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Dual Opposed Dayton 18 RSS460-HO (iNuke 6k DSP) vs Paradigm Sub15 with SVS AS-EQ1

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
Hi All,

I'm totally bummed out and need some guidance / help.
So about three months ago I started my DIY project. I landed up with the Dayton 18 after reading about them on Data Bass website (LMS-R and Titantic where sold out at PE)
I eventually finished the box this weekend and did some playing and felt/heard a difference. Mid-bass was much better and more enveloping.

Ignorance is bliss....

My room setup



The sub build is as follows

















The iNuke with Fan mod




The links in the chain.

Yamaha 3067 Receiver with dual sub out ----> Input A and B on SVS AS-EQ1 ---> Output A (Sub15) Output B (DO 18)
I've checked the Yamaha and no addtional filters or EQ are applied to either sub channel
Sub Channel is running Monoaural x2 (Stereo and Left/Right are other options)

iNuke 6k DSP - Using a Hosa RCA-XLR adapter on input. Using Hosa 5ft 12AWG Neutrik to Banana on output
I have run multiple tests on the different AMP options on the iNuke and got the best response on Biamp mode 1.
Single input and running each driver on a channel with a power limiter.

Sub Internal wiring is VanDamme 2x 4mm wiring. About 9-10lb Acousta Stuff filling in the box.

Sunday I decided to run AS-EQ to EQ the systems as I had great success on the Sub15 alone.

This is the best I could get. At this stage NO EQ on the iNuke 6k



I then spent 6 hours yesterday running different EQ setups on the iNuke to try and compensate. (I clearly know nothing about EQ)
This is the best I could get.

post #2 of 19
The first thing I would try is swapping locations with the Paradigm with your dual sub and redoing the measurements. This should tell you if there is an issue with your sub or the location. Also you might want to run a near field measurement on your dual sub to be sure that you don't have anything strange going on with it's response. Be careful that you don't overdrive your mic or preamp. If you do it can clip the peaks off and you can end up with a very smooth response which isn't really accurate.

I have found that I get the best results with Audyssey if I work to get the subs integrated as well as I can before running Audyssey. So I play with the phase settings on the individual subs, levels, location, level etc. to get the combined response as smooth as possible. Then I let Audyssey do it's magic.

Good luck.
post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 
The current iNuke setup is as follows







Based on what I've read on the Data-Bass website along with these WinISD sims I was really hoping and looking forward to getting some decent 10-25Hz performance from the box.
I cant understand why the Sub15 is outperforming the dual 18.





With no EQ I have to run the dial just past 55% before the first clip light comes on




With EQ I have to run the dial about 25%. During 'Pod Emerge' on WOTW at reference I got all the iNuke lights to come on and there was significant pressure in the room.

I tried to use REW but could not get the sound card 100% and only using the Radioshack 33-2055-4050 unit and cal file.
Trying to keep the playing field at level as possible I captured these. I ran the output of my laptop directly onto the Sub15/iNuke input (bypassed Receiver and AS-EQ1)

IGNORE THE SPL - I was tried to gauge the response of one vs the other.

Average of 4 measurements. Each measurement is a 4x 5-300Hz 512k Sweeps
Sub 15


DO 18 NO EQ


DO 18 WITH iNuke EQ


The DO 18 response is just really poor below 40 and above 80 without EQ. The Sub15 has not have PBK done and was on bypass for all testing.
The room is the same for both units so not sure why the one is behaving so poorly compared to the other.

Bascially looking for some insight into what might be wrong. I've checked and no air-leaks. I moved the speaker down the wall towards the back of the room and measurements were worse.
Thinking of removing all damping and stuffing to see if it makes a difference. I'm not worried about <10Hz as my goal was more about >10Hz.

This is my first attempt at DIY and somewhat dishearten that things have not quite worked out especially seeing how many people are really happy with the Dayton HO 18 at the moment.

Help / Comments / Suggestions most welcome.

Thanks
Edited by Nuno C - 5/7/13 at 12:07pm
post #4 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djarchow View Post

The first thing I would try is swapping locations with the Paradigm with your dual sub and redoing the measurements. This should tell you if there is an issue with your sub or the location. Also you might want to run a near field measurement on your dual sub to be sure that you don't have anything strange going on with it's response. Be careful that you don't overdrive your mic or preamp. If you do it can clip the peaks off and you can end up with a very smooth response which isn't really accurate.

I have found that I get the best results with Audyssey if I work to get the subs integrated as well as I can before running Audyssey. So I play with the phase settings on the individual subs, levels, location, level etc. to get the combined response as smooth as possible. Then I let Audyssey do it's magic.

Good luck.

I actually tested every iNuke amplifier mode in both phase 0 and 180 and always got better responses with Phase 0. Strange thing is the Sub15 is also on Phase 0.
I will try and swap the subs around tomorrow. The problem is the DO 18 is just to big to live where the Sub15 currently sits.
Doing this solo is damn hard work. That box is so damn heavy.
post #5 of 19
if its on carpet those carpet sliders are amazing
post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 
Okay so here are the graphs when the units are in exact opposite positions.



The Sub15 still EQ fine but at least the DO 18 looks much better.... not great but better. Really not sure why the DO 18 does so badly where the Sub15 fairs so much better.
I then decided to remove all the stuffing in case I added too much and see what the change if any would be.



Needless to say I added the stuffing back in and moved the subs back to their original planned positions.
After a few hours I finally managed to use the iNuke 6k DSP to get this graph.



Very happy with the result. The EQ looks rather weird but here it is in any case.



Should I be worried/concerned about anything or are their any suggestions?

I think being within 5db from 10 to 300 is pretty good response. Will the fact that I have the AS-EQ1 and iNuke 6k DSP doing things to the frequencies diminish the SQ at all? confused.gif
post #7 of 19
5 db from 10 to 300 is awesome!! Using the two together should not degrade anything. How do you like it now?
post #8 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuno C View Post

This is my first attempt at DIY and somewhat dishearten that things have not quite worked out especially seeing how many people are really happy with the Dayton HO 18 at the moment.

Help / Comments / Suggestions most welcome.

Thanks

I'm not shocked to see your Paradigm Sub15 outperforms the Dayton in the low and high end sub frequencies. The Dayton Reference series drivers are great for sound quality, not low frequency output. They are very much not in the same league as the Paradigm's driver, no comparison. I think if you were looking for dramatic low-end, the Dayton 18's are a poor choice for such a large driver, just my opinion.

For their price, they are great so you could always add more, or if you are more of a "normal" person and don't want multiple huge boxes in your room, look to get a better driver... something like a UXL-18 or maybe a used AVA18.

Looking at your latest measurements... Are you not happy? For what you spent, it looks really good!
post #9 of 19
Thread Starter 
Don't get me wrong....

I don't think I could do any better for $1000 ($500 for AMP + $500 for drivers). I'm travelling at the moment and will be away until the 20th.

I ran several BR demo sequences.... Iron Man, Inception, Hulk, Flight of the Phoenix, WOTW and they sounded much better with the DO 18 - prior to the flat response.
I haven’t had a serious extended listening session or even any quality time with the system as I just wanted to get the response right before going away for work.
I still need to build a magnetic front grills for the box.
Will post some pictures of the unit and it final resting place once I'm back.
post #10 of 19
Are those noctua fans in your amp?
post #11 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

Are those noctua fans in your amp?

The first step I did was doing a fan mod on the iNuke6000. The fans were far to noisy for in room use.
I really wanted to avoid 80/90mm fans as there is just too much air turbulence for complete silence while having decent airflow / static pressure.
I decided to use 140mm and 120mm and even bought some alu heat-sinks (which I did not end up using).
The fans headers are glued down and so I decided to leave them and unsolder the cabling from the fan itself. I then soldered new fan headers and connected up some fans I had to test noise and air flow.
I then build a prototype cover using Masonite to work out ideal fan positioning. I then build a second Masonite unit with more accurate holes.
Finally I build a clear 1.5mm perspex model of that and it's looks and works great. I initially tried the AeroCool/Scythe combo and although the airflow was fantastic I could still hear a very fine hum from 2 meters away in a totally silent room. You would never hear it during all but the most silent passages. Still once I tried the Noctua combo there was only one option.
The airflow is less but I can't not hear it at all from about 1.5 meters. I tested both combinations with rubber fan holders, with and without dust filters. The fans are sucking in air so I attached removable/washable dust filters to keep the unit 'clean'.

In case anyone is wondering here are the tech specs for the fans.

NF-A14 FLX (Square)
RPM - 1200
Airflow - 67
Airflow - 115 m3/h
Pressure - 1,51 mm H20
Noise - 19,2 dBA

NF-P12 (Square)
RPM - 960/18 1100/20 1350/24
Airflow - 54 CFM
Airflow - 92 m3/h
Pressure - 1,68 mm H20
Noise - 19,8 dBA

Aerocool Shark 140
RPM - 1500 / 800
Airflow - 96 / 50 CFM
Pressure - 1.069 / 0.305 mm H20
Noise - 30 / 15

Scythe SFF21G (120)
RPM - 1900
Airflow - 75 CFM
Pressure - ?
Noise - 35 dBA

Standard NMB-MAT 3110KL-04W-B70
RPM - 4000
Airflow - 45 CFM
Airflow - 78 m3/h (1.300 m3/min)
Pressure - 64.4 Pa
Pressure - 0.260 mm H20
Noise - 40 dBA
Voltage - 12V
post #12 of 19
Is it possible that it's not the Dayton causing the poor performance below 20Hz, but rather the iNuke? I've heard and read in a few places that these amps aren't too great for power below 20Hz. I'm almost certain I've seen testing where there was a quick drop off of power from 20Hz to 10Hz.
post #13 of 19
Quote:
Is it possible that it's not the Dayton causing the poor performance below 20Hz, but rather the iNuke? I've heard and read in a few places that these amps aren't too great for power below 20Hz. I'm almost certain I've seen testing where there was a quick drop off of power from 20Hz to 10Hz.

Wrong.....iNukes easily dig down to below 10Hz. My Dual Dayton HO 15s happily go down to 13Hz with iNuke 6000 DSP.
post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Wrong.....iNukes easily dig down to below 10Hz. My Dual Dayton HO 15s happily go down to 13Hz with iNuke 6000 DSP.

Ha. Well I wasn't asking if they can go below 20Hz, but rather do they retain the power levels they have above 20Hz.
post #15 of 19
Quote:
Ha. Well I wasn't asking if they can go below 20Hz, but rather do they retain the power levels they have above 20Hz.

My bad for sure, in that case.
post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Is it possible that it's not the Dayton causing the poor performance below 20Hz, but rather the iNuke? I've heard and read in a few places that these amps aren't too great for power below 20Hz. I'm almost certain I've seen testing where there was a quick drop off of power from 20Hz to 10Hz.

I can't remember which thread here on AVS but there was some discussion around electronic roll off of equipment and the iNuke was tested by someone and the graphs were posted.
It had stable output to 10hz, but there was roll off at around 8hz if I remember correctly.

If you look at my last EQ graphs (before AS-EQ1) I got very good output from 10hz to 30hz. The Behringer products are used in countless DIY projects that go well below 20Hz.
From my limited experience so far I must say that I am happy with iNuke 6k as my priority was from 10 to 100hz.

From what I've read it's common for sealed designs to have a roll off from 30Hz which is why EQ with sealed design are so important. My room sadly happens to have major dips at 30hz and 80hz, just not sure
why the AS-EQ1 battled to EQ the DoD 18 compared to the Sub15. I will do some critical listening when I'm back home next week but I believe I will be very happy now that the response is flat across the range.

Braveheart..... how long you been running / using your iNuke 6k?
Your Dayton build - I can barely believe your MLP response without ANY EQ or Audyssey. Simply awesome. Green with envy.
post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuno C View Post

I can't remember which thread here on AVS but there was some discussion around electronic roll off of equipment and the iNuke was tested by someone and the graphs were posted.
It had stable output to 10hz, but there was roll off at around 8hz if I remember correctly.

If you look at my last EQ graphs (before AS-EQ1) I got very good output from 10hz to 30hz. The Behringer products are used in countless DIY projects that go well below 20Hz.
From my limited experience so far I must say that I am happy with iNuke 6k as my priority was from 10 to 100hz.

From what I've read it's common for sealed designs to have a roll off from 30Hz which is why EQ with sealed design are so important. My room sadly happens to have major dips at 30hz and 80hz, just not sure
why the AS-EQ1 battled to EQ the DoD 18 compared to the Sub15. I will do some critical listening when I'm back home next week but I believe I will be very happy now that the response is flat across the range.

Braveheart..... how long you been running / using your iNuke 6k?
Your Dayton build - I can barely believe your MLP response without ANY EQ or Audyssey. Simply awesome. Green with envy.

Yeah I believe I've found that thread. It does appear pretty stable, basically losing only a small amount of power below 20Hz. Nothing relevant though.

Sealed does has a steady rolloff from 30Hz on down, but typically the room gains can help in those areas. Not everyone is lucky though, as it seems to be your case. Ha. My sealed Dayton 18 HO doesn't seem to have an audible rolloff until around 18Hz or so. 20Hz in my room sounds just as strong as 30Hz. Though I do wish I could get a mini dsp and some measuring gear to really see what's happening and start smoothing things out.

I wouldn't say the Dayton is built for SQ alone and not ULF use. I know there have been times when people talked about the distortion of the Dayton below 20Hz, but that was at the Daytons max power.

Your end graphs do look impressive. This makes me really want to pick up a mini dsp soon. lol
post #18 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuno C View Post

Braveheart..... how long you been running / using your iNuke 6k?
Your Dayton build - I can barely believe your MLP response without ANY EQ or Audyssey. Simply awesome. Green with envy.

Been using it since mid December last year. Yeah it sounds great. Um actually running two NU6000 dsp, one in the bedroom with dual daytons and one in living room feeding a ported Alpine. Fantastic I must say in either setup and iNukes offer gobs of power for the subs to belt out some serious subsonic shockwaves that hit like a nuke, no wonder why Behringer named it so.
Edited by braveheart123 - 5/15/13 at 9:53am
post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post


I wouldn't say the Dayton is built for SQ alone and not ULF use.

+1
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