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Which display wins the shootout? Let's have some fun. Make your predictions here. - Page 30

post #871 of 1489
So the VT60 was the clear winner in the end, right? Or did Samsung provide kickbacks?
post #872 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

Your non-expert view is supported by the masses, but not the experts. It is certainly clear that Panny has two reference panels in multiple sizes and Sammy has the F8500. Additionally, Panny offers the ST60, which might be the best value of all time. The idea that Sammy is leading the way is laughable although it is fantastic that their R&D is helping move plasma forward. Now maybe they can offer the non-videophile middle class an affordable panel which matches the ST60?

Clearly, it's a great year for plasma.

That is true. I'm not an expert. I can say that I represent the average consumer. However one thing is for sure that Panasonic plasmas be it ZT, VT or ST are facing very tough competition when it concerns their black levels, at least from each other. While Samsung's F8500 takes the lead with no competition when it comes to brightness, sharpness and clarity.
F8500 is suitable to any environment, you don't have to worry how dim or bright is your room. It offers excellent black levels and superior brightness. Thats why it is considered a versatile TV.
ZT, VT and ST are mainly suitable for restricted and light controlled room. They offer outstanding black levels but unfortunately dim and average brightness.

Panasonic engineers have lots of work to do now. they have to look into the areas they have been ignoring or not giving any importance for years.
post #873 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by degobah77 View Post

So the VT60 was the clear winner in the end, right? Or did Samsung provide kickbacks?

Apparently you have not woke up from your dream biggrin.gif
post #874 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo 



The squares A and B are the same color.
Iillusion 1, drag grey colour Swatch over each of the squares.

illusion 2, press Toggle Mask
illusion 3, press Toggle Mask
illusion 4, drag the white MASK over the image

http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/OpticalIllusions/colourPerception/colourPerception2.html
post #875 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post

That is true. I'm not an expert. I can say that I represent the average consumer. However one thing is for sure that Panasonic plasmas be it ZT, VT or ST are facing very tough competition when it concerns their black levels, at least from each other. While Samsung's F8500 takes the lead with no competition when it comes to brightness, sharpness and clarity.
F8500 is suitable to any environment, you don't have to worry how dim or bright is your room. It offers excellent black levels and superior brightness. Thats why it is considered a versatile TV.
ZT, VT and ST are mainly suitable for restricted and light controlled room. They offer outstanding black levels but unfortunately dim and average brightness.

Panasonic engineers have lots of work to do now. they have to look into the areas they have been ignoring or not giving any importance for years.

I'm very much in agreement with you.

The question then has to be will the average customer choose to buy a higher priced F8500 or switch to a cheaper LCD to keep that brightness as they might not be able to discern the other picture quality differences.
Edited by JimP - 5/14/13 at 5:30am
post #876 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post


I'm very much in agreement with you.

The question then has to be will a customer choose to buy a higher priced F8500 or switch to a cheaper LCD to keep that brightness as they might not be able to discern the other picture quality differences.

Is that really the question? Because my understanding is that the ST60 is the way to go, in order to maximize price and performance. The fact is the LCDs scored as low as they did because they had the plasmas next to them on that wall and a just looked bad in comparison. It was remarkably easy to discern the quality differences.

 

The exception was the Sony 2160p UHDTV. In bright room viewing, and without too much of an extreme viewing angle, it really looked fantastic. At times it looked better than the plasmas, but certainly not during fast motion, dark scenes, or when viewed in a dark room. 

 

Of course I'm typing this on my Vizio M3D550KD right now—unfortunately the shoot-out ignores the top-selling brand in the 55"+ category. One thing the shootout did not do is make me think "gosh I need to go to buy a new TV right away because mine looks terrible in comparison."

 

However, the ST60 definitely garnered the sort of accolades that make me think it is the true "King of HDTV" for 2013, because the obsession over ultimate deep blacks has to end at some point. At the shootout, the difference between the Kuro, F8500, VT60 and ZT60 was difficult to detect.

 

The ST60 is the sort of TV that goes on sale at Best Buy several times each year—It's clear that by this time next years picking up an ST for under a grand will be a distinct possibility.


Edited by imagic - 5/14/13 at 5:42am
post #877 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I'm very much in agreement with you.

The question then has to be will a customer choose to buy a higher priced F8500 or switch to a cheaper LCD to keep that brightness as they might not be able to discern the other picture quality differences.

Again I will talk about myself here. I never owned a plasma. Always bought LCDs. I always wanted the contrast and the black levels of plasma but at the same time never liked the dim look of plasmas.
So this year it is different, I will be having a brightness similar or a bit less than an LCD but will have the black levels and the contrast of a plasma. I see it as a win-win situation.

Whoever will buy the F8500 will not just buy it for its brightness, but the whole package. But even where the brightness is considered it is still a winner. If you buy LCDs instead you will get more brightness but have to deal with other problems like uniformity issues, clouding, flashlighting, not so good blacks.
If you will buy other plasmas you might get slightly better black levels but a huge difference in brightness which will be way less.

What I want to say that with other TVs things seem to be more on the extreme sides. if you get excellent brightness you will suffer from not good blacks (LCDs). And if you get outstanding blacks you will suffer from lack of brightness as the TV will look dim (Other plasmas). While with F8500 you get excellent blacks and excellent brightness too.

I assure you many LCD consumers will convert to plasma this year because of the F8500.
post #878 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halimali View Post


Again I will talk about myself here. I never owned a plasma. Always bought LCDs. I always wanted the contrast and the black levels of plasma but at the same time never liked the dim look of plasmas.
So this year it is different, I will be having a brightness similar or a bit less than an LCD but will have the black levels and the contrast of a plasma. I see it as a win-win situation.

Whoever will buy the F8500 will not just buy it for its brightness, but the whole package. But even where the brightness is considered it is still a winner. If you buy LCDs instead you will get more brightness but have to deal with other problems like uniformity issues, clouding, flashlighting, not so good blacks.
If you will buy other plasmas you might get slightly better black levels but a huge difference in brightness which will be way less.

What I want to say that with other TVs things seem to be more on the extreme sides. if you get excellent brightness you will suffer from not good blacks (LCDs). And if you get outstanding blacks you will suffer from lack of brightness as the TV will look dim (Other plasmas). While with F8500 you get excellent blacks and excellent brightness too.

I assure you many LCD consumers will convert to plasma this year because of the F8500.

Quite a few people will buy an F8500 because it is a "top-of-the-line" Samsung, not because it is a plasma or LED.

 

In a showroom, LED IPS panels still look "better" than plasma, with "better" defined as ultra-vivid mode with contrast and color maxed out while video of flower beds and Mediterranean islands plays.

But the F8500 does stand a fighting chance, even against those TVs. It will be interesting to see what consumers ultimately decide. I think the 65" size limit on the premium plasma sets will work against them.

post #879 of 1489
The average consumer choose LED over plasma. The fact is the brighter panel always catches the eye of the consumer. It seems sharper and overall a better panel. However in real world viewing, the ZT and VT are bright enough. No one watches movie with multiple TVs side by side.

The experts pick the Panasonic's as the winner. I personally trust the experts more.
post #880 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Were the F8500 and VT60 calibrated to the same brightness? AFAIK they weren't. So were you seeing the effects of the ABL or just the fact that the F8500 was just overall brighter? Again, we're discussing dark room performance.

Yes TV is 16:9, but you do realize that some of the content that was tested in my link above is 16:9, some 1.85:1 and some 2.35:1. Again, I think it IS a good representation of 'most content'.

Clearly we have different priorities for dark room performance. In a dark room, low APL performance is more important to me. And again that's not to say that the VT60/ZT60 perform poorly with most other content.

We simply disagree on the impact of ABL. Frankly, if you didn't have one display with a typical ABL and one that had a far more moderate ABL, I could see where you might feel that way. But I've done a myriad of comparisons between the VT60 & 8500 as well as my Pioneer Pro 151 and my Sharp Elite (with no ABL since it's a full array LED). I'd have to be totally blind to not see the impact of ABL. It's there and it's far from insignificant.

And even though one panel was adjusted brighter at the shootout, it was clear that in many scenes the overall brightness was quite similar. But when that ABL kicked in, it was quite clear they weren't.
post #881 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by terminaldawn View Post

Please correct me if I am reading more into this but does this mean ST60 is the best buy of the year according to D-Nice and many others? Goog for you as far I'm concern is nothing wrong with that unless I'm missing something if you got a panny good enjoy have fun my whole post got out of context back to work I guess people here tend to do that but what ever I'm not loosing sleep over it

I am really considering replacing my Sammy C8000 (3 years old) and dont want to break the bank, so considering the st60. Only thing I worry about is the filter not being as good as my Samsung C8000. Anyone have thoughts on this?
post #882 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post


We simply disagree on the impact of ABL. Frankly, if you didn't have one display with a typical ABL and one that had a far more moderate ABL, I could see where you might feel that way. But I've done a myriad of comparisons between the VT60 & 8500 as well as my Pioneer Pro 151 and my Sharp Elite (with no ABL since it's a full array LED). I'd have to be totally blind to not see the impact of ABL. It's there and it's far from insignificant.

And even though one panel was adjusted brighter at the shootout, it was clear that in many scenes the overall brightness was quite similar. But when that ABL kicked in, it was quite clear they weren't.

 

Before I got my current Vizio panel, I had a Panasonic GT50. Although I noticed most of the issues that people typically discuss regarding plasmas, none of them bothered me enough because the image quality was so great—most of the time.
 
When a scene came up that caused ABL to kick in, at first I didn't understand what was happening. I was distraught. After some research I came to understand what was happening.
 
That's why I have a Vizio LCD. I miss the way Starship Troopers looked on that plasma, but I don't miss the plasma itself—and the main reason for that is ABL.
post #883 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Here's the problem with "trusting your eyes""



The squares A and B are the same color.

Your eyes aren't reliable.

And this is especially true when your frame of reference is busted by having a lot of displays all showing things at once, some of which are really bright. If I go into the store, I'm certain that the Panasonic plasmas are completely unsatisfactory in brightness against virtually every LCD. Yet at home, I'm actually equally certain that they are completely sufficient in brightness in almost all lighting conditions (I nearly never watch in total darkness). And further, because the forum has gotten obsessed with ABL issues, I've done real-world content testing and found that in the vast majority of content, my plasma isn't being affected discernibly by ABL. Now, there are exceptions, but what's surprising is how relatively infrequent they are.

My testing methodology is admittedly subjective, but involves bringing up content where I think ABL is occurring on my laptop where I can compare the "whiteness" to the laptop white and also doing some sequential testing to see whether the plasma can manage something whiter on a less bright scene than when I see a scene where I believe ABL might be occurring. What's apparent is that ABL is more minimal than I suspect.

Now, again, none of this means that (a) there is no ABL and (b) that I couldn't make use of a brighter plasma. In fact, I want to clarify something for anyone reading: If I were shopping in 2013, I'd probably buy a Samsung. But the idea that this is some dramatic difference that most people are going to experience with a calibrated display on ABL effects regularly strains not the imagination, but the actual experience of someone who has spent time and effort to identify ABL effects. And I do, in fact, regularly see ABL effects. AT&T, for example, is a relentless advertiser in my area and through 30-second skipping, I regularly catch the tail end of their commercials, where I can't help but see ABL effects. But watching sports? No, sorry, I don't see them often. Certainly not when watching the NBA and only minimally on my admittedly minimal time spent checking out the NHL.

So your subjective viewpoint is that we shouldnt trust what we see, but rather what the meters tell us? IMO this is not the way to go...Why would you use a laptop unless its calibrated to video (16-235?)......Unless both were set and measured to be displaying the same standard it would throw the test results out the window....

as far as I know the luminance difference between the sets is more noticeable than the ABL...Now that being said, the peak luminance is being limited on this years Panasonics via a few factors only one being ABL...This peak luminance has been spoken about too....The difference people saw at the event was in luminance and it is our eyes playing tricks on us that say the Samsung produced a "whiter white" when in fact both Panasonic and Samsung produced white, but the luminance of that white is what caused the difference....For those coming from a TV that has a peak luminance after calibration of higher than 30-35ftL (dependant on set choice) will most likely see a difference if they have thier 2013 calibrated in the isf modes.....

The frequency the luminance and ABL may become a factor is a variable one and will differ from person to person...I appreciate you throwing the flipside of the coin however smile.gif bottom line is that no matter which set you choose (Panasonic or Samsung) this year youll have an excellent TV tthat will hopefully tide you over until the next big craze.....

As far as the picture thats taking it to the extreme with visual tricks, Ill play this game too.....



Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The picture you are looking at is hollow and not popping out at you

While these pictures you prove your point, Id rather be happily decieved when spending this type of money than have something I am unhappy with, know that there is something Id be happy with out there for around the same money (this I am only applying to this years TV purchase)

Quote:
Originally Posted by borat!!! View Post

VT60 is a good improvement, at least in the black,.....colors, motion are the same, video processing may be slightly better, it apparently has less dither in the shadows, and maybe a lil more gradation there too, but, honestly the blacks are twice as deep if not more. Vt50 vs Kuro, it was a clear Kuro winner, VT60 vs Kuro(almost hard to tell, albeit the Kuro still pulls ahead) Blacks on the VT50 were .0024 FtL, Blacks on VT60 are .0013...although David Mackenzies HDTVTest review puts them at .003 cd/m2 or .00088 FtL,

The measurement Dave got was the same as at the event....This was discussed earlier.......
post #884 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

So there was NO real-world video viewing durring this "shootout"?

That would be hilarious. Who buys a TV then only watches disc based content?

Back in the day, Toshiba made a pretty sharp HDTV, looked AWESOME in the store with the store demo. But turn it to anything else and it really stunk. The Sony's of the day wheren't quite as sharp as the Toshiba's with the store demo but completely blew away every other set with normal content that most people would be watching.

That's exactly why I emphasized the fact that when they switched to Directv and full-screen content there, the ABL was immediately noticeable. I think many could miss this impact with just watching letter boxed movie content.

But you're 100% right, I don't know anyone that just watches disc based content.
post #885 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by borat!!! View Post

Kevin calibrated my VT50 las year and got 40 FtL out of it, no problem, the VT60 is supposed to be brighter, so i would imagine he could do the same with the VT60

The VT60 isn't brighter. At the shootout they could only get 35fl out of it.
post #886 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

But you're 100% right, I don't know anyone that just watches disc based content.

I only care about the last drop of PQ on disc based content 100% of the time. I watch football and a few other sports but I'm not looking to become immersed. Sure, I want the action to look terrific and the better the PQ, the better the experience (whether conscious of it or not). As for sitcoms, etc, I don't really care. Who would buy a reference panel and then not watch an unusually high percent of blu-ray?! This would analogous to an audiophile investing over $25 grand in a component system only to play MP3 files.
post #887 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

bottom line is that no matter which set you choose (Panasonic or Samsung) this year youll have an excellent TV tthat will hopefully tide you over until the next big craze.....

That's my take as well. Improvements in presently available technology might not amount to much.
post #888 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

I just wanted to poke fun at those Brand Name Fanboys who were sure that the fix was in for Panasonic to win, and their beloved Samsung was being cheated out of it's place at the top, but who have gone completely silent since the results were announced.

Fanboys remind me of this observation by the Irish playwright.


"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
George Bernard Shaw

Now c'mon, let's be fair, those calling it a conspiracy were a small % of those that thought the 8500 looked best. We have fanboys for every make and model. On AVS, if you prefer display A over display B, you're automatically a 'fanboy'.
post #889 of 1489
F8500 has been given king of HDTV 2013 award.. Samsung won I can't believe lol

Here's link: http://www.pn64f8500.com/uploads/VE_2013_Shootout_Results_from_Votes-1.pdf
post #890 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

So there was NO real-world video viewing durring this "shootout"?

That would be hilarious. Who buys a TV then only watches disc based content?

Back in the day, Toshiba made a pretty sharp HDTV, looked AWESOME in the store with the store demo. But turn it to anything else and it really stunk. The Sony's of the day wheren't quite as sharp as the Toshiba's with the store demo but completely blew away every other set with normal content that most people would be watching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

That's exactly why I emphasized the fact that when they switched to Directv and full-screen content there, the ABL was immediately noticeable. I think many could miss this impact with just watching letter boxed movie content.

But you're 100% right, I don't know anyone that just watches disc based content.
That is a great point. I haven't been able to watch the whole thing yet but they didn't actually do comparisons while watching real every day content! That is like reviewing and comparing cars that no one has even drivin! Pointless!

Just because every spec tells you something should be great it does not necassarily mean it will be. I would think professionals would know this!
post #891 of 1489
I am highly considering jumping from my 65vt50 to the 65vt60 but am a bit torn between the vt60 and the Samsung 8500. I primarily watched my tv in a dim lit light controlled environment, so maybe the vt60 would be a better choice for me. Black levels are my highest priorty. I'll see these two sets for the first time in person this coming weekend and then I will make my decision then, but as it stands,I am leaning toward the vt60 as it is virtually identical to the 9g 60" Kuros in terms of black level.
post #892 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

I only care about the last drop of PQ on disc based content 100% of the time. I watch football and a few other sports but I'm not looking to become immersed. Sure, I want the action to look terrific and the better the PQ, the better the experience (whether conscious of it or not). As for sitcoms, etc, I don't really care. Who would buy a reference panel and then not watch an unusually high percent of blu-ray?! This would analogous to an audiophile investing over $25 grand in a component system only to play MP3 files.

becasue they can? just like you choose to watch mostly Blu-rays on your TV otehr people may not choose to do the same and do gaming, watching cable TV as well as Blu-ray not to mention streamed movies.....You may not be able to understand it, but it happens all of the time (as proven by many posts on this forum (taken as a very small sample size).....
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

That's my take as well. Improvements in presently available technology might not amount to much.

Agreed, from what has been said up to this point, unless tthere is some money thrown in, people will most likely see incremental increases and no further "jumps".....JMOHO though....
post #893 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Famouss View Post

I am highly considering jumping from my 65vt50 to the 65vt60 but am a bit torn between the vt60 and the Samsung 8500. I primarily watched my tv in a dim lit light controlled environment, so maybe the vt60 would be a better choice for me. Black levels are my highest priorty. I'll see these two sets for the first time in person this coming weekend and then I will make my decision then, but as it stands,I am leaning toward the vt60 as it is virtually identical to the 9g 60" Kuros in terms of black level.

You may not see as big of a jump as you hope to see......The calibrators when asked, said they wouldnt upgrade form the VT50, but would from generations prior to it....This is especially the case if you ahve your VT50 calibrated, I might wait to see how the greyscale shift they are seeing in these sets falls out in the future before jumping....
post #894 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Famouss View Post

I am highly considering jumping from my 65vt50 to the 65vt60 but am a bit torn between the vt60 and the Samsung 8500. I primarily watched my tv in a dim lit light controlled environment, so maybe the vt60 would be a better choice for me. Black levels are my highest priorty. I'll see these two sets for the first time in person this coming weekend and then I will make my decision then, but as it stands,I am leaning toward the vt60 as it is virtually identical to the 9g 60" Kuros in terms of black level.

you have nothing to gain ..keep the 50...no need to compare measured levels to the Kuro any longer but performance and the 9G Kuro would still be better as the whites , yellowish on the 60, as well as blacks are still better overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

You may not see as big of a jump as you hope to see......The calibrators when asked, said they wouldnt upgrade form the VT50, but would from generations prior to it....This is especially the case if you ahve your VT50 calibrated, I might wait to see how the greyscale shift they are seeing in these sets falls out in the future before jumping....

+1..yes I remember them saying that
post #895 of 1489
My cursory reading of the VE Shootout results seem to indicate that if one factored out the performance of the reviewed TVs in bright room environments, the VT60 wins hands down. Is this reading correct? And even with the bright room results it won with the pro reviewers. Is this correct as well?
post #896 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

So there was NO real-world video viewing durring this "shootout"?

That would be hilarious. Who buys a TV then only watches disc based content?

Back in the day, Toshiba made a pretty sharp HDTV, looked AWESOME in the store with the store demo. But turn it to anything else and it really stunk. The Sony's of the day wheren't quite as sharp as the Toshiba's with the store demo but completely blew away every other set with normal content that most people would be watching.

I really wanted more regular real world tv viewing but it didn't happen on Day one. Day some were promised to see hockey and a few other sports and live tv, and that didn't happen either. Too bad. Luckily for the Panny's though..the pure whites on the Sammy would have made the yellow whites on the Panny look really bad.
post #897 of 1489
So what we were the results? I haven't been on in a while.
post #898 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuralSex View Post

My cursory reading of the VE Shootout results seem to indicate that if one factored out the performance of the reviewed TVs in bright room environments, the VT60 wins hands down. Is this reading correct? And even with the bright room results it won with the pro reviewers. Is this correct as well?

absolutely not...............the pros were very biased towards the Panny....playing down the tests that showed the Samsung was better...and disregarding the failure of both last year's and this year's on another specific test..as a matter of fact..the Panny's were the only tv's at the show that failed that one test!
post #899 of 1489
post #900 of 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

So what we were the results? I haven't been on in a while.

F8500 won the 'audience' vote

ZT 60 won the 'professionals' vote

All 3 (F8500, ZT60 and VT60) were very very very very close (I'm sure you got the point)

Of note, the VT is actually brighter than the ZT (Due to the filter on it, better for ambient light rejection on the ZT) and the F8500 was almost twice as bright as the Panasonic. Panasonic is looking into this for next year (increase power supply) according to AVJ on 'another' forum wink.gif

I'll find the result chart on my iphone and post it here for you shortly. EDIT: Actually another member just posted the facebook link to the results charts I was gonna post.. take a look at that and see how close it really was.

All three panels are winners imo, great year for plasma displays in 2013 biggrin.gif And huge huge improvement by Samsung.. I'm sure Panasonic will be back with a vengeance next year
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