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Which display wins the shootout? Let's have some fun. Make your predictions here. - Page 18

post #511 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

You'll be waiting for quite a while. Those two Korean companies are currently in a legal feud for WOLED patents. I for one am not going to wait for OLED, but I'm concerned with plasmas going away. Once plasmas are gone, it will probably be more than 5 years before OLEDs catch up to plasma's price so I will be making as best purchase as I can. That means sticking with the largest size as well.

Thanks for the response. That's what I was expecting would happen, but I'm not the most familiar with how the TV industry does its pricing, I was still a young kid when plasma reached reasonable prices biggrin.gif
post #512 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisrandomguy View Post

Thanks for the response. That's what I was expecting would happen, but I'm not the most familiar with how the TV industry does its pricing, I was still a young kid when plasma reached reasonable prices biggrin.gif

Ok, let me put it this way. A 42 inch plasma that only did 480P costed $40,000 back in 1996. A Samsung enginner also told me back in the early 2000s, they never thought LCDs would go over 30 inches and not without an extreme cost. Those dinky-sized LCDs costed multi thousand dollars back then.

So think about. There is NO OLED TV for sale as of right now, so how can we hope for an affordable OLED TV in 5 years when we're constantly hit with vaporwares year after year? LG is now saying they will be releasing a curved OLED for $15,000, but shouldn't they come out with regular shape OLED TV first?

Besides, how can we know what kind of manufacturing defects await for OLEDs? OLEDs will have to go through with burn-ins and low-life phosphors. Why not go with a mature technology? That's why you should go plasma and worry about OLED only once they are truly out for sale. I stuck with CRTs when flat panels were too expensive and I never had any reliability problems with whatsoever. Hand over the growing pains to the early adaptors enjoy plasmas! Truth be told, I prefer Samsung F8500 over Galaxy S4. Sure, GS4 may have much superior contrast, but I do not like current OLED's motion performance.
post #513 of 1489
The reason why LCD was not going to "go over 30 inches" was because no one had figured out a way to distribute the LC material in less than several hours per display. Then a process was invented to fix the problem for larger size panels.

For OLED, the same kinds of issues exist: No one has figured out how to make them at volume with high yield. But the problem right now with OLED is more solvable than the LCD problem was. To what extent? It's precisely understood how to get OLED there; it just needs to see the processes refined (at least on LG's method).

Anyway, sorry to go off topic... I'd just buy a plasma today, too.
post #514 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by bzal1122 View Post

I'm still confused with the peak brightness chatter. Does a tv that gets brighter (F8500 and ST60) show purer whites when watching? I watch a ton of hockey and I would love to get that pure white that I'm used to seeing when I am at the rink.

Yes, a brighter TV should show purer whites on something like hockey.

That said, I turned on some hockey on my "not bright" TV and the whites are pretty white. They are not so white on things like the end of an AT&T commercial (where they are clearly visually grey). I wonder if hockey is as "white" as people think it is?

On a completed unrelated note to your post, but related to others: Ability to deal with ambient light and reflectivity are not especially linked on displays. My TV, for example, can deal with ambient light really well except directly incident light and light at something really close to a 90-degree angle. It's not "reflective" much of anything. A Samsung E-series LED LCD can deal with ambient light exceptionally well, but it's got a mirror-like finish to the point where I could easily use it to comb my hair.
post #515 of 1489
Well that answers my question. I actually thought some OLEDs were for sale already, up at that $40k range though. Didn't know it was still just vaporware. Best and biggest plasma I can afford it is then!
post #516 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

Not sure where I gave that impression! That wouldn't even be technically correct.

I think what I said was that for some people, the 8500 will be the better option.

David,

Can you help answer a question about this? I do two types of viewing:

1) Regular controlled lighting nighttime viewing of movies and series
2) Daytime sports viewing

I think its clear that the VT/ZT would be best for 1. But what about for 2?

Does the superior filter of the ZT overcome the lack of brightness for daytime viewing? Or is it better to get the slightly brighter VT but deal with more reflections and less black level in daylight?
post #517 of 1489
I know you didn't ask me, but I'll throw in a few pence anyway (if you don't mind smile.gif). It very much depends upon the level of daytime brightness that encroaches your viewing space (where the windows are located in relation to the placement of the TV and just how sizable the windows are along with what direction(s) they face, south, west and east being the most detrimental to daytime viewing). If the windows are plentiful, blinds might make the difference in making the ZT tolerable.
post #518 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

Not sure where I gave that impression! That wouldn't even be technically correct.

I think what I said was that for some people, it will be the better option.

Hi David - that was in notes that I made while watching. I believe the actual quote is "better all rounder" but it was late.
post #519 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Are you talking about running a 17^3 profile and experimenting with the filters to get the red out??

Samsung 8000's , when they say "Beautiful head on" does that mean that as long as you are viewing "Head on" that the Samsung 8000 is getting everything correct?
The F8000 is coming out with the 75" screen and that is probably the only 2013 TV I would consider trading my 65VT50 for.

ss

ss - Maybe in July. I'm curious to see if 3D LUTs can overcome most of the negative ABL problems as ABL is reported to be less aggressive with the F8500.

The F8000 is very good on axis but suffers from normal off axis LCD problems.
post #520 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

I think SiGGy is wondering how color tracks using APL patterns (Average Picture Level) to see if color stays accurate at various APLs. If that is what he's asking, then the answer would most likely be a no... all PDPs can't display reference color at all APLs AFAIK.

For the entire calibration. For example 7% windows should measure same as 7% APL patterns (very close). Otherwise to me it just means certain size windows will produce nice looking graphs, APL or not they should both produce similar calibration charts. I'm just curious how the TV(s) looked with both APL and non-apl patterns.
post #521 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Kevin - likes all 3, F8500 wins bright room, VT/ZT win contrast ratio
David - F8500 is better all around
Dewayne - Loves the 8500 but doesn't need the luminance for his conditions, and then there's the floating black issue. Stated " Panasonics = 100, Sammy = 99

Basically very very close.

No matter how good the filters, luminance will probably win out in a bright room, and there are plenty of them in my area. But then there's the issue of the F8500 red in the grayscale which must be caused by ABL as nothing was being clipped. Trying to get that out could turn into a multi hour experiment. mad.gif

I still can't believe there is still a floating black issue with these TV's. I have returned so many of my earlier TV's due to this. My Pana VT25 had this, I posted that it was vt50 in error (just found my invoice) I ended up giving that one away to my sister, she could care less about floating blacks. I on the other hand could not watch any dark scenes without constantly noticing it. Which current TV's have this so I know not to buy?
Edited by akadennis - 5/13/13 at 4:50am
post #522 of 1489
I wonder if the attendee voting on day 2 was affected by the calibrator's opinions at the end? Depending on when an attendee filled out his/her ballot, they could have been influenced one way or the other, it's human nature.

Granted calling one display a 99 and the other a 100 is almost 'too close to call', I still believe it can and does affect some.
post #523 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I wonder if the attendee voting on day 2 was affected by the calibrator's opinions at the end? Depending on when an attendee filled out his/her ballot, they could have been influenced one way or the other, it's human nature.

Granted calling one display a 99 and the other a 100 is almost 'too close to call', I still believe it can and does affect some.

Votes were mostly done by then I think....each time people got up (white\black\color\video processing is when votes where being done.....We've had a couple of reports of people that attended already, no idea if those votes\thoughts were shared with others though....
post #524 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Hi David - that was in notes that I made while watching. I believe the actual quote is "better all rounder" but it was late.
Aha. Well yes, I did say that and would stand by that statement. Like Dewayne, that doesn't necessarily mean it's what I'd pick for my viewing environment though.
post #525 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKnobber View Post

David,

Can you help answer a question about this? I do two types of viewing:

1) Regular controlled lighting nighttime viewing of movies and series
2) Daytime sports viewing

I think its clear that the VT/ZT would be best for 1. But what about for 2?

Does the superior filter of the ZT overcome the lack of brightness for daytime viewing? Or is it better to get the slightly brighter VT but deal with more reflections and less black level in daylight?

I'm in the exact same boat as you. It's the noon kickoffs for the NFL and various college kickoffs times that has me worried about the VT60.
post #526 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

Aha. Well yes, I did say that and would stand by that statement. Like Dewayne, that doesn't necessarily mean it's what I'd pick for my viewing environment though.

That applies to me as well. My personal room is light controlled and a VT60 makes sense. My wife's viewing area is non-defeatably very bright and the F8500 would make a good replacement for the D8000 PDP there now.

Thanks to the three of you and Robert for all the information and incite. I have several calibration customers waiting for my opinion on what they should be purchasing and the comparisons offered in the Shootout are far beyond any other practical (readily available) method I know.
post #527 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Votes were mostly done by then I think....each time people got up (white\black\color\video processing is when votes where being done.....We've had a couple of reports of people that attended already, no idea if those votes\thoughts were shared with others though....

I know you're right about the individual performance aspects, but the overall ranking might have been done at the very end by some attendees.

No biggie either way.
post #528 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogues View Post

I'm in the exact same boat as you. It's the noon kickoffs for the NFL and various college kickoffs times that has me worried about the VT60.

I have 6 windows in the same room as my 65"VT60 .. And windows all behind me , this is my tv using Cnet settings till Dnice post his ... As you can see it plenty bright enough granted its ****** softball
post #529 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I know you're right about the individual performance aspects, but the overall ranking might have been done at the very end by some attendees.

No biggie either way.


Indeed smile.gif Hoppefully the adults there were not influenced in that way and I think it would come up when the discrepency shows up when a set that gets 8/9s and then gets a 6 for overall wink.gif
post #530 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonThomasDesigns View Post

I have 6 windows in the same room as my 65"VT60 .. And windows all behind me , this is my tv using Cnet settings till Dnice post his ... As you can see it plenty bright enough granted its ****** softball


If thats bright then I defo have a "very bright" room wink.gif

very nice set up!
post #531 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris 
Aha. Well yes, I did say that and would stand by that statement. Like Dewayne, that doesn't necessarily mean it's what I'd pick for my viewing environment though.
So what you are saying is that you only watch TV in a dark room and because of that you would not pick the Samsung rolleyes.gif
post #532 of 1489
Well the PROs choice weighs more in m eyes. Since they are the ones who actually did the calibration and measurement. None of the attendees spent enough time with the panels over two days to properly do any kind of review IMO. Especially with the brightness discrepancy I think most would pick the brighter panel. Its human nature.
post #533 of 1489
Maybe Panasonic and Samsung can work together to save plasma. Imagine the brightness of the 8500 combined with the black level and filter of the ZT!

Long live Plasma!biggrin.gif
post #534 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

If thats bright then I defo have a "very bright" room wink.gif

very nice set up!

Well it is 8:40 in the morning it gets brighter in here : ) .. But for certain the VT holds up to it and is great for even daytime viewing I know cause I'm home all day watching it lol , it does have reflections but that's what black out curtains are for : )
post #535 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

Well the PROs choice weighs more in m eyes. Since they are the ones who actually did the calibration and measurement. None of the attendees spent enough time with the panels over two days to properly do any kind of review IMO. Especially with the brightness discrepancy I think most would pick the brighter panel. Its human nature.

Theres the rub, the pros chose all 3 depending on the situation.....There was no "clear" winner this year...I do agree that the calibration reports and the feedback (not as much as the choice since its personal)
post #536 of 1489
Its for feedback, its not for "hey go buy this tv".

You need to know what the display does wrong and what it does right and get the one that applies with your needs. Dark performance for me is always way more up there than light, but I keep my displays around 35-38fl anyways.


There is no perfect display.
post #537 of 1489
So what was the special surprise at the end? I missed most of the 2nd part of the shootout.
post #538 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Theres the rub, the pros chose all 3 depending on the situation.....There was no "clear" winner this year...I do agree that the calibration reports and the feedback (not as much as the choice since its personal)

It was up to the attendees not the calibrators to pick the winner and there was an unfair push for the Panasonics. Besides my Kuro I own and recommend Panny plasmas to everyone at all price levels. That being said the Samsung was the best tv as it performed in all kinds of lighting, had pure whites, clear bright picture and black levels were terrific especially when viewing movie demos and the little bit of regular tv programming shown including a bit of basketball playoffs. I won't say money was involved, but David represents Panasonic overseas and he was the main speaker and he had quite a few digs aimed at the Samsung tv.. Reminds me of 2 years ago when the "Kuro Killer' Sharp Elite just had to win, now the Panny ZT had to win but it was out done by it's little brother VT who was just as good but less money and both came up short against the Sammy. Funny how the techs wouldn't admit on the one test where the Sammy tv had bars all across the screen that that was better than the usual 4-5 bars on the Panny's. They tried to brush it off and say everything else about what the bars meant, but if you listen to Friday night you will hear me ask repeatedly is it better yes or no until reluctantly D-nice said yes.
post #539 of 1489
^All that said, the Panny's were the best, right?
post #540 of 1489
So the VT60 won?

Good, it was pretty obvious.
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