or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › plasma....it's just not that good. I'm not trolling!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

plasma....it's just not that good. I'm not trolling! - Page 6  

post #151 of 202
Might want to reassess as to what exactly you agree about (i.e. follow the thread and see his latest opinion). Also, you should look up the recent Value Electronics shootout where the 3 flagship plasmas were in a face-off against some LED-LCDs. The latter didn't fare that well.
post #152 of 202
Thread Starter 
I think it's the best 42 inch ever made...but, it's still not better than a high end 34" crt at creating a pic which feels like reality.

The gradation is really poor...and really visible in people's faces. Faces look like cartoons or something...just unnatural and very non HD. Everyone looks like they were out in the sun all day. Otherwise, I don't have issue with gradation...just faces. For this reason, perhaps a 50" gt or better might be a better choice for me. I will evaluate one and see.

And yes...it still is noisy. But, much better since pulling it out of high drive mode. But, in general... look at a sky, or a bunch of grass...the noise will be readily visible to anyone with just average vision. a field of grass just looks wrong...it's noisy and jumpy. Not smooth and natural...same goes for a sky scene.
post #153 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno 
And yes...it still is noisy. But, much better since pulling it out of high drive mode. But, in general... look at a sky, or a bunch of grass...the noise will be readily visible to anyone with just average vision. a field of grass just looks wrong...it's noisy and jumpy. Not smooth and natural...same goes for a sky scene.

I have not noticed this at all on my P50S60, and I watch alot of video content. (have over 100 blu-rays, watch alot of TV and streaming, etc...)
post #154 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno View Post

I think it's the best 42 inch ever made...but, it's still not better than a high end 34" crt at creating a pic which feels like reality.

The gradation is really poor...and really visible in people's faces. Faces look like cartoons or something...just unnatural and very non HD. Everyone looks like they were out in the sun all day. Otherwise, I don't have issue with gradation...just faces. For this reason, perhaps a 50" gt or better might be a better choice for me. I will evaluate one and see.

And yes...it still is noisy. But, much better since pulling it out of high drive mode. But, in general... look at a sky, or a bunch of grass...the noise will be readily visible to anyone with just average vision. a field of grass just looks wrong...it's noisy and jumpy. Not smooth and natural...same goes for a sky scene.

You very clearly have a poorly calibrated set. So either you're trolling or you're simply not the calibration expert you claim to be. Doesn't matter which. Bottom line, your set needs to be properly calibrated. End of story.
post #155 of 202
Thread Starter 
again...calibration will not cure noise or low gradation...I don't expect you to see it, as you likely aren't familiar with a proper reference to begin with. but, it's not difficult to see.

It's not crazy noisy...but it's a noisy image nonetheless, and the faces are definitely lacking in gradation. I am not trolling or stirring the pot...these are my observations. If you don't see it...good for you. I wish I was you. But, no amount of trying to discredit me will make these issues go away...just be glad you don't see them. Stop wasting your time trying to discredit me. If you disagree, that's fine.

Fairchild, name some of your blu-rays...I'll watch some content on the same title(s) and see if I notice anything.

Also, most of my viewing thus far is via cablebox hd...and thus, it may have some responsibility here. It's just not that likely...but possible. I'll check ota HD tonight...and view some more Blu-rays...although I only have about 10 discs.

Do you have any of:

Shawshank Redemption
Scream
The Professional
T2
Top Gun
I am Legend
Unforgiven
Enemy of the State
mission Impossible

And, share your ballpark settings with me for comparison purposes.

Ben
post #156 of 202
http://www.blu-ray.com/community/collection.php?u=127107

That is my entire collection. Last movies I've seen are Sin City, Iron Man 2 and Iron Man 1, The Big Bang Theory S2 discs...

Settings I use are in my sig. I am using the Cinema settings and I recently re-checked my calibration with my Colormunki Photo and everything is holding solid at 700+ hours, I only had to tweak the Red CMS settings a tad bit.

I also view all my blu-rays through my HTPC. I use MadVR (bicubic75 + AR with 0-255 in MadVR), Lav Filters, MPC-HC and outputting 0-255 RGB Full from my 7870 ATI and my TV set to Nonstandard.
post #157 of 202
Thread Starter 
JayPSU, it's not end of story...this is the story for every plasma I've ever seen. And it's not a huge deal..but it is a noisy picture in general. And gradation is lousy...in general. If you disagree, that's fine...but you cannot say with absolution that I'm just watching a poorly calibrated set (especially when calibration doesn't cure noise or gradation issues)...it's just not true. Although now I've opened the door for a couple pages of replies that portray me as such. Which is fine...I don't really care.

noise to me might be something you don't even see...so, until we both calibrate our definition of noise, there's nothing to argue about.

And again...it's not horrible noise. But, it's noise...the picture is always noisy to some degree. I am just perplexed that with so much information in the HD signal, why would there be ANY noise at all...just the limitations of the display technology. Which I think is still insufficient.
post #158 of 202
Also the source has to do alot with noise. Pop in a blu-ray such as Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs or Brave which are animated films, and there is hardly any grain/noise in the picture, it's smooth as can be. Then pop in a blu-ray such as Saving Private Ryan which still has amazing detail but it has tons of film grain/noise in it.
post #159 of 202
fairchild, why didn't you post this ? I was looking for this video like 2 pages back, too bad I didn't have it then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=X6Xr9v-FfHY

Again proper calibration. See ya!
post #160 of 202
Go buy an LCD and get on with your life.

/end thread
post #161 of 202
Thread Starter 
obviously if you put up a black screen and raise the brightness of a certain color you will see dither dots in that color...doesn't mean anything on normal content, just a black screen. The noise I am referring to is totally different than that. It's a lot more subtle, yet..it's there...unquestionably.

I would get an lcd if it were overall better...but I don't think it is.
post #162 of 202
And the beat goes on.........
G44




Ian
post #163 of 202
Thread Starter 
a black screen with white text is jet black on this set...no issues there.
post #164 of 202
Yeah, jet black might be ok. But how about across the grayscale? If you watched the video you'd see he showed a specific part of the gray scale and how making sure each RGB level is properly set the dither sparkley noise goes away. You'd also notice that on that gray scale pattern, the only part that was affected was the setting he changed, which was specific to the IRE level the control was for and didn't cause dither in the other areas.

Black might be ok on your set, but 10 IRE or 30 or 60 might not be ok. The reason you notice a lot of noise on regular content is because somewhere in your "calibration" something is off. That's why nearly everyone here has and still does recommend a proper calibration. Getting your contrast, brightness, white balance, gray balance, gamma, and color (yes, primaries and secondaries as well) set up accurately should minimize this and you'll see far less dancing sparkles on regular content. Once you get that done, then the only dithering you should see is when there isn't enough gradients to make a color, so in those cases you'll get dither no matter what. But a proper cal will minimize it.

Now, you have limited cal control on your set, so you'll have to make due with a 2 point gray scale adjustment, but at least you have the primaries as well and make sure one is not being driven too hard over another. Which is what I told you pages and pages ago. But you can still ignore it if you wish, spout that you know better, and complain that calibration does nothing.
post #165 of 202
Thread Starter 
look...he changed every colors brightness against a black background...there is no magical setting which would otherwise make noise disappear...except when you artificially create it against a black background and then make it disappear. My set does not do that...that video is completely irrelevant.

I'm not even convinced that I'm seeing dither per say...at any rate, the noise is not like a totally different color or anything. You're way off the mark. Let's see him make noise disappear in a medium bright scene that is not just a single color. That's just a ridiculous comparison to draw into what I'm seeing. If I had complained about seeing individual sparklies of red, green and blue when I have a black screen up...then sure, your point is valid.

I do realize that what annoys me about the picture (and it's better than it was) is likely not objectionable to most people. So, don't be too concerned...It's just plasma tech, not a calibration issue.
post #166 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno View Post

look...he changed every colors brightness against a black background...there is no magical setting which would otherwise make noise disappear...except when you artificially create it against a black background and then make it disappear. My set does not do that...that video is completely irrelevant.

I'm not even convinced that I'm seeing dither per say...at any rate, the noise is not like a totally different color or anything. You're way off the mark. Let's see him make noise disappear in a medium bright scene that is not just a single color. That's just a ridiculous comparison to draw into what I'm seeing. If I had complained about seeing individual sparklies of red, green and blue when I have a black screen up...then sure, your point is valid.

I do realize that what annoys me about the picture (and it's better than it was) is likely not objectionable to most people. So, don't be too concerned...It's just plasma tech, not a calibration issue.

What he was doing was an example of how you can get noise from improper settings. Man, you're so dense, why can you not see that? You don't see how that can be an issue on regular viewing content? If the middle of the gray scale is all out of whack but the blacks and whites are ok, then on regular content where much of the content falls in the mid spectrum, you'll get problems.

Plasma "noise" boils down to 3 things. Bad sharpness setting, creating artificial artifacts all over the place, bad calibration causing dither sparkles amongst other issues, and finally a noisy and bad video signal. Each problem can escalate the other. If there is signal noise, it gets "enhanced" by improper sharpness as each piece of signal noise will have sharpness artifacts around it and further worsened once you factor in bad calibration with dither sparkles all over the place. If dither is ok and not sparkling, then that means sharpness and noise could still be causing issues. If sharpness is off, and dither isn't sparkling, then that means the signal is noisy and problematic.

At that point, you might want to consider upgrading your video source or enabling such things as noise reduction filters and the like.

Again, if your set is properly calibrated (like EVERYONE has been telling you to do, lol) and you still get terrible noise, then it's the video source.
post #167 of 202
This has nothing at all to do with calibration and little to do with the source. Plasma suffers from dithering, which is what is causing the noise (google "screen door effect"). It makes everything look kind of soft and not sharp. I am going to see if the 2013 models have fixed this, but since it is inherent to the technology I'm not expecting miracles. It sounds like the 8500 from samsung might have solved the dimness issue though.
Edited by aypues - 5/28/13 at 1:38am
post #168 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by aypues View Post

This has nothing at all to do with calibration and little to do with the source. Plasma suffers from dithering, which is what is causing the noise (google "screen door effect"). It makes everything look kind of soft and not sharp. I am going to see if the 2013 models have fixed this, but since it is inherent to the technology I'm not expecting miracles. It sounds like the 8500 from samsung might have solved the dimness issue though.

Screen door effect is associated with older 720p plasmas not an issue anymore at least bring accurate data to the table
post #169 of 202
i'm still curious if you can see the noise/dithering from further away and if not, why not try a larger screen(that's also better quality) and sit a couple feet further back?

just seems like 9feet is pretty close, to any size tv, and that could be a big reason you can see these things that we can't from our viewing distances
post #170 of 202
^I shudder to think how you would describe 6 feet away from a 50" (which is an ideal seating distance to resolve all 1080p detail). wink.gif On my pro-calibrated Kuro, even that distance pretty much masks the dither unless I'm straining to see it.
post #171 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

i'm still curious if you can see the noise/dithering from further away and if not, why not try a larger screen(that's also better quality) and sit a couple feet further back?

just seems like 9feet is pretty close, to any size tv, and that could be a big reason you can see these things that we can't from our viewing distances

I personally wouldn't consider 9ft being too close to a tv. Especially his 42". smile.gif
post #172 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^I shudder to think how you would describe 6 feet away from a 50" (which is an ideal seating distance to resolve all 1080p detail). wink.gif On my pro-calibrated Kuro, even that distance pretty much masks the dither unless I'm straining to see it.

i'm not talking size to viewing distance. i'm talking straight up viewing distance.

my first row of seating is about 12' and i downscaled my screen from 120" to 100" due to some room remodelling.

my point is that the closer you sit, the more flaws you see, period. i'll see more flaws in a 20" from 4feet away than i'll see on a 60" from 6feet away.

maybe i'm alone in this observation.


and please please please do NOT lump me in with HIS comments. i do NOT see any dithering, noise or other 'issues' on my f8500 from more than about 5feet away. i'm fully satisfied with plasma technology in those regards, and believe it's the best option out there right now.

i just happen to find sitting that close to any display to be uncomfortable and more unforgiving than sitting further back.

i mean we've crossed off all the logical things he can try, that only leaves the illogical solutions left...
post #173 of 202
Relax, fella, I wasn't lumping you with him. wink.gif I didn't know you were referring to a projector screen when you made that generalized statement about 9 feet being too close. In fact, the "any size TV" clause especially threw me for a loop.
post #174 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Screen door effect is associated with older 720p plasmas not an issue anymore at least bring accurate data to the table

It's definetly still around on 1080p tvs. I see it all over my buddy's Panasonic. If you google it there are lots of active threads still talking about it.
post #175 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

i'm not talking size to viewing distance. i'm talking straight up viewing distance.

my first row of seating is about 12' and i downscaled my screen from 120" to 100" due to some room remodelling.

my point is that the closer you sit, the more flaws you see, period. i'll see more flaws in a 20" from 4feet away than i'll see on a 60" from 6feet away.

maybe i'm alone in this observation.


So this means in your observation, you would pretty much see the same amount of flaws comparing a 42" Plasma at 6 feet to a 65" Plasma at 6 feet? Since distance is the primary factor?
post #176 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by aypues View Post

It's definetly still around on 1080p tvs. I see it all over my buddy's Panasonic. If you google it there are lots of active threads still talking about it.

Heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend .....
post #177 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Relax, fella, I wasn't lumping you with him. wink.gif I didn't know you were referring to a projector screen when you made that generalized statement about 9 feet being too close. In fact, the "any size TV" clause especially threw me for a loop.

no, I was just using the projector as an example. I still feel 9feet is pretty close for tv viewing. I just don't like being that close to the screen. if I did, i'd save myself a heck of a lot of money and buy a smaller tv and sit closer as well. I just don't enjoy it as much.

I suppose any size, is a stretch, but I did still mean 'normal' sizes in the 40-60" range.
post #178 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbleboyjones View Post

So this means in your observation, you would pretty much see the same amount of flaws comparing a 42" Plasma at 6 feet to a 65" Plasma at 6 feet? Since distance is the primary factor?

not ALL of them, and not exactly equal. I find some things, dithering specifically, to be more dependent on viewing distance than size:distance ratio. i'm sure some things scale up exactly, but there's a lot of stuff that doesn't. so i'm saying looking at a screen twice as big from twice as far away actually looks better, not the same

my best example, which unfortunately as nothing to do with TV's, is the screen texture on a projector/screen combo. the screen texture is directly related to viewing distance, and has nothing to do with distance/size ratio. I guess that's like being able to see fingerprints on the tv. not exactly a great example, but it's the most noticeable one.

i'm NOT SURE, how some other things scale up. I haven't looked at thousands of TV's and measured these things directly. it just appears to me that SOME things look much less noticeable from a distance and don't scale up with the size.
post #179 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by aypues View Post

It's definetly still around on 1080p tvs. I see it all over my buddy's Panasonic. If you google it there are lots of active threads still talking about it.

Heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend .....

I had to look up screen door effect....seems that is primarily a name for a problem with projectors. Had to search for a reference specifically for plasma panels. Thought at first it was a dyslexic version of "DSE". Still think some of you guys look like you're about this close with these glasses to see that sort of effect:

post #180 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I had to look up screen door effect....seems that is primarily a name for a problem with projectors. Had to search for a reference specifically for plasma panels. Thought at first it was a dyslexic version of "DSE". Still think some of you guys look like you're about this close with these glasses to see that sort of effect:

SDE is worse on some models than others, but it is a problem that can be very easily seen from normal viewing distance on some plasmas. I think my 2010 720p LG is fine in this regard, but I've seen other 720p plasmas that were clearly worse than mine, including last year's X5. If you go to a store and look at 720p models up close, you won't have trouble seeing it.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Plasma Flat Panel Displays
This thread is locked  
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › plasma....it's just not that good. I'm not trolling!