or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › Blu-ray Software › AVS Can't-Wait Special—"Mastered in 4K" Blu-Ray Releases
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

AVS Can't-Wait Special—"Mastered in 4K" Blu-Ray Releases - Page 14

post #391 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

That's as far as you needed to go with that sentence.

100% of the time, the most vocal Darbee haters are people who have never used one. This is not a coincidence.

Unfortunately this becomes the norm such as:

mastered in 4K is a scam -- before seeing it
4K is pointless unless you use an 80" screen viewed from 5ft away -- before seeing it.

How some forum members have changed over the years... Sigh.
post #392 of 824
The summary of these discs on the Sony Store website amuses me. Several of the bullet points are just reworded/combined versions of earlier statements.
Quote:
Created from highest quality 4K source materials with expanded color
High bitrate digital transfer for optimal HD experience
New expanded color delivers a more vibrant and dynamic picture
Ideal for playback on 4K TVsalso showcases excellent quality on standard HDTVs
Plays on all Blu-ray players and PlayStation 3 systems
Sony Pictures film restoration experts have meticulously worked on each title to ensure they meet the latest quality standards for 4K presentation
Get the best 1080p Blu-ray picture possible, directly from 4K source materials
Experience a more vibrant and dynamic picture with new expanded color
Push your TV to the limit with a high bitrate digital transfer for an immersive visual experience
Ideal solution for new 4K TV owners and great for Blu-ray collectors

If their experts working meticulously on each title is a selling point for this line, that means it doesn't happen with the rest of their releases? eek.gif
post #393 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

The summary of these discs on the Sony Store website amuses me. Several of the bullet points are just reworded/combined versions of earlier statements.
If their experts working meticulously on each title is a selling point for this line, that means it doesn't happen with the rest of their releases? eek.gif

They REALLY ran out of words to say, but the poor marketing staff was required to write 10 lines
post #394 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

I thought XV color wasn't possible in the Blu Ray spec?
Is Sony just lying about the XV color encoding???

Did this ever get answered?

If you play one of these discs with expanded color on and then off, is there a difference (for the better)? I saw the note about having a display preset calibrated for expanded color but no need if there isn't any change in playback one way or the other.
post #395 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Unfortunately this becomes the norm such as:

mastered in 4K is a scam -- before seeing it
4K is pointless unless you use an 80" screen viewed from 5ft away -- before seeing it.

How some forum members have changed over the years... Sigh.

At the VE shootout, the calibrators running the show were critical of the Darbee, and anything else that would attempt to enhance a Blu-ray's IQ.

As a digital imaging professional, I can speak to the value of high-quality sharpening algorithms. It's perfectly appropriate to use the right amount of sharpening for the intended output device, the key is to use an algorithm that does not produce artifacts in the process. Of course it's like salt, it should only be used when needed—and too much can be worse than too little. However, there's no doubt that sharpening is a necessary condiment.
post #396 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

100% of the time, the most vocal Darbee haters are people who have never used one. This is not a coincidence.
You're right, it's no coincidence that people who go for accuracy in their display chain would dislike adding some sharpening box to the mix.
post #397 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

At the VE shootout, the calibrators running the show were critical of the Darbee, and anything else that would attempt to enhance a Blu-ray's IQ.

As a digital imaging professional, I can speak to the value of high-quality sharpening algorithms. It's perfectly appropriate to use the right amount of sharpening for the intended output device, the key is to use an algorithm that does not produce artifacts in the process. Of course it's like salt, it should only be used when needed—and too much can be worse than too little. However, there's no doubt that sharpening is a necessary condiment.

And the Darblet does a pretty darn good job at doing just that.. cool.gif
post #398 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

You're right, it's no coincidence that people who go for accuracy in their display chain would dislike adding some sharpening box to the mix.

Accuracy to a point is a lie. Between compression, color truncation, display limitations and a host of other issues, accuracy is something one wants but will NEVER achieve. The only accurate setup would be the one in the mastering house for each specific piece of content. Only then are you seeing exactly what was intended to be seen in that exact enviroment. We talk about grayscale and color accuracy but gamma is largely ignored. And never mind the actual viewing enviroment guidelines (ambient light) that directly change our perception of color and contrast. Each display has its own issues (contrast, color accuracty, motion resolution, etc) and all add their own signature to the image. Using a Darbee in reserved amounts is a drop in the bucket when it comes to hurting what most call an "accurate" image. In the end I've found that it benefits the image far more than it hurts one in most cases.
post #399 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by jqmn View Post

Did this ever get answered?

If you play one of these discs with expanded color on and then off, is there a difference (for the better)? I saw the note about having a display preset calibrated for expanded color but no need if there isn't any change in playback one way or the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jqmn View Post

Did this ever get answered?

If you play one of these discs with expanded color on and then off, is there a difference (for the better)? I saw the note about having a display preset calibrated for expanded color but no need if there isn't any change in playback one way or the other.

Not in the spec. may not mean "not possible". I need to do more research on that.
As the discs are out, people should be able to easily do the test. According to http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/superwhite.html
With the same on/off switch, people that can notice the super-white effect on DVD/BD/AVCHD should be able to see the x.v.color effect with properly shot AVCHD. Even though x.v.color is never said to be supported with BD, if Sony somehow got the Gamut Metadata Packet, which is REQUIRED for x.v.color, encoded on these 4k-mastered BDs, people can use the scenes posted a few pages back and do a quick comparison.

I was able to find a scene at night (not these 4k discs) that has white lamps and saw a difference with ONLY the brightest and darkest areas on screen. It's NOT easy to see on every night shot. Note, I was just changing the setting on PS3, the TV automatically flashes black and adjusts to the new setting. However, I do not have these 4k discs to test.
Edited by hazel_wu - 5/21/13 at 3:25pm
post #400 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Accuracy to a point is a lie. Between compression, color truncation, display limitations and a host of other issues, accuracy is something one wants but will NEVER achieve. The only accurate setup would be the one in the mastering house for each specific piece of content. Only then are you seeing exactly what was intended to be seen in that exact enviroment. We talk about grayscale and color accuracy but gamma is largely ignored. And never mind the actual viewing enviroment guidelines (ambient light) that directly change our perception of color and contrast. Each display has its own issues (contrast, color accuracty, motion resolution, etc) and all add their own signature to the image. Using a Darbee in reserved amounts is a drop in the bucket when it comes to hurting what most call an "accurate" image. In the end I've found that it benefits the image far more than it hurts one in most cases.

Yep.

People who come down on devices like the Darbee on the "you are abandoning accuracy" mantra tend to be throwing stones in glass houses. No matter how that individual may wish his experience is "the one meant to be seen by the creators" he has almost inevitably chosen his own set of compromises in that regard. (And it's not even a given that a Darbee is necessarily a detour from "accuracy." If there are other compromises in the chain, for instance the variability in sharpness between projectors and even projector lenses, a device that restores some lost clarity/sharpness can be seen as upholding the accuracy of a system).
post #401 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by jqmn View Post

Did this ever get answered?

If you play one of these discs with expanded color on and then off, is there a difference (for the better)? I saw the note about having a display preset calibrated for expanded color but no need if there isn't any change in playback one way or the other.

The data out there is conflicting but what I found comes down to two different paths....

1. A specific model of Sony HDTV that supports the x.v. color connected to a recent Sony Blu-Ray player that supports x.v. color. I thought that it was a standard feature but apparently it isn't according to some sources. Sony's high-end Triluminos sets from the past few years and their latest 2013 TVs are reputed to be capable of displaying these discs as intended. It may be Sony FUD but I wouldn't put it past them to tie it to their Blu-Ray players.

2. Any high-end HDTV and Blu-Ray player that supports x.v. color.

According to Sony if you play these discs using x.v. color from a Blu-Ray player on a TV that does not support it, they don't look right. That's all I can find.
post #402 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

No matter how that individual may wish his experience is "the one meant to be seen by the creators" he has almost inevitably chosen his own set of compromises in that regard.
Perhaps, but I think it's a big stretch to equate the compromises and inevitable deviations from the ideal display to intentionally introducing inaccuracy.
Sure, if you have a soft projector, or sit far from a smaller TV, I could certainly see the use in equalizing the visual frequency response, much like you might use an EQ to compensate for a listening environment or speakers' acoustics. But enhancement for the sake of enhancement isn't my kind of thing.
post #403 of 824
^^^ even with Sony's latest BDP-S5100 and last year's panel, with both xvycc turned on, the colour end up being washed out. From my limited tests thus far, only player with Triluminos colour and TVs with Triluminos colour can playback the colour properly (not even XBR 8 Triluminos, I tried it with that display too)
post #404 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Perhaps, but I think it's a big stretch to equate the compromises and inevitable deviations from the ideal display to intentionally introducing inaccuracy.
Sure, if you have a soft projector, or sit far from a smaller TV, I could certainly see the use in equalizing the visual frequency response, much like you might use an EQ to compensate for a listening environment or speakers' acoustics. But enhancement for the sake of enhancement isn't my kind of thing.

I do not know what Darbee has to do with "Mastered in 4K" but it reads as DNR in a box, that's fine for those that do not care for film grain so long as it is not baked into the transfer... still think what wonders it could do with To Kill a Mockingbird... heck they can pretend they are a Universal executive and repeat their marketing claim that the 'magic' processing of 2k makes it just as good as 4k.
post #405 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

I do not know what Darbee has to do with "Mastered in 4K" but it reads as DNR in a box, that's fine for those that do not care for film grain so long as it is not baked into the transfer... still think what wonders it could do with To Kill a Mockingbird... heck they can pretend they are a Universal executive and repeat their marketing claim that the 'magic' processing of 2k makes it just as good as 4k.

What does the Darblet have to do with film grain? It does nothing to decrease film grain.
post #406 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

I do not know what Darbee has to do with "Mastered in 4K" but it reads as DNR in a box, that's fine for those that do not care for film grain so long as it is not baked into the transfer... still think what wonders it could do with To Kill a Mockingbird... heck they can pretend they are a Universal executive and repeat their marketing claim that the 'magic' processing of 2k makes it just as good as 4k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

What does the Darblet have to do with film grain? It does nothing to decrease film grain.

With films with lots of grain, I find that the Darbee actually increases it..
post #407 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

What does the Darblet have to do with film grain? It does nothing to decrease film grain.

You didn't expect wuther to have any idea what he's talking about, did you?
post #408 of 824
OK, what are the cons regarding this Darblet thing?
post #409 of 824
HDMI flashing, the ocassional self reset, pretty much that's it.
post #410 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post

I do not know what Darbee has to do with "Mastered in 4K" but it reads as DNR in a box, that's fine for those that do not care for film grain so long as it is not baked into the transfer... still think what wonders it could do with To Kill a Mockingbird... heck they can pretend they are a Universal executive and repeat their marketing claim that the 'magic' processing of 2k makes it just as good as 4k.

Huh? confused.gif
post #411 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

HDMI flashing, the ocassional self reset, pretty much that's it.
HDMI flashing?confused.gif
post #412 of 824
Maybe I use the wrong term. But from one preview to the FBI logo to menu, instead of just blank screen I always see HDMI handshake that creates flashing in green for a split second. Not within the movie itself, though.
post #413 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Maybe I use the wrong term. But from one preview to the FBI logo to menu, instead of just blank screen I always see HDMI handshake that creates flashing in green for a split second. Not within the movie itself, though.
Thank you for the explanation.
post #414 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Perhaps, but I think it's a big stretch to equate the compromises and inevitable deviations from the ideal display to intentionally introducing inaccuracy.
Sure, if you have a soft projector, or sit far from a smaller TV, I could certainly see the use in equalizing the visual frequency response, much like you might use an EQ to compensate for a listening environment or speakers' acoustics. But enhancement for the sake of enhancement isn't my kind of thing.

I totally get what you're saying, as I've recently spent quite a bit of time properly calibrating my set and it looks superb - BUT, as Norman Bates said, we all go a little mad sometimes. I've despised motion interpolation for as long as it's been around, however there's one mode on my TV which does a terrific job of adding extra frames without the horrid motion artefacts that usually result.

I never use it when reviewing and it only really works on digitally-shot stuff (even then it depends whether they've lensed it with a shutter angle designed to mimic film's typical motion blur or not, though for some reason it's great for film-based TV shows on Blu like Friends or TNG). But it adds a genuine sense of smoothness without going full soap opera, and it also retains a lot of resolution that's lost due to traditional 24fps motion blur.

Similarly, I hate overdone sharpness for the artefacts that it creates, but the feedback about the darblet (inc. eulogies from hardened home cinema enthusiasts who I thought would normally steer clear of such things) suggests that it sharpens up the picture without adversely affecting it. My interest has been piqued, however it will continue to remain an interest until the darblet loses that $300 dollar price tag.
post #415 of 824
Someone actually tested these 4K discs on a Sony 4K TV, with various titles and blu-ray players
http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/bluray-highlights-may-12-2013/
post #416 of 824
Sorry to get back on topic but blu-ray has breaken form and has caps of the exact(ish) shots and even in the same order for the Glory re-release!

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Glory-Blu-ray/69725/#Review
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Glory-Blu-ray/276/

There is a definite detail increase in the newer version caps, well defined wisps of hair missing in the 2009 version are quite noticeable in the re-release and I am pretty damn sure it was not because of some sharpening filter.
The color grading has slight differences sometimes the newer more green sometimes not although the old guy with greenish hair is a bit off putting.

Anyway continue the off-topic stuff.
post #417 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel_wu View Post

Someone actually tested these 4K discs on a Sony 4K TV, with various titles and blu-ray players
http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/bluray-highlights-may-12-2013/

That's me wink.gif
post #418 of 824

Comparing the shots, it's pretty obvious that the previous release was contrast boosted a bit whereas the new release appears a lot more natural. Canvas and fabrics are no longer bleach-white, smoke, clouds, and sky aren't blown out, etc. Skin looks a little rosier (on the handful of white people, anyway). The grain of the new release appears much finer in many shots - as a result many scenes exhibit a noticeable detail increase. I'll probably pick this one up too, if only to see the difference on my set up - and because I love the movie - who knows how different the capture methods between the old disc and new disc are and how that plays into the screenshots...

I know I'm not the first to ask this, but is Sony going to offer any sort of trade-up offer? Seriously, these are the discs that they should have released the first time. Give me max bitrate, split it across discs, strip out features, I don't care, just give me the "ultimate in picture and sound" that was promised.
post #419 of 824
There is no trade-up option for these discs. If only studios do that, just from my StarWars trilogy alone I could've got more than $1,000 back (in savings, I mean)... and that's only one title amongst at least 20 which I've been upgrading. smile.gif
post #420 of 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

That's me wink.gif
Not you, posted by "Drew":

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/bluray-highlights-may-12-2013/#comment-35196
Quote:
I’m reporting back, now that my Sony 4K screen has been calibrated, and I’ve the proper amount of time to experiment with it, in practically every useful way. After multiple hours of testing, using equipment that is specifically designed to take advantage of Sony’s proprietary color enhancement features, as well as equipment that would not necessarily do so, I am utterly convinced that Triluminos, as well as the associated metadata are nothing more than a scam.

The best and most accurate colors that I was able to achieve on the Sony 4K display were done so with my OPPO BDP-103 set to output 4K, and playing discs that were not part of the “Mastered in 4K” line. I was also able to achieve better and more accurate color on the 4K screen, with xvYCC off. If I set the OPPO to output 1080P, with xvYCC turned off, the colors were essentially indistinguishable, compared to setting the OPPO for 4K.

In contrast to colors becoming slightly subdued and somewhat washed out on 1080P displays, when xvYCC is activated, interestingly, colors become bolder and more saturated, on the 4K screen. I originally made the mistake of believing that this automatically meant color improvement. I have since confirmed that it most certainly didn’t. Colors actually become over saturated, and show errors skewing artificial. The color gamut is definitely wider, and more overall color is noticeable, but it’s not more accurate color.

When I connected the OPPO and a Sony 5100 at the same time, and used the same settings on both players, while watching “Mastered in 4K” discs, there was absolutely no difference in color, even though the Sony player was able to read the metadata, and taking advantage of Triluminos. When I did the same thing, while testing non-Mastered in 4K blu-rays, the OPPO gained a clear advantage in color reproduction. I suppose that this means that at least we can say that Sony’s Mastered in 4K discs, used in conjunction with their proprietary color enhancement features give them the ability to achieve color that is achievable using blu-rays that are not part of the Mastered in 4K line, with non-Sony blu-ray players, right?

It’s looking more and more like this is a situation eerily similar to the one that we already went through with Superbit DVDs. If anything, this might be worse. I will say that the Mastered in 4K discs, viewed using the Sony 5100 did offer improvement in overall contrast on the Sony 4K screen, when compared to being viewed via the OPPO. The difference was slight, but perceptible. So, if there is any benefit to be gained from Triluminos or equipment that is able to read their metadata, it is in contrast, rather than color.

I tested non-Mastered in 4K discs to find out if they also displayed improved contrast, when using the Sony 5100, and they did not.

None of what I’m saying is meant as a negative criticism of the Sony 4K display. It produces some phenomenal images! And its 4K upscaling of certain blu-rays — ‘Lawrence of Arabia’ in particular — is astonishing. ‘Lawrence of Arabia’ looked closer to native 4K content than I would have ever thought possible.

This post is only intended to show that Sony’s proprietary color enhancement features on the 4K television, the blu-ray player, and the Mastered in 4K discs add up to nothing more than a gimmick used for marketing. At best, these features allow for color that equals what you can achieve without them, or a much wider color gamut for people that don’t care about accurate color, and only want colors to “pop.” At worst, these features give you either a much wider — but less accurate — color gamut, or color that is actually worse and less accurate than if these features are not put into use.

I wonder if his new set was just calibrated to Rec.709 standard, in which case the gamut would look the same as his other sets, at least until some frames with the extended data came along. If the extra bits are actually working, I would not expect them to look like anything we are accustomed to as they would be outside the Rec.709 color space.
Edited by AVfile - 5/23/13 at 9:39am
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Blu-ray Software
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › Blu-ray Software › AVS Can't-Wait Special—"Mastered in 4K" Blu-Ray Releases