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TD15M - SEOS12 - BMS4550 / theater progress / Dual TD6M - SEOS12 - BMS4550 build. :D - Page 5

post #121 of 314
Thread Starter 
Matt,

I notice you mention beaming, which I specifically asked John about when ordering that combination. He stated there should be no issue with beaming? You designed the B&C with the SEOS12, how does that compare to the AE in this regard?
post #122 of 314
Sorry, I know you asked Matt but

Depends how John meant it. Even a 3" driver will beam at high enough frequencies. If John was assuming the TD15 was being crossed over to a 15" waveguide at 1khz, ya, no issue with beaming. In fact, we rely on these woofers to beam in order to get controlled directivity. If they didn't beam at all, the off axis would look weird.

What John should have said was, "what's the application" instead of "no issue".

Either way, don't worry man. The beaming Matt is talking about is fairly minimal. I noticed it when Matt posted his measurements and didn't say anything, but that's because it's very minor. You'd be very hard pressed to hear this. There's bigger issues than that, that every design has to deal with.
post #123 of 314
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the input. I have so much more time and money invested into these than I initially intended (isn't that the way it always goes), that I'm just really nervous about them not turning out the way I expected.

I did tell John that they would be used with the SEOS12. I gave all information including seating distances, width, etc; and I was assured there would be absolutely no issues at all with it. I initially was looking at the 12, but I was sold on the fact that the 15 is the "best behaved" of all the drivers in the lamda lineup, so that's the direction I went.

I'll quit being paranoid now I guess. cool.gif Matt's the mad scientist but he can only work within the limitations of the given design.
post #124 of 314
I could be brutally honest and pick apart every little thing with any design. Especially my designs because I know where the issues are. If you want brutal honesty so you can know all the technical prblems, just ask. But I really don't think that'll help you enjoy your system. No speaker is perfect. A little bit of spreading and bunching around the cross over point would be serious nitpicking. Now you know. But honestly, there's so much good about this design, you'd be hard pressed to get past all the good to hear the bad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I initially was looking at the 12, but I was sold on the fact that the 15 is the "best behaved" of all the drivers in the lamda lineup, so that's the direction I went.

?? Best behaved? I've never used any AE woofer so I don't know, but I'd be surprised if the 15 was better behaved than the 12. Most 15s, this one included, get a little ugly above 1khz. It's the trade off for lower directivity and output.
post #125 of 314
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

?? Best behaved? I've never used any AE woofer so I don't know, but I'd be surprised if the 15 was better behaved than the 12. Most 15s, this one included, get a little ugly above 1khz. It's the trade off for lower directivity and output.

Via PM's with John. Like I've said before, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to this. I try and gather as much information as possible and apply it into a practical application.
Quote:
That said, the TD15M is going to give you more efficiency and as a result lower distortion for any given SPL. Due to the cone profile it is also the most well behaved of all the TD woofers and most believe it to have the best midrange of every TD woofer. For this reason Mark Seaton plans to use the TD15M in the cabinets with the QSC waveguide when he finally gets those going.

What I should have done is let Matt test my Axiom M80's. That probably would have made me feel a whole lot better. biggrin.gif
post #126 of 314
C'mon man. You should be thrilled. These are gonna be awesome. They measure great. Wait till you hear them. Actually this is a good thing. We should nit pick these things until you're inches away from trashing them. Then just before you do, you'll decide "well, I may as well listen to them just once". And then you'll be like WHOA!!! Kind of like when you have low expectations for a movie and then it's actually really good.
post #127 of 314
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

C'mon man. You should be thrilled. These are gonna be awesome. They measure great. Wait till you hear them. Actually this is a good thing. We should nit pick these things until you're inches away from trashing them. Then just before you do, you'll decide "well, I may as well listen to them just once". And then you'll be like WHOA!!! Kind of like when you have low expectations for a movie and then it's actually really good.

Lulz. It's just my personality. I'm so OCD it's unbelievable. Just ask Matt, Erich, Jake, John................................. biggrin.gif
post #128 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Hopefully as the summer rolls on we can see a comparison of the 360 vs 4550 w/Seos 12, then w/Seos 15, and w/Seos 18. The bigger the waveguide the lower the CD can be crossed over so differences should reveal themselves.
Chris W
I've got the SEOS 18/ TD15M/ BA750 combo. The BA is supposed to go both lower and higher than the 360. It weighs about 10 lbs eek.gif. I have all the parts but the active crossover gear. I do have the amps but need to get the minidsp and measurement setup. Definitely a learning curve with that gear.
Should be able to crossover @ ~650hz.

I have some nice ply and all the necessary tools.
Now I need the time. Presently working on a large house modeling project. As soon as the flooring is in it will be time to take a break and work on the speakers.smile.gif
Edited by rajacat - 5/17/13 at 4:39pm
post #129 of 314
Tux here is your requested graph:


Mark, the shapes of the 4550 and DNA-360 low corners are very close. I don't have graphs of just the HF driver saved for the latest crossovers so I'll see if I can get them measured.


Travis just wait a week and all your fears will subside. biggrin.gif
post #130 of 314
Oh and look what showed up today, 14lbs of crossover parts!



I am going to get busy.
post #131 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Tux here is your requested graph:

Cool. Both look great. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post


I am going to get busy.

Dude, where do you find the time!
post #132 of 314
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Oh and look what showed up today, 14lbs of crossover parts!



I am going to get busy.

Hell yeah. I'm just taking a shot in the dark, but that looks like about 390.00 worth of parts there. biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Cool. Both look great. Thanks.
Dude, where do you find the time!

Tell me about it. I swear if you peeled back Matts skin, you would find a cyborg underneath. tongue.gif
post #133 of 314
The graphs look great. These are going to kick ass. Relax.
post #134 of 314
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

The graphs look great. These are going to kick ass. Relax.

Relaxing is not in my vocabulary. tongue.gif
post #135 of 314
Individual driver frequency responses with crossover,

4550:


DNA-360:


Both overlaid:
post #136 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I swear if you peeled back Matts skin, you would find a cyborg underneath. tongue.gif

Skin?

You mean my protective MDF coating biggrin.gif
post #137 of 314
Thread Starter 
Nice, lol.

Well I got a little further tonight. The wife was out for a girls night so I fired up the router and went to town. Main cabs are completely finished. There are some spots where I could nit pick needing to bondo and sand to make perfect, but I don't think I'm going to worry about it. These will be behind the screen wall and completely out of sight, so I think I'll let my OCD attack something else. biggrin.gif

I also started on the baffles (well technically I started a couple days ago, but that didn't go too well cool.gif), for the heights. I'm pissed another $27.00 router bit is already toast. I'm hoping I can limp through cutting the wg out before it gives up the ghost.




Edited by bass addict - 5/17/13 at 10:26pm
post #138 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajacat View Post

I've got the SEOS 18/ TD15M/ BA750 combo. The BA is supposed to go both lower and higher than the 360. It weighs about 10 lbs eek.gif. I have all the parts but the active crossover gear. I do have the amps but need to get the minidsp and measurement setup. Definitely a learning curve with that gear.
Should be able to crossover @ ~650hz.
I am looking forward to seeing what this combination will do. The BA-750 is a very interesting CD.

Bass Addict
Nice work. Not much longer now.smile.gif
Chris W
post #139 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

biggrin.gif

I was gonna say the exact same thing!

Nice work mtg. Can you show an overly with the BMS / Denovo CDs on 5db scale and 200 to 20khz frequency?




Same here! I have heard that the BA-750 is not really all that much better than the BMS 4550, but that was just a rumor. I would love to hear it on the Seos-18,
but I think that a Radian 951PB would sound better on the Seos18 than the BA-750, especially if you add the Truextnt Be diaphragm to the Radian, although
at that point you are way over the BA-750 in price. I have a Radian 851PB myself that I am going to use with the Seos-18, I just have not had the funds to purchase the
Seos-18 to pair it with yet. I plan on doing Seos-15's w/BMS4550's for the L+R's and use my Radian 951PB with the Seos-18 for the Center.
post #140 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Same here! I have heard that the BA-750 is not really all that much better than the BMS 4550, but that was just a rumor.

I ordered a very small number of those last year, but I do have parts coming for a lot more. Being that the number of people with a BA-750 is under about 8, I'd say that's an unusual rumor. wink.gif I have said that the BA-750 won't perform any better than most 1" CD's on a small horn or waveguide. The BA will perform best on a deeper horn that can use it's lower end.

Here's an interesting combo using a BA-750 on a deeper horn with a 1" throat. No crossover applied. It's one of the flattest curves I've seen for a horn/CD before a crossover.



Edited by Erich H - 5/18/13 at 7:18am
post #141 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I ordered a very small number of those last year, but I do have parts coming for a lot more. Being that the number of people with a BA-750 is under about 8, I'd say that's an unusual rumor. wink.gif I have said that the BA-750 won't perform any better than most 1" CD's on a small horn or waveguide. The BA will perform best on a deeper horn that can use it's lower end.

Here's an interesting combo using a BA-750 on a deeper horn with a 1" throat. No crossover applied. It's one of the flattest curves I've seen for a horn/CD before a crossover.




Wow, that baby is flat! What horn did you test that on, if you don't mind me asking?

As far as the BA-750 versus the BMS-4550, I can't recall exactly where I heard that the 750 is not better than 4550, but I remember reading it somewhere...perhaps on the DIYSG forum? Not sure exactly but I do remember someone saying they had either heard them both, or maybe it was some preliminary measurements that someone was referring to,....

I will say that I am highly interested in the BMS-4550 versus the BA-750. Like I said, I plan to use the 4550's with my Seos-15's when they come in, then sometime down the road when I have more spare cash, I will order a single Seos-18 to pair with my single Radian 951PB that will be used as the center channel with the 4550's on the Seos-15's being used as the Front Right and Front Left in my theater.

Is the BA-750 a 1" CD or a 1.4" CD? If it is a 1.4" CD and would fit in with the Seos-18 that I plan on using with my Radian 951PB, I would be willing to buy one of the BA-750's for direct comparisons with my Radian
951PB. That would certainly be fun! But if the BA-750 is only a 1" CD, isn't the Seos-15 the largest waveguide that it could fit on? Or is there a 1.4" to 1" adapter that could be used, and if so, would that deter the sound quality?
post #142 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Is the BA-750 a 1" CD or a 1.4" CD? If it is a 1.4" CD and would fit in with the Seos-18 that I plan on using with my Radian 951PB, I would be willing to buy one of the BA-750's for direct comparisons with my Radian
951PB. That would certainly be fun! But if the BA-750 is only a 1" CD, isn't the Seos-15 the largest waveguide that it could fit on? Or is there a 1.4" to 1" adapter that could be used, and if so, would that deter the sound quality?

The BA 750 is a 1" CD. My SEOS 18 has the 1" throat that was originally offered. You can now get the SEOS 18 with 1.4" or 1.5" throats too.
http://www.horns.pl/seos18-2.html
http://www.horns.pl/seos18.html
post #143 of 314
Marty, I think you're talking about the 4550 and the 360, not the 750 and 4550.

There have been people that have asked if the 750 would be better on a SEOS-12 than the 360 or 4550. I would have said no, because there's no reason to put that big of a compression driver on a small waveguide. There's no benefit unless you have a larger horn or waveguide.

The 4550, DE250, or 360 can not be crossed as low as the BA-750. The benefit of the 750 would be a lower crossover point, not necessarily sounding better above 1khz.
post #144 of 314
Is the 750 a good match for the SEOS 15 or do you have to get to the 18/24 before that lower xover point really starts to come into play
post #145 of 314
It would be a good match if you need the added power handling at the low knee of the XO. The ba-750 on the SEOS 15 could cross low and slow, like 900hz and be ticking along like nobodies business. Even at high power.

But that's a small benefit actually. In most homes (some of you nuts might benefit) the added power handling down there wouldn't be realized.
post #146 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Here's an interesting combo using a BA-750 on a deeper horn with a 1" throat. No crossover applied. It's one of the flattest curves I've seen for a horn/CD before a crossover.




Which horn is this?
post #147 of 314
You can probably get away with a single cap crossover with the BA-750 in a smaller horn.
post #148 of 314
My curiosity wasn't necessarily how does the BA-750 sound versus the 360 or the 4550, but rather, how would a completed speaker with either the Seos-15 or the Seos-18 sound with a BA-750 versus a BMS-4550 or a DNA-360. Not just CD versus CD, but rather, the entire speaker as a whole. Does that make sense?
post #149 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by dheflin83 View Post

Which horn is this?
I bet it is SEOS15
post #150 of 314
Thread Starter 
Well I'd better post a couple more pics before you peckers completely derail my thread. biggrin.gif

Probably short of Matt standards, but it will do. Front baffle is done with exception of the ports. Like usual, I had a million things running through my mind tonight and I forgot to leave tabs for the wg to attach to so I'll have to glue some on the back of the baffle.


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