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Whites? - Page 4

post #91 of 141
Doug,

You know that IRE is an analog TV innovation created for engineering convenience. I know that also and it has been an annoyance to me when people use the term for digital TVs. But apparently Panasonic does not know this or does not care. In their latest 60 series they use the term IRE in both the W/B and gamma calibration menus.

It cannot be avoided anymore and using the correct "percent white" now simply adds more confusion.

Thanks a lot, Panasonic.

Larry
Edited by LarryInRI - 7/9/13 at 1:34pm
post #92 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

But apparently Panasonic does not know this or does not care. In their latest 60 series they use the term IRE in both the W/B and gamma calibration menus.

LG does this too. ... At least in their 10/20pt WB menus. I suppose they assume that anyone that knows how to use these menus, would also be able to process the labeling. wink.gif
post #93 of 141
Thread Starter 
I'll word it differently.What is the difference between the brightness control and the black tone DARK setting on Samsung?

Sorry for all the questions and my confusing comments.Just trying too get the tv looking better.Just about got it figured out.Any helpful replies I do appreciate.

cool.gif
post #94 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

LG does this too. ... At least in their 10/20pt WB menus. I suppose they assume that anyone that knows how to use these menus, would also be able to process the labeling. wink.gif

I am still at a loss to understand why the term for adjusting 'blackness' should be called 'brightness'.

I'm sure any star gazing physicist would be confused by 'brightness' being used in this way.

Who can blame the TV manufacturing Companies when there are such examples of confusing terminology in the Video Science itself.
post #95 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by PE06MCG View Post

I am still at a loss to understand why the term for adjusting 'blackness' should be called 'brightness'.

How bright your black levels are.
Quote:
Brightness

Brightness refers to the intensity allocated to darker colors and shades. It's the most poorly labeled picture setting, and would be more aptly called "Darkness," as in how dark do you want your darks?

It hasn't really changed in tv's as far as I can remember. It was always called brightness back in the 80s. When HDTV's hit they should have just called it, Black Level.
post #96 of 141
Thread Starter 
Standard mode with native color space works the best for bright popping colors on this tv(no cms on pne450).Not sure what the drawbacks are.Guarantee the positives outweigh the negatives.
post #97 of 141
Thread Starter 
What temperature is a high contrast white or white 10-15% patch on a black screen suppose too be? On mine it looks higher than 6500.What temperature is it suppose too be?

Does shiny white have the exact same color temperature as dull dingy gray on a plasma? If your outside and you see suns shiny reflection off object it appears more blue.If I crank up brightness on an iPad it appears more blue.
Edited by Vic12345 - 11/11/13 at 6:38pm
post #98 of 141
You are asking a confused question. There are many shades people would call "white" - like samples from a paint store. You ask for "white paint" and unless you are painting a ceiling, there are probably 100 or 200 colors people would call white.

But there is only one D65 point. And that represents the color of every shade of gray plus white in our TV system.

Everything in an image that measures D65 will be white or gray.

Color temperature is a pretty stupid concept. It does almost nothing to define white because the amount of green in the color has very little effect on the 6500K color temperature. In fact, there are shades of green and magenta that measure a perfect 6500K for color temperature but nobody would call them white.

That's because color temperature is roughly defining the relationship between red and blue with maybe 5% of the color temperature affected by green. When we see something we identify as D65 white, it will really be made up of about 72% green light, 21% red light, and 7% blue light. So when you are talking about color temperature you are covering 100% of the red light in the color and 100% of the blue light in the color, but only maybe 5% of the green color present. Which is dumb because green accounts for 72% of the wavelengths we identify as white (or neutral gray).

So it's more important to focus on D65 to define white and gray -- that accounts for red, green, and blue being in proper proportion to each other.
post #99 of 141
Thread Starter 
What color temperature is a white patch measuring about 10-15% of screen with an all black background?

Am I correct 10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90,100 Ires all contain 72%green light,21% red light,7%blue light.

Seems if I Washout the lower Ires with bias too match the continuously washed out(abl) highest Ires it's balanced gamma out better.I've tried making it look high contrast with high blue,low red but the luminance changes of white becomes too Noticable.And Trying too make it high contrast by darkening gamma either ends up in a very dim screen or a very inconsistent gamma screen(abl caused)).I tried making abl washed out white screens (high picture levels like bright sports and hockey)whiter looking, but there's not enough red for Other programs and inconsistent luminance of whites again.
post #100 of 141
You will never know because you're also affecting gamma. Plus all you're doing is playing the game blindfolded and attempting to stick the donkeys tail on. You need hardware or you'll guess for the remainder of your life.
post #101 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post

What color temperature is a white patch measuring about 10-15% of screen with an all black background?

Am I correct 10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90,100 Ires all contain 72%green light,21% red light,7%blue light.

Seems if I Washout the lower Ires with bias too match the continuously washed out(abl) highest Ires it's balanced gamma out better.I've tried making it look high contrast with high blue,low red but the luminance changes of white becomes too Noticable.And Trying too make it high contrast by darkening gamma either ends up in a very dim screen or a very inconsistent gamma screen(abl caused)).I tried making abl washed out white screens (high picture levels like bright sports and hockey)whiter looking, but there's not enough red for Other programs and inconsistent luminance of whites again.

The correct White temprerature is D6500K, which is a co-ordinate of 313x 329y. That is the white you are looking to set your tv too. Without a accurate meter and software to measure your actual greyscale it's pretty much a crap shoot. I would just set your tv to factory defaults. Use a test disk and set the basic picture parameters up, Contrast, Brightness, Color and Sharpness. Leave everything else at default. Use Movie Mode.
post #102 of 141
Yikers, so many "off" questions and replies...

A test pattern has no color temperature. The light produced by the TV or projector has a color temperature and for consumer video, that color temperature is 6500K but as explained in an earlier post in this thread, color temperature is a stupid and nearly worthless concept when you are trying to define accuracy in images because 6500K is very little affected by the amount of green or magenta in the image. In fact, there are shades of green and magenta that will measure 6500K with no problem. So STOP THINKING IN TERMS OF COLOR TEMPERATURE. D65 is the point in color space where all shades of white and gray should fall (for consumer video sources and displays). D65 represents a single point in the color space and at that single point, red, green, and blue will ALL be in proper balance, color temperature will be 6500K but remember, that's only going to tell you that red and blue are in proper balance and green is barely represented (leading to huge potential errors if you aren't focused on the D65 point).

Also... there is NO SUCH THING as IRE in Digital Video. Any manufacturer or software company who uses IRE is making a mistake. IRE is an analog video concept that defines the analog voltage level for white. There are no analog voltages in digital video, so using IRE now is just plain wrong and can be very misleading since consumer video's BLACK (0% white) is IRE 7.5 when you are working in analog video. If you are talking to someone who understands IRE and uses it correctly, you can end up confusing each other significantly because IRE and % white are NOT always interchangeable. In digital video we should only ever use % white or digital levels (like 16-235).

Lastly, there's no such thing as D6500K... you have D65 or 6500K but not both together -- well, that's not quite right. The color temperature of the D65 point is indeed 6500K, but there are many coordinates that will measure 6500K for color temperature, but only ONE of them is the D65 point where red, green, and blue are all in proper balance for white and shades of gray. And D6500 doesn't exist, if you see that, the person typing it just doesn't know enough about the topic yet.
post #103 of 141
Thread Starter 
Ok..My adjustments are less red than warm2.Mine looks more yellow.It looks smooth and balanced now.....Ive no more wacky high contrast blue tone.That causes bad gradation,inaccurate gamma,luminance.The thing that's caused the most grief on this tv is the small white areas are more blue than rest of picture especially if I turn contrast past mid 80s and blue gain isn't set right(which has been difficult).

George- do I get a participation badge for trying? LOL
post #104 of 141
Please invest in a meter even a basic one with free software is better than shooting in the dark
post #105 of 141
+1, for 200$ a Display 3 + colorHCFR V3 (free) you can calibrate your display wink.gif
post #106 of 141
I'd love to see how many of the posts in this thread tell Vic to get a meter (it's gotta be at least 15-20). I'd count them myself but I don't think that he's really interested in learning anything here. And well, I don't roll that way.
post #107 of 141
$149 for Calman 5 Tutorial version and C3 meter.
post #108 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugnax555 View Post

I'd love to see how many of the posts in this thread tell Vic to get a meter (it's gotta be at least 15-20). I'd count them myself but I don't think that he's really interested in learning anything here. And well, I don't roll that way.
Vic12345 is either unwilling, or incapable of learning new ways of thinking. That has been thoroughly demonstrated in this thread and elsewhere. Others have become frustrated in attempting to help him.
Quote:
George- do I get a participation badge for trying?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4yd2W50No&list=PL_mEH1XR_aVEKcu4x9mnb4Lq8V0q3qhAs
Edited by GeorgeAB - 11/14/13 at 8:14am
post #109 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Please invest in a meter even a basic one with free software is better than shooting in the dark

Quote:
Originally Posted by realzven View Post

+1, for 200$ a Display 3 + colorHCFR V3 (free) you can calibrate your display wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by willieconway View Post

$149 for Calman 5 Tutorial version and C3 meter.

all great options to get started
post #110 of 141
I can relate to Vic as I calibrated my LG LCD TV to my liking without a meter. There are diehards like Doug that ram it home for you and discourage the learning process by saying you cant do it without a meter. I learned what things like Black Level, IRE, CMS, and the PC input label were all by using the TV and tinkering. Use a red green or blue pluge pattern and make it look smooth by adjusting that color's IRE that's half the work.

Note: the Black Level setting on an HDTV does control true black voltage, but only overcome the difference between RGB true black and YCbCr true black. This is why if you don't match the setting to the source, contrast and brightness will be offset.

You can't brick a TV without getting into the service menu unlike forcing incompatible firmware on your phone. That's why its OK to tinker with your TV settings and if you get frustrated, there's always a video reset option in the menu.

Yeah people will give you settings for your exact TV, but its what the viewer of the TV prefers. There is an obvious reason why you don't use enhancements like DCR or cool temperature, but the difference between using warm 1 and warm 2 may not be. Show him his way to the AVS test patterns disc calibration page instead.
Edited by MDA400 - 11/14/13 at 9:06am
post #111 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDA400 View Post

.......Yeah people will give you settings for your exact TV, but its what the viewer of the TV prefers. There is an obvious reason why you don't use enhancements like DCR or cool temperature, but the difference between using warm 1 and warm 2 may not be. Show him his way to the AVS test patterns disc calibration page instead.
And here lies the root of the disconnect for so many video hobbyists who venture into this section of the forum. Calibration is not about what individual viewers prefer. It's about alignment to internationally recognized standards and recommended practice. Preference begins where calibration, display accuracy, and image fidelity leave off, for those who don't value fidelity.

'Display Calibration: Root Fundamentals'
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933
Edited by GeorgeAB - 11/14/13 at 9:45am
post #112 of 141
But the point is that you are on a calibration sub forum, calibration requires a meter and software. If you want to tinker with your TV not a thing wrong with that but doing so by eye is not going to be meet here with much enthusiasm. If you want to learn there are lots of other places to do it without cluttering up this forum with questions that have been answered multiple times.
post #113 of 141
Greetings

After a while they they are just there to push your buttons ... and nothing else. Right and wrong have nothing to do with anything. It's only about the buttons.

regards
post #114 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDA400 View Post

I can relate to Vic as I calibrated my LG LCD TV to my liking without a meter. There are diehards like Doug that ram it home for you and discourage the learning process by saying you cant do it without a meter. I learned what things like Black Level, IRE, CMS, and the PC input label were all by using the TV and tinkering. Use a red green or blue pluge pattern and make it look smooth by adjusting that color's IRE that's half the work.

Note: the Black Level setting on an HDTV does control true black voltage, but only overcome the difference between RGB true black and YCbCr true black. This is why if you don't match the setting to the source, contrast and brightness will be offset.

You can't brick a TV without getting into the service menu unlike forcing incompatible firmware on your phone. That's why its OK to tinker with your TV settings and if you get frustrated, there's always a video reset option in the menu.

Yeah people will give you settings for your exact TV, but its what the viewer of the TV prefers. There is an obvious reason why you don't use enhancements like DCR or cool temperature, but the difference between using warm 1 and warm 2 may not be. Show him his way to the AVS test patterns disc calibration page instead.

You are delusional. Human vision cannot even "calibrate" white accurately because of the way human vision works (the brightest and bluest thing in our field of vision becomes "white" even if it is not). This forum thread is for people who want accurate images not "pleasing" images and that is impossible to achieve without a meter and software. We aren't ramming anything -- people who come to this forum thread are (or should be) interested in image accuracy, not in some fantasy that you can do that without a meter and software.
post #115 of 141
Whoa... That's harsh.

Of course the human eye cannot calibrate as well as a meter but ask yourself this... How do you watch your screen? With a meter or with your eyes. The meter should/could be the starting point but in the end you should do the final tweaking by eye.

Same goes for audio - an SPL meter will give you accurate volume calibration and built in set-up functions may tweak the equalization but the result is based on what a microphone with all it's idiosyncrasies hears and not what the human ear "sees."

Final user based adjustments are necessary to adjust for a pleasing human experience.

Cheers
Steven
post #116 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by mluder View Post

Whoa... That's harsh.

Of course the human eye cannot calibrate as well as a meter but ask yourself this... How do you watch your screen? With a meter or with your eyes. The meter should/could be the starting point but in the end you should do the final tweaking by eye.

Same goes for audio - an SPL meter will give you accurate volume calibration and built in set-up functions may tweak the equalization but the result is based on what a microphone with all it's idiosyncrasies hears and not what the human ear "sees."

Final user based adjustments are necessary to adjust for a pleasing human experience.

Cheers
Steven

I calibrate my display to get an accurate picture. A pleasing experience has nothing to do with it.

From Wikipedia:
Calibration is a comparison between measurements – one of known magnitude or correctness made or set with one device and another measurement made in as similar a way as possible with a second device.
post #117 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by mluder View Post

Whoa... That's harsh.

Of course the human eye cannot calibrate as well as a meter but ask yourself this... How do you watch your screen? With a meter or with your eyes. The meter should/could be the starting point but in the end you should do the final tweaking by eye.

Same goes for audio - an SPL meter will give you accurate volume calibration and built in set-up functions may tweak the equalization but the result is based on what a microphone with all it's idiosyncrasies hears and not what the human ear "sees."

Final user based adjustments are necessary to adjust for a pleasing human experience.

Cheers
Steven

Some of your points are valid, but remember that calibrating any piece of equipment, whether it's an oscilloscope, an MRI unit, or a display, is adjusting it to a set of standards, not to taste. Your eyes are good at comparing things-dark grey side by side with black, different shades of white side by side, etc.-but not at determining absolutes. Adjust your TV the way you want to. Just don't call it "calibration".
Edited by Rolls-Royce - 11/14/13 at 4:21pm
post #118 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by mluder View Post

Whoa... That's harsh.

In what way? sure he can be a bit brash but things always come across the wrong way via text when it was never meant to be taken that way. He's honest though yet he has many good quotes and it's a fact! I want to see or as close as what the studios use and see. Not personal preference.
Quote:
Of course the human eye cannot calibrate as well as a meter but ask yourself this… How do you watch your screen? With a meter or with your eyes. The meter should/could be the starting point but in the end you should do the final tweaking by eye.

Cheers
Steven

How can you tweak by eye? I've been there. What you think might look good doesn't meet the designated targets or try and get a low error as possible if you can't meet the target.

I don't know how you could describe a calibrated picture. It's like that feeling when you admire a professional DSLR photo shoot/magazine or one of those extremely classy thick studio books with the super thick matt and subtle glossy paper. Everything is so smooth and naturally rich.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

is adjusting it to a set of standards, not to taste.

I've seen some peoples taste in things. Look at film reviews. That persons standard could be awful.
Quote:
Your eyes are good at comparing things-dark grey side by side with black, different shades of white side by side, etc.-but not at determining absolutes. Adjust your TV the way you want to. Just don't call it "calibration".

Are you sure? I've seen people say blacks are good when they were in fact crushed. Or so much detail that it was grey. Even printouts and self made portfolio books while comparing.
Edited by xvfx - 11/14/13 at 4:50pm
post #119 of 141
I find it interesting that people who may never have seen a properly calibrated display let alone lived with one long enough to notice the subtleties and nuances calibration can bring out argue about it. The OP would have more credibility if he had a pro calibrated set to use as a reference, certainly not an iPad.
post #120 of 141
Thread Starter 
My tv has 2 point white balance only,and no cms.The small improvements and hassle dont justify me getting a meter."I have put myself through a lot of anxiety screwing around with tvs colors for years already".There were a few things that i wanted improvement about the tv and has been hard too figure out,but I've figured an acceptable adjustment..The iPad is still better than human vision,and iPad tested that show that it's an accurate display.

Doug B - Do you know if lowering brightness on ipad too minimum is the same color as a low picture level( not much abl)on a plasma? In other words does the color temperature change when you lower brightness? On an ipad that is "displaying an all white screen "it has what looks like a murky green color compared too when the brightness is cranked up.

I have a feeling the small white areas (and some large),and white news bars are always going too look a bit too shiny luminous.When im adjusting im wanting it too still look acceptable for hockey which often looks yellow,red and dull.
Edited by Vic12345 - 11/15/13 at 3:22am
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