from 80Hz on up more than I do with my current speakers but that missing 40Hz is killing me.

My room is a similar size (10x12x9) and has soffit bass traps all around the room along with superchunks floor to ceiling in the front corners, all stuffed with Roxul Safe & Sound.

I gave myself a budget of $200 as well and picked up a Pioneer SW-8mk2 yesterday for $160. I spent some time last night trying to dial it in but so far haven't gotten it to my satisfaction.

Like you, I'm running L/R RCA outs of my DAC which serves as my preamp to the sub.

Bill
post #33 of 75
In advance, my apologies for being a buzz-kill but my recommendation, if you can, return the Pioneer subwoofer and buy something with more substance to it.

At Parts-Express, you can buy a Dayton, Sub-1200 that will give you much deeper response than the Pioneer, SW-8mk2. And if you can swing it, buy two. Just wanting to see you get the best bang for your subwoofer bucks.
post #34 of 75
Thanks for the recommendation. The other issue I can see is the sub affecting my turntable.
post #35 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_B4 View Post

Thanks for the recommendation. The other issue I can see is the sub affecting my turntable.

If from vibrations, for isolation, maybe a foam/rubber pad or mount the turntable on coiled springs?
post #36 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Graphicism, based on your last comment, it seems you're wanting way too much out of way too little as it seems you're wanting dual 15" subwoofer performance in a single 8" or 10" configuration and if I'm understanding your comments correctly, it makes it hard to give realistic recommendations. And based on your above, yes, by all means, speed ahead with a $500.00 subwoofer but before committing to a purchase, one needs to realistically state to themselves, what their expectations are out of the subwoofer purchase, they're about to make.

So my question to you, considering your comments about no bass management capabilities, what are your realistic expectations out of this subwoofer purchase?

...

Thank you for the detailed reply.

Well first and foremost I'm looking for accuracy, I don't care about the theatrical sound, I want flat. I would like to be able to listen to an acoustic performance and not even hear the sub-woofer until the bass guitar or drums hit... I know some systems are bass-heavy no matter what you're playing and I do not want that. I listen to a lot of genres, from Chemical Brothers to Bach and where possible would like accuracy.

I also listen relatively quietly throughout the day, I work from home and this is for my home office, I listen to music on average 10-hours a day. If it were an option to find a sub that didn't annoy someone in the next room that would be perfect, but maybe slightly unrealistic. Can I get accuracy with an 8" sub that perhaps wouldn't rumble like a 12" ~ if this affects the accuracy then it becomes moot.

The sub-woofer must also work seamlessly with my current DAC and speakers.

I should also mention that while a $200 sub-woofer would easily pass the wife-factor I am willing to spend upwards of $4,5,600 if necessary.
post #37 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

Thank you for the detailed reply.

Well first and foremost I'm looking for accuracy, I don't care about the theatrical sound, I want flat. I would like to be able to listen to an acoustic performance and not even hear the sub-woofer until the bass guitar or drums hit... I know some systems are bass-heavy no matter what you're playing and I do not want that. I listen to a lot of genres, from Chemical Brothers to Bach and where possible would like accuracy.

I also listen relatively quietly throughout the day, I work from home and this is for my home office, I listen to music on average 10-hours a day. If it were an option to find a sub that didn't annoy someone in the next room that would be perfect, but maybe slightly unrealistic. Can I get accuracy with an 8" sub that perhaps wouldn't rumble like a 12" ~ if this affects the accuracy then it becomes moot.

The sub-woofer must also work seamlessly with my current DAC and speakers.

I should also mention that while a $200 sub-woofer would easily pass the wife-factor I am willing to spend upwards of $4,5,600 if necessary.

Perceived flat performance is extremely iffy. Room acoustics have such a big impact on subwoofer performance, that you'll probably need a good bit of luck to get flat performance. Unless you use an EQ on the sub.

Starting out with a sub that performs flat on open ground plane measurements will probably help. Both HSU and Outlaw Audio are known for being fairly truthful with their measurements, so either of their 8" subs could be a good choice if your main goal is nearfield listening and/or the room is fairly small. If you want better accuracy and a little more max output, I'd go with the SVS SB-1000. Plus, as I mentioned before, the built in 80hz high pass filter is a nice option to have. I've listened to the Airmotiv 4s, and I would imagine that the SB-1000 could do better below 80hz, assuming room acoustic issues don't favor the Airmotivs from 80hz down to where they start to roll off.
post #38 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Perceived flat performance is extremely iffy. Room acoustics have such a big impact on subwoofer performance, that you'll probably need a good bit of luck to get flat performance. Unless you use an EQ on the sub.

Starting out with a sub that performs flat on open ground plane measurements will probably help. Both HSU and Outlaw Audio are known for being fairly truthful with their measurements, so either of their 8" subs could be a good choice if your main goal is nearfield listening and/or the room is fairly small. If you want better accuracy and a little more max output, I'd go with the SVS SB-1000. Plus, as I mentioned before, the built in 80hz high pass filter is a nice option to have. I've listened to the Airmotiv 4s, and I would imagine that the SB-1000 could do better below 80hz, assuming room acoustic issues don't favor the Airmotivs from 80hz down to where they start to roll off.

Perhaps flat is the wrong word, I just don't want bloat. I'm looking for a balanced HD800 sound, not a bass-forward D5000 sound. wink.gif

This is for a near-field environment, as I say the speakers are almost within touching distance. The sub-woofer, sizer permitting, can go anywhere.

When the Airmotiv 4s attempt deep-bass it's tonally flat; the majority of mid-bass is good and impactful, however if I can take this off my desk completely that would surely improve the sound. There is an entire octave missing and that's ultimately what I'm searching for, as opposed to a separate thump in the corner.

EDIT: I see that the Klipsch Reference RW-12d is back on sale, I just don't know if it would be very musical in my 1000cu room.
Edited by Graphicism - 5/2/13 at 2:57pm
post #39 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

Perhaps flat is the wrong word, I just don't want bloat. I'm looking for a balanced HD800 sound, not a bass-forward D5000 sound. wink.gif

This is for a near-field environment, as I say the speakers are almost within touching distance. The sub-woofer, sizer permitting, can go anywhere.

When the Airmotiv 4s attempt deep-bass it's tonally flat; the majority of mid-bass is good and impactful, however if I can take this off my desk completely that would surely improve the sound. There is an entire octave missing and that's ultimately what I'm searching for, as opposed to a separate thump in the corner.

EDIT: I see that the Klipsch Reference RW-12d is back on sale, I just don't know if it would be very musical in my 1000cu room.

I don't think the room size has anything to do with it. The RW-12d is not known for being a musical sub. It's known for having great extension and output, with decent SQ for it's price compared to other 12" subs.

I haven't heard the HD800 or D5000, but if you want the bass accuracy of at least the DT880 or the D2000 (without the extra emphasis, of course), then I think you have to get something better.
post #40 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

Thank you for the detailed reply.

biggrin.gif
Quote:
Well first and foremost I'm looking for accuracy, I don't care about the theatrical sound, I want flat.


That's a factor of EQ'g a room's acoustics and not a straight forward function of the chosen subwoofer.

Quote:
I would like to be able to listen to an acoustic performance and not even hear the sub-woofer until the bass guitar or drums hit... I know some systems are bass-heavy no matter what you're playing and I do not want that. I listen to a lot of genres, from Chemical Brothers to Bach and where possible would like accuracy.

Again a function of EQ'g as opposed to choice of subwoofer.

Quote:
I also listen relatively quietly throughout the day, I work from home and this is for my home office, I listen to music on average 10-hours a day. If it were an option to find a sub that didn't annoy someone in the next room that would be perfect, but maybe slightly unrealistic. Can I get accuracy with an 8" sub that perhaps wouldn't rumble like a 12" ~ if this affects the accuracy then it becomes moot.

Again a function of EQ'g the system as opposed to the choice one makes in subwoofers.

Quote:
The sub-woofer must also work seamlessly with my current DAC and speakers.

Again with EQ'g the system to blend with the room's acoustics.

Quote:
I should also mention that while a $200 sub-woofer would easily pass the wife-factor I am willing to spend upwards of $4,5,600 if necessary.

Based on the above, I'd check into a miniDSP, an appropriate EQ module and REW.

Based on your above, it's time to get your feet really, really wet as the answer you seek is found deep in the weeds.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 5/2/13 at 5:52pm
post #41 of 75
Take it from another head-fi member (Joe Bloggs), Beeman has got it right when it cones to EQing. I bought a Mirage Omni-S10, (10") it measured relatively flat in an independent review, yet in my room I'm measuring a 24dB peak at 33Hz, among other irregularities. Most of the recommendations in this thread should work, as long as you budget for a measurement mic and are prepared to EQ your system to flat. Once you get some measurements in you would find that your room makes a mockery of whatever claims of fidelity or flat response your speakers and sub make.

Since you are using PC as source you can EQ using the PC directly, I would detail how when I get to type on something other than a phone wink.gif
post #42 of 75
Thread Starter 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that when you refer to a sub being musical you are likely regarding it's accuracy. If a sub is not musical this likely means it has bloat, and is not accurate.

@cel4145
Perhaps using headphones for analogy doesn't work; I consider the DT880 and D2000 very very different. The D2000 are hugely inacurate, lots of bass-bloat and tonaly inaccurate. The DT880 on the other hand, or head, are exactly what I'm looking for in a subwoofer; great extension with great accuracy, no bloat.

@BeeMan458
Coming from a world of headphones where EQing is considered taboo this is a little disheartening, at the same time I do understand we're dealing with a different beast. You're almost saying any sub-woofer will do as long as you EQ, however earlier on you mentioned a sealed sub for accuracy. I will EQ through my computer and use my ears as a guide. As far as what sub-woofer to start with; are the differences between say a good sealed sub and a cheap front ported sub so close it's almost a moot point as long as you EQ?

@Joe0Bloggs
I will EQ via the PC but acquiring measuring equipment is taking it a little too far for my simple liking.


Edit: Just thought I'd mention I'll be using an isolation pad to cut down on vibrations.
Edited by Graphicism - 5/2/13 at 9:32pm
post #43 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

@BeeMan458
Coming from a world of headphones where EQing is considered taboo this is a little disheartening, at the same time I do understand we're dealing with a different beast. You're almost saying any sub-woofer will do as long as you EQ, however earlier on you mentioned a sealed sub for accuracy. I will EQ through my computer and use my ears as a guide. As far as what sub-woofer to start with; are the differences between say a good sealed sub and a cheap front ported sub so close it's almost a moot point as long as you EQ?

@Joe0Bloggs
I will EQ via the PC but acquiring measuring equipment is taking it a little too far for my simple liking.


Edit: Just thought I'd mention I'll be using an isolation pad to cut down on vibrations.

Hey, there's a team EQ on head-fi too, I'm its founding member wink.gif

EQ for headphones is hard since the measurements involved are too intricate for almost any casual member of the public to carry out, but for loudspeakers, you just get this mic
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html
Put it on a mic stand where you sit, plug it into your computer via USB and fire away.

There are complete measurement packages like Room EQ Wizard, but all I did so far was generate a log sweep in Audacity (free audio editor), record the output using the measurement mic, and view the output waveform on dB scale instead of linear scale. Bam, instant frequency response graph for your system in 3 minutes. It's simple smile.gif
post #44 of 75
Just in case you need any more motivation here's the uncorrected frequency response for my right channel:


I wasn't kidding when I said there's a *24dB* peak at 33Hz... (the highest part of the graph)

Now imagine trying to sus out this response using your ears.
post #45 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

Hey, there's a team EQ on head-fi too, I'm its founding member wink.gif

EQ for headphones is hard since the measurements involved are too intricate for almost any casual member of the public to carry out, but for loudspeakers, you just get this mic
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html
Put it on a mic stand where you sit, plug it into your computer via USB and fire away.

There are complete measurement packages like Room EQ Wizard, but all I did so far was generate a log sweep in Audacity (free audio editor), record the output using the measurement mic, and view the output waveform on dB scale instead of linear scale. Bam, instant frequency response graph for your system in 3 minutes. It's simple smile.gif

The only headphones I've had to EQ have been the wildly inaccurate ones; XB500, D2000 and the likes. I would imagine this translates into sub-woofers, the more bloat a sub has the more EQ it will need. Do you use an isolation pad? This alone would cut down on the majority of inaccuracies you're collecting from your room.
post #46 of 75
Perhaps the DT2000 were a bad choice. I've only heard them briefly. I'm more familiar with the DT880s. If you want that level of bass SQ, better look elsewhere than the RW-12d.
post #47 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

The only headphones I've had to EQ have been the wildly inaccurate ones; XB500, D2000 and the likes. I would imagine this translates into sub-woofers, the more bloat a sub has the more EQ it will need. Do you use an isolation pad? This alone would cut down on the majority of inaccuracies you're collecting from your room.

I've been here for awhile and haven't seen anybody tout an isolation pad as a cure all for room response problems. To solve these problems acoustically you're looking at big imposing bass traps, bass is the hardest part of the spectrum to treat with room treatments.

The bigger question is, what do you have to lose by EQing? Digital EQ is lossless, and by EQing down peaks you are naturally reducing the dominance of resonant frequencies in the room, the result will always be a cleaner sound. The only reason EQ is not hip with headphones is because people don't have a standard to reference against (you can't stick measurement mics in your ears and even if you could, flat response at the ear is not the goal. The actual goal is somewhere within erudite tomes of psychoacoustics) With speakers, a simple measurement mic shows the way to your goal in 3 minutes and EQing for it will yield definite improvements no matter how well treated your room is.
Edited by Joe0Bloggs - 5/2/13 at 10:41pm
post #48 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

I've been here for awhile and haven't seen anybody tout an isolation pad as a cure all for room response problems. To solve these problems acoustically you're looking at big imposing bass traps, bass is the hardest part of the spectrum to treat with room treatments.

The bigger question is, what do you have to lose by EQing? Digital EQ is lossless, and by EQing down peaks you are naturally reducing the dominance of resonant frequencies in the room, the result will always be a cleaner sound. The only reason EQ is not hip with headphones is because people don't have a standard to reference against (you can't stick measurement mics in your ears and even if you could, flat response at the ear is not the goal. The actual goal is somewhere within erudite tomes of psychoacoustics) With speakers, a simple measurement mic shows the way to your goal in 3 minutes and EQing for it will yield definite improvements no matter how well treated your room is.

An isolation pad likely won't cure everything, but you're essentially removing a wall. From the reviews people say they cut down so much on vibration that they can hardly hear the sub-woofer in the next room or even in the room directly under. With this in mind removing this direct vibration with the ground would surely make an impact to your results.

In regards to headphone the general vibe is if you need to EQ you have the wrong headphone.
post #49 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

I've been here for awhile and haven't seen anybody tout an isolation pad as a cure all for room response problems. To solve these problems acoustically you're looking at big imposing bass traps, bass is the hardest part of the spectrum to treat with room treatments.

The bigger question is, what do you have to lose by EQing? Digital EQ is lossless, and by EQing down peaks you are naturally reducing the dominance of resonant frequencies in the room, the result will always be a cleaner sound. The only reason EQ is not hip with headphones is because people don't have a standard to reference against (you can't stick measurement mics in your ears and even if you could, flat response at the ear is not the goal. The actual goal is somewhere within erudite tomes of psychoacoustics) With speakers, a simple measurement mic shows the way to your goal in 3 minutes and EQing for it will yield definite improvements no matter how well treated your room is.

An isolation pad likely won't cure everything, but you're essentially removing a wall. From the reviews people say they cut down so much on vibration that they can hardly hear the sub-woofer in the next room or even in the room directly under. With this in mind removing this direct vibration with the ground would surely make an impact to your results.

In regards to headphone the general vibe is if you need to EQ you have the wrong headphone.

An isolation pad is not likely to do a damn thing. People say a lot of things.
post #50 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that when you refer to a sub being musical you are likely regarding it's accuracy. If a sub is not musical this likely means it has bloat, and is not accurate.

Quote:
@BeeMan458Coming from a world of headphones where EQing is considered taboo this is a little disheartening, at the same time I do understand we're dealing with a different beast. You're almost saying any sub-woofer will do as long as you EQ, however earlier on you mentioned a sealed sub for accuracy. I will EQ through my computer and use my ears as a guide. As far as what sub-woofer to start with; are the differences between say a good sealed sub and a cheap front ported sub so close it's almost a moot point as long as you EQ?

The above seems to be out of context.

The world I come from, where I post regarding heaphone EQ'g being taboo, I'm posting regarding a flat listening response line vs boosting bass/treble and no added DSP to color the sound quality (listening fatigue) vs EQ'g the integration of a subwoofer into a room's acoustics. Although both qualify as EQ'g, these are two different sonic animals.

Could you post where the comment came from and what you're trying to show with the above quote as I'm not sure the point you're trying to make?

FWIW, via headphones, I listen using Sennheiser, HD-650 headphones, custom headphone cables, a XONAR, Essence STX sound card, using an upgraded power supply. The DAC is a Stello, DA100, Signature and the headphone amplifier is a Burson Audio, HA-160.

You might consider a better set of headphones for your computer listening needs. And yes, for computer listening purposes, in my opinion, a set of Sennheiser, HD-650's makes a noticeable difference in bass reproduction over less expensive headphones.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 5/3/13 at 5:44am
post #51 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

An isolation pad likely won't cure everything, but you're essentially removing a wall.
You're not removing anything.
Quote:
From the reviews people say they cut down so much on vibration that they can hardly hear the sub-woofer in the next room or even in the room directly under.
In a word, hogwash. 100% of the vibration caused by subwoofers is acoustically sourced, caused by the floor, walls and ceiling resonating in response to the 12 to 60 foot long wavelengths they produce. Isolation devices do nothing to reduce, let along stop, those resonances. They are very effective in generating Placebo Effect.
post #52 of 75
Hmmm...I've got a DEQ2496 lying around doing nothing...

Looks like I'll be futzing around with REW this weekend to see what I need to do.

Bill
post #53 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe0Bloggs View Post

I've been here for awhile and haven't seen anybody tout an isolation pad as a cure all for room response problems. To solve these problems acoustically you're looking at big imposing bass traps, bass is the hardest part of the spectrum to treat with room treatments.

The bigger question is, what do you have to lose by EQing? Digital EQ is lossless, and by EQing down peaks you are naturally reducing the dominance of resonant frequencies in the room, the result will always be a cleaner sound. The only reason EQ is not hip with headphones is because people don't have a standard to reference against (you can't stick measurement mics in your ears and even if you could, flat response at the ear is not the goal. The actual goal is somewhere within erudite tomes of psychoacoustics) With speakers, a simple measurement mic shows the way to your goal in 3 minutes and EQing for it will yield definite improvements no matter how well treated your room is.

Agreed. There's also the cheaper--but takes much longer--method of using a SPL meter and plotting it out by hand. Works as long as there are calibration adjustments available.
post #54 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Agreed. There's also the cheaper--but takes much longer--method of using a SPL meter and plotting it out by hand. Works as long as there are calibration adjustments available.

That doesn't really work as long as you're using sine tones for your plotting. When the amplitude response for 1000Hz and, say, 1005Hz can differ by several dB, then it's little better than moving the graphic EQ at random if you think you can take the label frequencies of your graphic EQ, say 31, 62, 125, 250, 500, 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k and play sine tones at just those frequencies and adjust the graphic EQ sliders accordingly. Probably one of those things that gave EQ a bad name, really rolleyes.gif
post #55 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


The above seems to be out of context.

The world I come from, where I post regarding heaphone EQ'g being taboo, I'm posting regarding a flat listening response line vs boosting bass/treble and no added DSP to color the sound quality (listening fatigue) vs EQ'g the integration of a subwoofer into a room's acoustics. Although both qualify as EQ'g, these are two different sonic animals.

Could you post where the comment came from and what you're trying to show with the above quote as I'm not sure the point you're trying to make?

FWIW, via headphones, I listen using Sennheiser, HD-650 headphones, custom headphone cables, a XONAR, Essence STX sound card, using an upgraded power supply. The DAC is a Stello, DA100, Signature and the headphone amplifier is a Burson Audio, HA-160.

You might consider a better set of headphones for your computer listening needs. And yes, for computer listening purposes, in my opinion, a set of Sennheiser, HD-650's makes a noticeable difference in bass reproduction over less expensive headphones.

-

My conclusion that a musical sub is an accurate one came about through reading ported vs sealed. If a certain sub-woofer plays more detailed tones, then this accuracy would be preferred for music. This accuracy however will likely not be wanted, or even wasted, when watching a movie.

For example. The SVS SB-1000 would be considered closer-to-accurate however it only drops down to 24Hz. The SVS PB-1000 (same price) drops down to 19Hz because of the front port, because of this it looses some accuracy but gains bloat (FR and volume) which you want for movies.

While this makes sense to me I'm not speaking through direct experience, just observing.

I've heard all your headphone gear. I would consider the HD650s not what I'm looking for, they're overly warm and smooth over details (anything sounds good with these!). I prefer the HD600, which is still somewhat veiled but better for music. The HD800 however is almost perfect, very accurate, great bass extension and overall tone. I'm currently use the Denon D7000 for personal movie watching however more often than not I watch movies with family and friends.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You're not removing anything.
In a word, hogwash. 100% of the vibration caused by subwoofers is acoustically sourced, caused by the floor, walls and ceiling resonating in response to the 12 to 60 foot long wavelengths they produce. Isolation devices do nothing to reduce, let along stop, those resonances. They are very effective in generating Placebo Effect.

Technically you're raising it off the floor, similar pads for speakers work wonders on a bookshelf. I suppose if you could suspend the sub from a string in the middle of the room this would be the most accurate. I don't see how it can be a placebo effect when people report it stopped their sub-woofer jumping around at high volumes.

Are you speaking from first hand experience when you call hogwash?
post #56 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

I've heard all your headphone gear. I would consider the HD650s not what I'm looking for, they're overly warm and smooth over details (anything sounds good with these!). I prefer the HD600, which is still somewhat veiled but better for music. The HD800 however is almost perfect, very accurate, great bass extension and overall tone. I'm currently use the Denon D7000 for personal movie watching however more often than not I watch movies with family and friends.

Just saying, you're asking about subwoofers under $200.00 and willing to go to $500.00 or $600.00 as it reads like we're back to first base because if you're this tuned in, again, you're asking too much out of too little; unrealistic expectations.

You prefer a $1,500.00 set of headphones, over a $500.00 set of headphones, running through about $1,500.00 worth of DAC/headphone amplifier or more in value as you personally use $2,000.00 headphones while asking about a single $200.00 - $600.00 subwoofer while commenting about personal usage in an office setting while entertaining family and friends in an office size room. confused.gif

In my opinion, there's no way one is going get HD-800 sound quality out of a $200.00 - $600.00, single subwoofer solution, sound system.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 5/3/13 at 10:16am
post #57 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Just saying, you're asking about under $200.00 and willing to go to $500.00 or $600.00 as it reads like we're back to first base because if you're this tuned in, again, you're asking too much out of too little; unrealistic expectations.

Tuned in, hehe, I suppose I just know what I like. My idea of bass is probably a lot less (quantity-wise) than the majority of movie-watchers here.

All I'm asking for is an accurate sub-woofer to be played quietly in a small room, is this really that unrealistic for around $500?

SVS SB-1000
HSU STF-2
NGX NX-BAS-500
post #58 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphicism View Post

All I'm asking for is an accurate sub-woofer to be played quietly in a small room, is this really that unrealistic for around $500?

Yes.

Why?

You have higher expectations out of $200.00 - $600.00 worth of subs then they're capable of reproducing and fail and disappointment will be your companion for it. In my opinion, you're wanting the performance of $1,500.00 - $2,500.00 subs in a $200.00 - $600.00 form factor and I don't see it as realistically happening. I'm trying to be fair and honest in my evaluation of what you've posted.

At the $200.00 - $600.00 price point, single sub solution, compromise is your only option.
post #59 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Yes.

Why?

You have higher expectations out of $200.00 - $600.00 worth of subs then they're capable of reproducing and fail and disappointment will be your companion for it. In my opinion, you're wanting the performance of $1,500.00 - $2,500.00 subs in a $200.00 - $600.00 form factor and I don't see it as realistically happening. I'm trying to be fair and honest in my evaluation of what you've posted.

At the $200.00 - $600.00 price point, single sub solution, compromise is your only option.

Well I'm not foreign to spending $1500 on audio but I think we're getting a little caried away here.

I'm looking for a sub-woofer to match my $300 Arimotiv 4s which are to be played quietly. Surely a sub playing at quiet volumes isn't as hard to attain with a budget compared to someone looking for a loud and accurate sub.

Honestly talk of EQ was a curve ball I wasn't expecting. Taking into account the inverse square law, room dynamics only affect reflected sound (ITD) so how do you account for what comes directly out of the speaker? Furthermore a sub-woofer in a 3-way corner will give you 12db of reflection whereas a 2-way corner will give you 6db and 3db on 1 wall (floor).

One of the reasons we don't EQ headphones is simply down to mastering, music is pre-EQ'd so you would have to EQ per song. If you're simply using EQ to flatten your room (which I believe to be impossible) are you taking into account phons curve and matching something that looks like this?

post #60 of 75
[quote name="Graphicism" url="/t/1470016/subwoofer-for-music-under-200/30#post_23274833"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You're not removing anything.
In a word, hogwash. 100% of the vibration caused by subwoofers is acoustically sourced, caused by the floor, walls and ceiling resonating in response to the 12 to 60 foot long wavelengths they produce. Isolation devices do nothing to reduce, let along stop, those resonances. They are very effective in generating Placebo Effect.

Technically you're raising it off the floor, similar pads for speakers work wonders on a bookshelf. I suppose if you could suspend the sub from a string in the middle of the room this would be the most accurate. I don't see how it can be a placebo effect when people report it stopped their sub-woofer jumping around at high volumes.

Are you speaking from first hand experience when you call hogwash?[/quote]

I've actually seen woofers suspended from the ceiling using strings, actually nylon fishing line, to make the point that I think Bill is trying to make.

If you do the math, you find that while subwoofer cabinets may vibrate some, it isn't mostly their their vibrations that cause transmission of bass to other rooms. If you do the measurements, they agree with the math.

The sound mostly gets transmitted from the woofer cone to the walls and ceiling floor and then to the rooms above, below and next door.

Suspend the woofer on nylon lines so that it even can bounce up and down a bit, and not that much changes.

Surprise, surprise the major source of sound from a woofer is its cone and the port if there is one.
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