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20,000 dollar Speaker Budget whats the best value Speakers? New or Used? - Page 2

post #31 of 130
Here is a link to some of the custom ones he has designed for people:
http://www.selahaudio.com/id198.html


They are pretty neat.
post #32 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

There was a member at the NE GTG and he has the Phil 2's and guess what he wants to move into??

Interesting. I missed that. Who was it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Are you serious? Triple 8's sound NOTHING like the Noesis 212HT's. Have you even bothered to read any of the current two GTG threads?
At this point you're just making yourself look silly by making a comment like that.

read this thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1460712/central-iowa-spring-audio-gtg-jtr-bamberg-seaton-salk-gr-research/240#post_23262468 and tell me where anyone thinks the JTR Noesis sound like a cat screaming.

I would think the OP has more of a once bitten, twice shy attitude regarding JTR's. There was a ton of hype around the earlier JTR's just as there is with the newer versions. I couldn't fault him for being more skeptical this time. I also think Jeff is a bit more subdued about the performance increase from regular to Noesis based on the comments I've seen.

Have you heard any of the JTR's?
post #33 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post


I would think the OP has more of a once bitten, twice shy attitude regarding JTR's. There was a ton of hype around the earlier JTR's just as there is with the newer versions. I couldn't fault him for being more skeptical this time. I also think Jeff is a bit more subdued about the performance increase from regular to Noesis based on the comments I've seen.

My thinking precisely.
post #34 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Interesting. I missed that. Who was it?
I would think the OP has more of a once bitten, twice shy attitude regarding JTR's. There was a ton of hype around the earlier JTR's just as there is with the newer versions. I couldn't fault him for being more skeptical this time. I also think Jeff is a bit more subdued about the performance increase from regular to Noesis based on the comments I've seen.

Have you heard any of the JTR's?

I agree, he's heard the Triple 8's and didn't like them so I'm sure he'd more then gun shy and for good reason. But AcuTechDefGuy took the OP's quote on the Triple 8's and edited it to make it seem like he was saying that about the Noesis 212HT's. Of course he's since deleted his post.

And the Noesis 212HT's don't sound anything like the Triple 8's, I'm sure anyone who's heard them at the Iowa or NE GTG could comment better on them.
post #35 of 130
BTW, all those THD graphs show only 90 dBs so if you want to play louder than that expect much higher THD. I have cheap speakers that can play 105 dBs at 1.6% THD from 80hz to 10KHz but you guys would never consider them so why care so much for measurements?
post #36 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I agree, he's heard the Triple 8's and didn't like them so I'm sure he'd more then gun shy and for good reason. But AcuTechDefGuy took the OP's quote on the Triple 8's and edited it to make it seem like he was saying that about the Noesis 212HT's. Of course he's since deleted his post.

And the Noesis 212HT's don't sound anything like the Triple 8's, I'm sure anyone who's heard them at the Iowa or NE GTG could comment better on them.

This is almost saying the 888's were bad and the noesis corrected a problem. The 888's are not bad, I would love to hear the whole story behind not liking them as everyone has their preferences. What I have found most of the time is that people lover their high end speakers and when they get speakers like the 888's say they sound harsh or screaming. The problem I have come across is that the person was listening to their speaker at 100 dBs with higher THD and when trying out the 888 it was at 110-115 dBs. I told them they should listen to the 888s at the same volume they are used to or at the same THD levels. They could very well like higher THD or lower volumes or both. You never know.

Man those line arrays look awesome, I wonder how loud they could play?
post #37 of 130
Assuming this is a separate system in addition to the theater, you might want to also consider stretching the budget or haggle a bit to add KEF Blade's and the TAD Evolution 1 to your list. Another interesting option is the Pioneer S-1EX for a lot more value.

The Legacy's can be rather impressive, but some models have fairly narrow vertical listening window. In the size room you have that issue should be reduced with any speaker due to distance from the speaker, but it's certainly something to consider depending on the use of the room. As many have noted, the Salk Soundscapes are very nice performers. You could also always look at a DAC with 4ch output and use Dirac Live or Audio Lens to correct the room response and integrate a sub or two. A hardware alternate would be to plan on integrating the Trinnov stereo device.
post #38 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

This is almost saying the 888's were bad and the noesis corrected a problem. The 888's are not bad, I would love to hear the whole story behind not liking them as everyone has their preferences. What I have found most of the time is that people lover their high end speakers and when they get speakers like the 888's say they sound harsh or screaming. The problem I have come across is that the person was listening to their speaker at 100 dBs with higher THD and when trying out the 888 it was at 110-115 dBs. I told them they should listen to the 888s at the same volume they are used to or at the same THD levels. They could very well like higher THD or lower volumes or both. You never know.

Man those line arrays look awesome, I wonder how loud they could play?

Yes sorry, I wasn't implying that the Triple 8's are bad just acknowledging that the OP didn't like what he heard from them.
post #39 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Yes sorry, I wasn't implying that the Triple 8's are bad just acknowledging that the OP didn't like what he heard from them.

I know, just wanted to let others know that they are not bad because a person says so. There are many reasons a speaker can sound good many times and bad at others, and the room has lots to do with it. Jeff uses great drivers and they were made to be flat so anyone could shape the response to their liking.
post #40 of 130
Thread Starter 
Iv not heard about the Latest JTR speakers but i will never buy anymore. i am not discrediting the producer. Its just that i personally felt disappointed with its performance. The Mid-bass is weak, its lacking the true mid-bass one would expect from a pro speaker design. The upper frequency was harsh and at higher volumes the speakers would scream out certain frequency tones that would just hurt the ear. It is a very good speaker for a lower budget home theatre design. Its dynamic and sensitive which helps on the amplifier loads. However I am very happy with the Danley SH50 and would not consider selling them. The SH50 do not sound like horn speakers, the only gripe I have with these is the upper frequency are not refined but they are not too harsh either i can live with them for my HT duties.

I will research into the TAD speakers, some are going on audiogon at the present moment.
post #41 of 130
Thread Starter 
The phills 3 does not work well in my room. One reason why I’m trying to sell these again. I find the cabinet of poor quality. There is resonance within the box which is is the weakest point. My Room is totally dead, with acoustic panels everywhere. The RALL Tweeter is smooth but cannot fill the space with sound. The speakers also seem much harder drive on both my ATI Amplifiers and the Tubes. The Phills are very good speaker if one can redesign the lower bass cabinet better or with different wood such as ply.

No issues with Phills they are very good speakers, yes the midrange seems to sound more natural and faster which helps with accuracy. The upper frequency driver will work with rooms that are not dead otherwise I find the Tweeter level tones seem to be drowned in the room. Its just not enough energy to fill in the larger space.

This is one reason why I am considering larger speakers with a more accurate refined response. Something that will give me transparency to the source with refinement.
The SS12 might not able to fill in the duties for me considering the phills 3 are not working well in my room. I guess if I took the speakers for my bedroom setup it will perform very well.
post #42 of 130
Well, I think this is the perfect speaker for you, except the price.
Von Schweikert Audio VR-100SX Universe system
Can anyone please explain to me how in the world this design works? It is beyond baffling, but the performance seem ridiculously good. biggrin.gif
post #43 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post

Greetings AVS Members,




. I am now willing to spend up to 20,000 dollars (If Needed) to get the best possible 2 channel stereo music.
If this is the situation Then the Salk Soundscape 12s would be my choice. For straight 2 channel music with 20 grand being the limit I do not see how they could be beat. You may find others that equal the SS12s but none "better".
This is the part that stings for me to say but they may even be a bargain at 20G when compared against their true competition.eek.gif
My personal preference would be the Noesis 212 & The Cat 12s but those are the exact opposite of what the OP asked for and are a direct comparision to what is already owned with the SH-50s.
2 channel only = SS12s and don't look back.
2 cents
Chris

I just read the above statement about the Phil 3s. They were not meant to compare with 20G speakers but the SS12s are. Still the output will not be anything like the Danleys.
In this case I would think about the Cat 12s w/DSP set to full range. It would be a good compromise.
Edited by countryWV - 5/1/13 at 6:37am
post #44 of 130
post #45 of 130
Since you mentioned being open to buying used and since you mentioned Aerial, the 20T's used and Focal Scala's used are two options. You could probably get Sonus Faber Elipsa's and Elipsa SE's for at or just under 20k new as well. The Wilson Sophia's could be purchased new within your budget but you might be able to get used Sasha's for 20k. Revel Studio 2's could be purchased new but the Salon2's might have to be purchased used to get to 20k depending on what kind of deal you could strike with a dealer. The same is true of the B&W 800's, they might have to be purchased used.
post #46 of 130
What about Magnepan 20.7's? They're a little under your budget but would leave some room for some subs.
post #47 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post

The phills 3 does not work well in my room. One reason why I’m trying to sell these again. I find the cabinet of poor quality. There is resonance within the box which is is the weakest point. My Room is totally dead, with acoustic panels everywhere. The RALL Tweeter is smooth but cannot fill the space with sound. The speakers also seem much harder drive on both my ATI Amplifiers and the Tubes. The Phills are very good speaker if one can redesign the lower bass cabinet better or with different wood such as ply.

No issues with Phills they are very good speakers, yes the midrange seems to sound more natural and faster which helps with accuracy. The upper frequency driver will work with rooms that are not dead otherwise I find the Tweeter level tones seem to be drowned in the room. Its just not enough energy to fill in the larger space.

This is one reason why I am considering larger speakers with a more accurate refined response. Something that will give me transparency to the source with refinement.
The SS12 might not able to fill in the duties for me considering the phills 3 are not working well in my room. I guess if I took the speakers for my bedroom setup it will perform very well.

Yeah, if the Phil3 didn't work out for you, I seriously doubt the SS12 would.

Accurate & Smooth, yet Dynamic & Powerful. Sounds like the Revel Salon2 & KEF 207/2. wink.gif

...... Unless you can get the $30K KEF Blade or $30K TAD E1 for $20K. biggrin.gif

But after your once-bitten-twice-shy experience w/ the JTR, I assume you will NOT spend $20K on ANY speaker that you have NEVER auditioned?

Just because people say some speakers sound great does not mean you will agree. wink.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 5/1/13 at 8:32am
post #48 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post

Iv not heard about the Latest JTR speakers but i will never buy anymore. i am not discrediting the producer. Its just that i personally felt disappointed with its performance. The Mid-bass is weak, its lacking the true mid-bass one would expect from a pro speaker design. The upper frequency was harsh and at higher volumes the speakers would scream out certain frequency tones that would just hurt the ear. It is a very good speaker for a lower budget home theatre design.

I will research into the TAD speakers, some are going on audiogon at the present moment.

Most people would not blame you for never buying another JTR based on your experience.

I have the TAD 2201 Pro Monitors. Very smooth & ultra accurate. Nothing harsh or screaming about them. Not much bass, though. biggrin.gif

I'm sure the Pro vs Consumer lines are different somehow. For one, I don't think Andrew Jones designed the Pro Monitor. But I bet the TAD E1 would sound amazingly smooth & dynamic.
post #49 of 130
Of the choices mentioned, I'd examine the Salks closely. For music, Raal/Accuton, AE (Janowitz) combo is spot on in a mid-field music only scenario.

However you proceed into this exercise, I'd put forth a significant amount of expense toward the room, and a well sorted out final result. Working in concert with an optimal environment, I'd seriously consider a professional in high end set-up and optimization. someone with a strong skill-set like Mark Seaton. This trifecta, ie, quality loudspeakers, ideally optimized and set up, in a solid environment, is clearly the key to success in playback and reproduction of the recorded event.
post #50 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Yeah, if the Phil3 didn't work out for you, I seriously doubt the SS12 would.

The Phil 3 and SS12, don't even come close. That is comparing two totally different speakers. The Accuton driver is totally different, and that is just the start...
post #51 of 130
Thread Starter 
The TADs are being sold on Audiogon for 18000 US. Will research into them.


So i guess there are no Legacy Audio Fanboys on this forums like there is with the the Salk???


Few people on here have suggested some pro audio speakers. I do love my Seaton Subs but having another Pro Audio Speaker in the same room is something i do not want. The SH50 already is filling the duties and does it pretty well. They are dificult speakers to work with but after hours and hours off placement and config with dfiffrent cables they are working very well. Very transparent to the source and if the recording is bad they do not forgive.

The Tad is interesting speaker, wander how this compares to the B&W 800D
post #52 of 130
Thread Starter 
How about the Tannoy Kingdom Royal, A New pair was being listed on Agon for 18 grand??
post #53 of 130
Thread Starter 
Acudeftech, it seems you love to collect speakers :-) How do you manage to store them all arround the house?

I
post #54 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post

The phills 3 does not work well in my room. One reason why I’m trying to sell these again. I find the cabinet of poor quality. There is resonance within the box which is is the weakest point. My Room is totally dead, with acoustic panels everywhere. The RALL Tweeter is smooth but cannot fill the space with sound. The speakers also seem much harder drive on both my ATI Amplifiers and the Tubes. The Phills are very good speaker if one can redesign the lower bass cabinet better or with different wood such as ply.

No issues with Phills they are very good speakers, yes the midrange seems to sound more natural and faster which helps with accuracy. The upper frequency driver will work with rooms that are not dead otherwise I find the Tweeter level tones seem to be drowned in the room. Its just not enough energy to fill in the larger space.

This is one reason why I am considering larger speakers with a more accurate refined response. Something that will give me transparency to the source with refinement.
The SS12 might not able to fill in the duties for me considering the phills 3 are not working well in my room. I guess if I took the speakers for my bedroom setup it will perform very well.

Well, if you think there's a resonance with the mdf cabinet (which I respectfully take exception to), just try ply. That would be one of the worst possible choices. MDF is about the least resonant material available short of some kind of space age substance. It sounds like you have a very difficult room. You probably need something with more brute power--perhaps one of the high-sensitivity designs would work best for you, since you have subs and don't need deep bass response. But they won't give you more refined or accurate sound than the 3's.
post #55 of 130
Maybe a bamboo cabinet? wink.gif
post #56 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Of the choices mentioned, I'd examine the Salks closely. For music, Raal/Accuton, AE (Janowitz) combo is spot on in a mid-field music only scenario.

However you proceed into this exercise, I'd put forth a significant amount of expense toward the room, and a well sorted out final result. Working in concert with an optimal environment, I'd seriously consider a professional in high end set-up and optimization. someone with a strong skill-set like Mark Seaton. This trifecta, ie, quality loudspeakers, ideally optimized and set up, in a solid environment, is clearly the key to success in playback and reproduction of the recorded event.

This x 100%. Assuming the OP has not done this, I have heard rooms that had $40K speakers that sounded just okay and rooms that had $2K speakers that sounded amazing. The room/setup/configuration is a huge part of all this and way too many people ignore it when buying expensive speakers.
post #57 of 130
How about a good old frequency response of the LP before going nuts. Maybe the OP has a dip or peak that makes his Phils sound just OK.

FOH,
He already has Danley SH50's which in my mind does not get any better.
post #58 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvetan1 View Post

The Phil 3 and SS12, don't even come close. That is comparing two totally different speakers. The Accuton driver is totally different, and that is just the start...

The ONLY thing that's NOT close is their PRICE.

The design of both are CLOSE.

Their tweeters are CLOSE (RAAL).

Their Crossover designs are CLOSE (Dennis Murphy did both).

Some people prefer the BG Neo8 midrange over the Accuton, regardless of price. For example, one member said he preferred the BG Neo8 of the Phil2 over his own SS10's Accuton.

Well, okay, the SS's cabinets are higher grade and thicker and has more bass, and thus the much higher cost.

But the SOUND QUALITY between the Phil3 & SS12 are CLOSE.
post #59 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassfeen View Post

Acudeftech, it seems you love to collect speakers :-) How do you manage to store them all arround the house?

Where there's a will, there's a way. biggrin.gif

Of course, I'm not seeking approval from any forums. wink.gif

We have to be completely happy with the sound of our speakers and setup, not what people say.

I usually like to collect speakers that measure very accurately, especially a listening window response of +/-1.0dB from 2 independent sources. wink.gif I believe I have room for one more pair of speakers in my family room. biggrin.gif
post #60 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

The ONLY thing that's NOT close is their PRICE.

The design of both are CLOSE.

Their tweeters are CLOSE (RAAL).

Their Crossover designs are CLOSE (Dennis Murphy did both).

Some people prefer the BG Neo8 midrange over the Accuton, regardless of price. For example, one member said he preferred the BG Neo8 of the Phil2 over his own SS10's Accuton.

Well, okay, the SS's cabinets are higher grade and thicker and has more bass, and thus the much higher cost.

But the SOUND QUALITY between the Phil3 & SS12 are CLOSE.

Thanks for the positive reinforcement. Actually, if you're in Washington in July, you can judge for yourself at the CAF. The 3's and SS8's will be in the same room. I haven't heard them in an A-B environment, so I really can't say how much difference there is. That's a factual matter that
can be tested in a couple of months.
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