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Do I really need Expensive Speakers for Home Theater? - Page 2

post #31 of 76
Actually I like both KEF and PSB speakers very much, in general, and have owned both the PSB Image T6 (for 2 years)and the KEF iQ9 speakers (for 5 years), and liked both of them a lot.

I also have owned Vandersteen speakers for 30 years in my main audio system in one home and recently upgraded from the Model 3A to the Treo. I also recommend them highly when someone seems to be shopping in that price range (which is not that often). The Treo is one of the best speakers I have ever heard.

I do not "push" any speaker; I state my opinion of them, based on my experience. What you keep saying is "well-known" is obviously just your own erroneous opinion. Did you take an opinion poll to find out what is "well-known"? That would be the only way to find out WHAT is actually "well-known". What nonsense!

If you look at the impedance curves for the two speakers, which tells the story better than a nominal rating, I think they show that the PSB speakers are easier to drive overall. Their higher sensitivity, which you mention, also tends to prove me correct.

I only make a specific recommendation when my experience and the budget and/or listening preferences of the OP seem to suggest something that will be appropriate and helpful to him. It might be Wharfedale, PSB, Vandersteen, KEF, Boston Acoustics, Monitor Audio, Gallo Acoustics, or any of several other brands, depending on what seems to meet the needs of the OP best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

Care to quantify this statement? The Kef are 8 ohm 89dB sensitivity, the PSB 6 ohm 91dB. While it's well-known that you like to push those PSB speakers, you should probably find a more accurate argument for doing so.

Edited by commsysman - 5/19/13 at 5:41pm
post #32 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

You don't need an expensive boutique amp, power is power.

You'll never get that across to a certain poster. One that believes power is not power and that some have magical unicorn capabilities. Hometheater receivers use cheap digital circuits that "dirty" up the sound. Anything larger than a small sealed 12" can't sound good. EQ and ANY type of features in a receiver destroys the sound. True ID brands are no good. Stereophile is always right. How can you debate or even try and reason with someone like that? rolleyes.gif
post #33 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post


" Are some amplifiers bad for some speakers & vice-versa? Yes. "




THIS is what I meant by "synergy". Apparently I should have said it in different terms, but this is EXACTLY what I was referring to!!! Nothing else was implied or intended.

I thought that the rest of my statements sort of explained that, but it would seem that some people couldn't be bothered to read ALL of what I said before going off on some tangent of their own and putting words in my mouth that do not belong there.

.

Edited by commsysman - 5/19/13 at 4:48pm
post #34 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I do not "push" any speaker; I state my opinion of them, based on my experience. What you keep saying is "well-known" is obviously just your own erroneous opinion.. Did you take an opinion poll to find out what is "well-known? What nonsense!

Yes you do. Its easy to find, just go back and research all your posts. You "push" PSB or KEF or Gallo onto the poster regardless of what they are asking about, while at the same time coming up with BS reasons why everyone elses recommendations are no good.
post #35 of 76
The problem with your so-called "research" is that it is biased and highly selective; you just pick out what seems to prove your point and ignore the things that prove you wrong, and any OBJECTIVE researcher would find a LOT that proves you wrong.

Any person with an axe to grind can use the Bible in the same selective way to supposedly "prove" or "disprove" practically anything, from the morality of slavery to the desirability of capital punishment.

Selective research proves nothing. It just provides you with a false position to base inaccurate conclusions on.



Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Yes you do. Its easy to find, just go back and research all your posts. You "push" PSB or KEF or Gallo onto the poster regardless of what they are asking about, while at the same time coming up with BS reasons why everyone elses recommendations are no good.

Edited by commsysman - 5/19/13 at 4:59pm
post #36 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post


THIS is what I meant by "synergy" Apparently I should have said it in different terms, but this is EXACTLY what I was referring to!!! Nothing else was implied or intended.

.

How is the synergy with the "Audioquest Indigo Blue Bi-Wired Speaker Cables"?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1424161/audioquest-indigo-blue-bi-wired-speaker-cables
post #37 of 76
Quote:
Do I really need Expensive Speakers for Home Theater?
No, but you do need speakers that will play loud cleanly.

ChaseHomeTheater's SHO-10s were phenomenal in that respect, for both HT and music. And they were relatively inexpensive. The successors to the SHO-10s are the MS-10s, but I haven't read much about them yet. Their new M-1 Monitor speakers, however, are reportedly quite impressive and, at $125/ea., quite affordable.
post #38 of 76
How can one consider the possible "synergy" until you say exactly which amplifier and speakers they will be used with?

It is interaction I am talking about, and until you say what the cables will be interacting with, there can be no way to consider the possibility of synergy.

I can say this; they have worked very well with most of the speakers and amplifiers they have been used with in my home over a number of years.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Badouri View Post

How is the synergy with the "Audioquest Indigo Blue Bi-Wired Speaker Cables"?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1424161/audioquest-indigo-blue-bi-wired-speaker-cables

Edited by commsysman - 5/19/13 at 4:54pm
post #39 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

That's not why I said they are stable to 2 ohm loads. I said they were because they are.

Sure, stable to go into protection mode.
post #40 of 76
Back to the OP and his question for a change of pace...

Do you need expensive speakers? Not necessarily.

Do you need major brand name speakers from a brick and mortar, or should you try some of the internet-direct offerings, or should you go with a kit and assemble it yourself, or start from scratch and do it yourself completely? They're all valid ways to go, with varying levels of risk and work involved and increasing bang for the buck as you go down that line and that's without considering a furniture-type finish if that's important to you or not. Keep in mind listening to speakers in a store has little to do with listening to them in your own room, so if you are going to buy speakers you might try a few in-home trials first. With that Pioneer 1522 you've got then you might consider more sensitive speakers over less sensitive speakers, and more at 8 ohm rated speakers than lower impedance rated speakers (but ohm rating is just a nominal number, speaker impedance ranges quite a bit with each speaker, too).

How big is your room? Do you want to listen at reference levels? What is your budget?

What about the sub? You really can't have the theater experience with small bookshelf or even small floorstanding speakers alone...they simply don't have the lower end you need for a good home theater type experience.
post #41 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

It's like a broken record, isn't it?

Some people think 20 lbs of metal is heavier than 40 lbs of paper. biggrin.gif

And somehow a 69WPC measured Cambridge AVR has more power output than a 96WPC measured Denon AVR.

Nothing we could say would make sense to them. Ever. biggrin.gif

Cambridge 551:
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 111.3 watts
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 81.2 watts
Seven channels driven con- tinuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 69.4 watts

Denon 3312:
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 143.3 watts
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 103.0 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 1% distortion at 96.8 watts

Thanks for providing factual information!
Some of the older Onkyos (the 805, 905, 875, and 876) have impressive amp sections as well.
post #42 of 76
Yes; that is excellent information. Thank you for providing it, Acu.

It's too bad that this kind of specific useful information is totally unavailable from the largely deceptive manufacturers' websites or literature (except for Cambridge).

Home Theater magazine provides a badly needed service when they do this kind of testing and provide these objective results (I am sure that is where you got it).

What would be even more useful would be the same kind of information relative to driving 4 ohm loads and 6 ohm loads. That would be much more useful, since so few speakers are actually 8 ohm loads or above over the audio frequency range.

The Denon 3312 is one of the very few that CAN measure up to the demands of a lot of speakers, and costs under $1000. It is a very good value, and its superior design is commendable.

As I said, there are VERY FEW HT RECEIVERS for under $1000 that do not have cheap inadequate power supplies and poor amplifier performance. It's nice that you could find ONE at least...lol.

I stand by that statement; VERY FEW.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Interspy24 View Post

Thanks for providing factual information!
Some of the older Onkyos (the 805, 905, 875, and 876) have impressive amp sections as well.

Edited by commsysman - 5/19/13 at 6:00pm
post #43 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Back to the OP and his question for a change of pace...

Do you need expensive speakers? Not necessarily.

Do you need major brand name speakers from a brick and mortar, or should you try some of the internet-direct offerings, or should you go with a kit and assemble it yourself, or start from scratch and do it yourself completely? They're all valid ways to go, with varying levels of risk and work involved and increasing bang for the buck as you go down that line and that's without considering a furniture-type finish if that's important to you or not. Keep in mind listening to speakers in a store has little to do with listening to them in your own room, so if you are going to buy speakers you might try a few in-home trials first. With that Pioneer 1522 you've got then you might consider more sensitive speakers over less sensitive speakers, and more at 8 ohm rated speakers than lower impedance rated speakers (but ohm rating is just a nominal number, speaker impedance ranges quite a bit with each speaker, too).

How big is your room? Do you want to listen at reference levels? What is your budget?

What about the sub? You really can't have the theater experience with small bookshelf or even small floorstanding speakers alone...they simply don't have the lower end you need for a good home theater type experience.
Great post! If you have the ability to put a box together the SEOS designs are a phenomenal value. If you can't put a crossover together they can do solder it up for a fee.
post #44 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

bla bla bla
Great post! If you have the ability to put a box together the SEOS designs are a phenomenal value. If you can't put a crossover together they can do solder it up for a fee.

Thanks! I've been drooling over the SEOS waveguide complete kits....but I have no workshop/garage and no real good workspace for these indoors where I currently live so am reluctant to try and put some together (not that part so much) and finish (the bigger issue). The bang for the buck seems incredible after reading some of the get together and build threads for them. Maybe this summer will allow a part indoor part outdoor finishing area.

OP - www.diysoundgroup.com for looking at what the offerings are....the main guy there is Erich H here on the forums.
post #45 of 76
No. You don't have to spend a lot to get good sound for movies/TV.
If that's your reason for getting speakers there really is no good reason to really spend more than what the Infinity P163 bookself cost.
I think the Infinity Primus P162(older version same speaker) is a better TV and Movie speaker than the PSBs I have.

Now if music is part of the process the Infinity are not bad speakers I just want something that just a touch better. Music is so much more enjoyable with a good speaker.
The Infinity aren't bad I like them with music as well but you really don't have to spend a lot more than what they cost to get even better for example you can get a
Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 for $349 a pair or a deal on Mordaunt Short Aviano 1 or 2 for $250-$300 a pair. And there is other speakers out there too that are good deals.
Like Boston Acoustics from accesories4less although they don't seem to have the bookshelves anymore at the great price they did.
Edited by nothingspecial - 5/19/13 at 7:26pm
post #46 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

Sure, stable to go into protection mode.

Not true.

When our rep brought a sample 730 over (about a month ago) and told me the amp section was durable and high quality I asked him to explain because I was skeptical. I wasn't a big Yamaha fan and had been predisposed against it from past dealings but he wanted me to consider making a switch from Denon/Marantz and said they redid their approach the last model cycle. He said the amp sections in the Aventage could handle 4ohm easily so I decided to try it. I had 2 pair of bookshelf speakers sitting there at the shop on the floor not yet hooked up (both 8ohm rated) so I twisted the pairs together and plugged them in to the front L/R section and it was fine while we went over the rest of the line and the other ones he did. Before he left I asked him if it really could do 2ohm. He said it could so I grabbed a pair of outdoor speakers (8ohm) and twisted those in as well which would = a 2ohm load. The set sat in our front lobby playing away until we closed up at 8. So, from about 11am - 8pm the thing just kept going. It was pretty warm when I unplugged it, but not crazy hot like a cable box gets when stuffed into a cabinet.

The moral of the story is NOT for anyone to go plug in three pair of speakers into the front L/R of their receivers to try it. That would not be practical. If for some reason you need to have three pair running like that, please put an impedance matching volume control between the speakers and the receiver just to be safe. The point of my experiment in our design center was to test the guys claim and see how durable the amp was.

The only other amp I have done this with is a Parasound ZAMP with 3 pair of outdoor speakers running off of one ZAMP at the same time WITHOUT an impedance strip or volume control (using a Sonos player as a source). 5 years later and the client has never had a problem.
post #47 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

Not true.

When our rep brought a sample 730 over (about a month ago) and told me the amp section was durable and high quality I asked him to explain because I was skeptical. I wasn't a big Yamaha fan and had been predisposed against it from past dealings but he wanted me to consider making a switch from Denon/Marantz and said they redid their approach the last model cycle. He said the amp sections in the Aventage could handle 4ohm easily so I decided to try it. I had 2 pair of bookshelf speakers sitting there at the shop on the floor not yet hooked up (both 8ohm rated) so I twisted the pairs together and plugged them in to the front L/R section and it was fine while we went over the rest of the line and the other ones he did. Before he left I asked him if it really could do 2ohm. He said it could so I grabbed a pair of outdoor speakers (8ohm) and twisted those in as well which would = a 2ohm load. The set sat in our front lobby playing away until we closed up at 8. So, from about 11am - 8pm the thing just kept going. It was pretty warm when I unplugged it, but not crazy hot like a cable box gets when stuffed into a cabinet.

The moral of the story is NOT for anyone to go plug in three pair of speakers into the front L/R of their receivers to try it. That would not be practical. If for some reason you need to have three pair running like that, please put an impedance matching volume control between the speakers and the receiver just to be safe. The point of my experiment in our design center was to test the guys claim and see how durable the amp was.

The only other amp I have done this with is a Parasound ZAMP with 3 pair of outdoor speakers running off of one ZAMP at the same time WITHOUT an impedance strip or volume control (using a Sonos player as a source). 5 years later and the client has never had a problem.

Mathematically, 3 pairs of 8ohm speakers in parallel dont get 2 ohm. Although i dont know what their impedance response and their phase angle, i have been driving my pair of 4 ohm cosnsistent with my maratnz for a very long time and had no prblem, and this marantz is only rated down to 6 ohm. Their rating on wattage is something to throw confusion to those who dont know anything. Not a brand im into.
post #48 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

How can one consider the possible "synergy" until you say exactly which amplifier and speakers they will be used with?

It is interaction I am talking about, and until you say what the cables will be interacting with, there can be no way to consider the possibility of synergy.

I can say this; they have worked very well with most of the speakers and amplifiers they have been used with in my home over a number of years.

I would say your cable b.s. proves his point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

"Synergy" between audio components is an old audioPHOOL/sales term designed to mystify and take some of the science out of it.
post #49 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The problem with your so-called "research" is that it is biased and highly selective; you just pick out what seems to prove your point and ignore the things that prove you wrong...


Is that why you make reference to "What Hi-Fi" reviews but never mention they recommend Yamaha and Pioneer receivers?

http://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/home-cinema-amplifiers
post #50 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

Mathematically, 3 pairs of 8ohm speakers in parallel dont get 2 ohm. Although i dont know what their impedance response and their phase angle, i have been driving my pair of 4 ohm cosnsistent with my maratnz for a very long time and had no prblem, and this marantz is only rated down to 6 ohm. Their rating on wattage is something to throw confusion to those who dont know anything. Not a brand im into.

SORRY FOR THE LONG REPLY

1st: The load would be 2.7ohm. If it does 2.7 all day without getting terribly hot or shutting down, 2 won't be a problem. For fun I will hook up a 4ohm pair today, a 6ohm, and an 8ohm pair. THAT should be sufficient. I will even make a video for you and post a link. If that is not good enough, I will drag out a 4 pair of 8ohm speakers and do it. I have speakers out the wazoo around here so it's no big deal, it's just that those 3 sets are already out and easy to move around.

2nd: I'm going to ask you a question and trust for an honest answer: Are you more bothered by my claim that the Yamaha RX-A730 can do a 2ohm load and you think that it can't, or is it the fact that you own a Marantz & I mentioned Denon/Marantz to be what I now consider an inferior product for the 2013 models? If it's the latter, that's OK, but I would like to clarify something about my Denon/Marantz statement....

A 6ohm receiver SHOULD be able to play 4ohm loaded speakers without any problem, although not all speakers rated at 4ohm truly are 4ohm so even then it's hard to know. Being a Denon/Marantz dealer I have always loved and recommended the product and never had concerns using a 4ohm speaker on their amps or most of Denon's models ($600 & up) for that matter. I had mentioned that in a recent post as well. D&M Holding's amp sections had been very strong and able to do it no problem.

Recently (past year), however, we have had 3 separate client's with 6ohm rated Marantz receivers fry their amp sections while pushing a 4ohm speaker (systems NOT sold by us BTW, thank goodness!). What happened? Marantz changed their product. A call to Marantz confirmed this and we were told to no longer use 4ohm speakers on their receivers whereas before they had said it would be fine.

Here's what sucks: Nobody tells anyone this information until we find it out ourselves. Companies change things between model cycles for the worst all the damn time without so much as a whisper. Particularly with receivers. This is why I said that it changes all the time, sometimes even from year to year as to who makes the best and who makes a dog. Yamaha's last 2 model cycles have been really good. The 6 generations before that I wouldn't have touched them and would have recommended Denon or Marantz. Onkyo has been a dog for the entry and mid priced stuff for a few years now and it would take a lot to convince me otherwise - but eventually they'll be better. I would now call most of their receiver line crap.

Point is: You might have a Marantz pushing 4ohm and it's fine with your speakers. Maybe it's older? But we've had really bad experiences with this out in the field with the current generation of models.

3rd: I get what you're saying about not liking Yamaha. I used to be so biased against it I refused to do it even if a client asked. I would tell him to go with our recommendation of Marantz or buy a Yamaha online from someone else. THAT'S how much I hated it. I thought it was a company all about DSP modes and blinky lights and orange displays. When I started the business 7 years ago I did so with nothing. I did all of the field work myself and HATED setting a Yamaha up and felt gross every time I touched one - even the expensive ones. But things change so quickly now that after our experiences with Marantz lately and opening our new showroom I thought to do some investigating. Pioneer Elite, Onkyo, Yamaha were all brought in for testing and for us to work with. Yamaha was the better product hands down. Not even a close second between those three. So Yamaha, Marantz, Denon it is - for 2013.

After coming away so impressed I mentioned to their sales rep that I felt bad being so predisposed against it the past few years and you know what he said? "Don't be. The past 6 years before last (2012 as I took it) it's been junk. The company thought it best to get heavy into BestBuy and started making receivers to suit that market. They realized that was a mistake and wanted to retool the line so that it offered something better than the direction they were headed. Onkyo wanted to be in Walmart & Target and did the same thing and now it's killing them." I play with this stuff all day, every day and at least for for 2013, I agree with him.
post #51 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

SORRY FOR THE LONG REPLY

1st: The load would be 2.7ohm. If it does 2.7 all day without getting terribly hot or shutting down, 2 won't be a problem. For fun I will hook up a 4ohm pair today, a 6ohm, and an 8ohm pair. THAT should be sufficient. I will even make a video for you and post a link. If that is not good enough, I will drag out a 4 pair of 8ohm speakers and do it. I have speakers out the wazoo around here so it's no big deal, it's just that those 3 sets are already out and easy to move around.

2nd: I'm going to ask you a question and trust for an honest answer: Are you more bothered by my claim that the Yamaha RX-A730 can do a 2ohm load and you think that it can't, or is it the fact that you own a Marantz & I mentioned Denon/Marantz to be what I now consider an inferior product for the 2013 models? If it's the latter, that's OK, but I would like to clarify something about my Denon/Marantz statement....

A 6ohm receiver SHOULD be able to play 4ohm loaded speakers without any problem, although not all speakers rated at 4ohm truly are 4ohm so even then it's hard to know. Being a Denon/Marantz dealer I have always loved and recommended the product and never had concerns using a 4ohm speaker on their amps or most of Denon's models ($600 & up) for that matter. I had mentioned that in a recent post as well. D&M Holding's amp sections had been very strong and able to do it no problem.

Recently (past year), however, we have had 3 separate client's with 6ohm rated Marantz receivers fry their amp sections while pushing a 4ohm speaker (systems NOT sold by us BTW, thank goodness!). What happened? Marantz changed their product. A call to Marantz confirmed this and we were told to no longer use 4ohm speakers on their receivers whereas before they had said it would be fine.

Here's what sucks: Nobody tells anyone this information until we find it out ourselves. Companies change things between model cycles for the worst all the damn time without so much as a whisper. Particularly with receivers. This is why I said that it changes all the time, sometimes even from year to year as to who makes the best and who makes a dog. Yamaha's last 2 model cycles have been really good. The 6 generations before that I wouldn't have touched them and would have recommended Denon or Marantz. Onkyo has been a dog for the entry and mid priced stuff for a few years now and it would take a lot to convince me otherwise - but eventually they'll be better. I would now call most of their receiver line crap.

Point is: You might have a Marantz pushing 4ohm and it's fine with your speakers. Maybe it's older? But we've had really bad experiences with this out in the field with the current generation of models.

3rd: I get what you're saying about not liking Yamaha. I used to be so biased against it I refused to do it even if a client asked. I would tell him to go with our recommendation of Marantz or buy a Yamaha online from someone else. THAT'S how much I hated it. I thought it was a company all about DSP modes and blinky lights and orange displays. When I started the business 7 years ago I did so with nothing. I did all of the field work myself and HATED setting a Yamaha up and felt gross every time I touched one - even the expensive ones. But things change so quickly now that after our experiences with Marantz lately and opening our new showroom I thought to do some investigating. Pioneer Elite, Onkyo, Yamaha were all brought in for testing and for us to work with. Yamaha was the better product hands down. Not even a close second between those three. So Yamaha, Marantz, Denon it is - for 2013.

After coming away so impressed I mentioned to their sales rep that I felt bad being so predisposed against it the past few years and you know what he said? "Don't be. The past 6 years before last (2012 as I took it) it's been junk. The company thought it best to get heavy into BestBuy and started making receivers to suit that market. They realized that was a mistake and wanted to retool the line so that it offered something better than the direction they were headed. Onkyo wanted to be in Walmart & Target and did the same thing and now it's killing them." I play with this stuff all day, every day and at least for for 2013, I agree with him.

Can you show me where yamaha have stated these amps are stable at 2 ohms?
post #52 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by sid369 View Post

I am looking to buy speakers for a home theater, but I need the low down.

I keep reading reviews on high end speakers and how people compare them side-by-side using the same classical music, etc.

However, the fronts, center and rears. I am not that interested how speakers will image a classical band, but whether it will be able to play an action scene without blowing up. To me home theater speakers need to produce just enough imagining (for a movie) while having the power handling to take on some explosive scenes. For example, I know B&W are excellent speakers, but are they the best bang for my buck for playing loud (and clear) movies?

Based on reading this forum I have demoed the following

B&W 684
Focal 726
Paradigm Studio 60, 100, monitor 11
PSB Image T
Def tech 8040
Kef Q 700
Polk TSI 300


To me the B&W 684 sounded very open and felt had a wide soundstage, The focals also sounded good for the music when A/B against PSB. Paradigm Studio 60 also sounded great, did n't care for the rest.

But for movies all of them sounded kinda the same, so would a cheaper infinity primus p363 not be able to do the job for HT.

I also am reading that the center channel is the most important piece, but the B&W 600 series center gets mixed reviews, so does the focal 700 series, I don't know how the Paradigm or PSB center in their respective series fair.

Any inputs?

OP,

I'm sorry I contributed to this thread getting way off track. I would like to shed some light on what your actual question is. Do HT speakers NEED to be expensive? That all depends on the variables you have to deal with. Room size, desired volume levels (want it loud like a real theater?), aesthetic & installation concerns/needs + wants.

These factors will all play into if something NEEDS to be expensive or not. There's an old saying: NEEDS are cheap, WANTS will cost you!

Going by the speakers you listed it seems as if you are looking at something between $799 & $1,800 each for the fronts in a tower format?

Some notes on floor standing towers & NEED:
- Towers are rarely, if ever, NEEDED for theater use. It's completely unnecessary unless your room is massively huge.
- Towers for HT are more of a want because someone likes the way they look or have an installation requirement.

Lets look at a speaker I would consider a high end bargain for HT use and a pretty good music speaker as well, the JBL Synthesis LS series loudspeakers. This speaker is one of my favorites. It can play very loud (even the smaller one) and clean with clarity over a wide seating area. They look good and classic with the grilles on and really mean and aggressive with them off so, aesthetically, they're pretty fun depending on your tastes.

Seen at these links:

LS80: http://www.jblsynthesis.com/Products/Details/97 (MSRP: $1499 each)

LS60: http://www.jblsynthesis.com/Products/Details/98 (MSRP $1099 each)

LS40: http://www.jblsynthesis.com/Products/Details/99 (MSRP $799 each)

OK, so... the above three speakers are all voiced similarly and can be powered by a sub $1800 receiver just fine. I've done LS40 systems with a $700 Yamah and it's great, the towers will need a bit more "oomph". If you your room is sized to where the bookshelf LS40 at $799 each can perform it's best, which is actually a pretty good sized room... STOP RIGHT THERE. To buy the towers would be a waste unless.... you like the way towers look or don't want to stand/cabinet mount the LS40, then buy the LS60 floor standing version for the extra $600 a pair. The matching center will keep up just fine. This should really be a stopping point for most rooms (even fairly large ones) in this line of speaker if HT is your only concern.

Does that mean the JBL Synthesis LS line is the be all end all of HT speakers? Pffffft! Hell no. But it's a line that I think represents a killer value in what is referred to as an In-Room speaker. If you have cabinetry the speakers need to occupy, I would say to check out something else if you needed more output than the LS40 (which WILL do fine in a cabinet). The ADAM Audio GTC77 at $1250 each comes to mind: http://www.adam-audio.com/en/installation/products (honestly, I prefer it to the LS60, but the installation requirements make it more expensive because it needs stands or cabinetry).

In the end, I would say that if someone only has 1 to 2 rows of seating in a fairly large room and they want to be impressed every time they turn their system on, a budget between $1,100 to $2,000 per speaker for the front L/C/R can do the trick (the rears would come in lower per speaker more than likely). That would cover most people's desires for in-wall, on-wall, in-cabinet, or in-room speakers. Subs are a different animal but a dual sub setup between $1,000 - $3,500 each should suit most people there as well. Again, if they want blown off their seats.

But there are always exceptions! Can you mount on-walls under your flat panel or behind an AT screen? If so, I would look at the Jamo D500 & D600 series. Those are $349/$499 each and will do some very big rooms (D600) and sound fantastic.

Regardless, the above budgets should allow someone to find a speaker that can be installed the way they want, play to the desired volume level they want, and have the voicing they desire for any movie and achieve incredible results as long as they are setup, powered, and processed correctly.

Is there a higher end than that? Heck yes! My favorite system goes for between $16,000 & $35,000 (the only difference in cost is determined by room size) with amplification. But is it NEEDED? No. That system is a WANT, so it'll cost you. wink.gif
post #53 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post



Can you show me where yamaha have stated these amps are stable at 2 ohms?

Does Yamaha have to say that the receiver will do it for it to be able to do it? They show a dynamic power rating for 2ohm and have told me that it was 2ohm stable. I also tested this myself to my satisfaction.

However, as I stated in the post you quote of mine that I will post a video for you to see it doing it since you felt the need to quibble over spec sheets.

BTW, is it a double standard for you to be skeptical of me when you said you run 4ohm on a Marantz that says 6ohm? Marantz doesn't say 4ohm for your model, does it? But it can do it, correct?
Edited by PlexMulti - 5/20/13 at 7:03am
post #54 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Yes; that is excellent information. Thank you for providing it, Acu.

It's too bad that this kind of specific useful information is totally unavailable from the largely deceptive manufacturers' websites or literature (except for Cambridge).

Home Theater magazine provides a badly needed service when they do this kind of testing and provide these objective results (I am sure that is where you got it).

What would be even more useful would be the same kind of information relative to driving 4 ohm loads and 6 ohm loads. That would be much more useful, since so few speakers are actually 8 ohm loads or above over the audio frequency range.

The Denon 3312 is one of the very few that CAN measure up to the demands of a lot of speakers, and costs under $1000. It is a very good value, and its superior design is commendable.

As I said, there are VERY FEW HT RECEIVERS for under $1000 that do not have cheap inadequate power supplies and poor amplifier performance. It's nice that you could find ONE at least...lol.

I stand by that statement; VERY FEW.

LOL. I have done several double blind tests now with "cheap" sub $1000 receivers from Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc vs more expensive receiver and dedicated amp combos. Using the same efficient 8ohm rated speakers. Guess what? Nobody picked the receiver/dedicated amp combo that cost 3 to 4 times the price of a sub $1000 receiver. There have been tons of tests done just like this with the same results. No such thing as magic pixie dust with cables or receivers. All of this comes down to what speakers you buy (in terms of power). Recent Home Theater reviews on the "cheap" Pioneer receivers have been very solid.

Go look through the DIY section. I am powering four 15" subwoofers off of a single Behringer iNuke3000 DSP amp that I paid $280 for brand new from Amazon. We are talking about 2000 watts into 4ohms with built in DSP that accepts filters straight from REW (which is free). So a sub $100 USB microphone and free room measurement software and there you go, all fed into a "cheap" sub $300 amp that crushes in my room. If you want to spend a little more, the Crown amps are excellent as well.
post #55 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Back to the OP and his question for a change of pace...

Do you need expensive speakers? Not necessarily.

Do you need major brand name speakers from a brick and mortar, or should you try some of the internet-direct offerings, or should you go with a kit and assemble it yourself, or start from scratch and do it yourself completely? They're all valid ways to go, with varying levels of risk and work involved and increasing bang for the buck as you go down that line and that's without considering a furniture-type finish if that's important to you or not. Keep in mind listening to speakers in a store has little to do with listening to them in your own room, so if you are going to buy speakers you might try a few in-home trials first. With that Pioneer 1522 you've got then you might consider more sensitive speakers over less sensitive speakers, and more at 8 ohm rated speakers than lower impedance rated speakers (but ohm rating is just a nominal number, speaker impedance ranges quite a bit with each speaker, too).

How big is your room? Do you want to listen at reference levels? What is your budget?

What about the sub? You really can't have the theater experience with small bookshelf or even small floorstanding speakers alone...they simply don't have the lower end you need for a good home theater type experience.

Finally some sanity in this thread smile.gif

I am going to build some SEOS waveguides this summer so I can directly compare against my current speakers in my room. I have been considering going with either Triad Gold LCR's (which I fell in love with) or BG Radia Line Array's (which I was very impressed with). But hey, if I can get something just as good or better via DIY, I am all over that. Speakers will behind a screen wall so aesthetics mean zip to me.
post #56 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

Does Yamaha have to say that the receiver will do it for it to be able to do it? They show a dynamic power rating for 2ohm and have told me that it was 2ohm stable. I also tested this myself to my satisfaction.

However, as I stated in the post you quote of mine that I will post a video for you to see it doing it since you felt the need to quibble over spec sheets.

BTW, is it a double standard for you to be skeptical of me when you said you run 4ohm on a Marantz that says 6ohm? Marantz doesn't say 4ohm for your model, does it? But it can do it, correct?

Of course, if the amp can do 2 ohm stable, why not rate it and let the consumer know.. Why gives us all these dynamic power rating and 1k hz rating? Why would a consumer needs three differente wattage rating?
post #57 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Back to the OP and his question for a change of pace...

Do you need expensive speakers? Not necessarily.

Do you need major brand name speakers from a brick and mortar, or should you try some of the internet-direct offerings, or should you go with a kit and assemble it yourself, or start from scratch and do it yourself completely? They're all valid ways to go, with varying levels of risk and work involved and increasing bang for the buck as you go down that line and that's without considering a furniture-type finish if that's important to you or not. Keep in mind listening to speakers in a store has little to do with listening to them in your own room, so if you are going to buy speakers you might try a few in-home trials first. With that Pioneer 1522 you've got then you might consider more sensitive speakers over less sensitive speakers, and more at 8 ohm rated speakers than lower impedance rated speakers (but ohm rating is just a nominal number, speaker impedance ranges quite a bit with each speaker, too).

How big is your room? Do you want to listen at reference levels? What is your budget?

What about the sub? You really can't have the theater experience with small bookshelf or even small floorstanding speakers alone...they simply don't have the lower end you need for a good home theater type experience.

+1

I just want to add, that my rule of thumb tells me that I have about got to double my budget for each significant upgrade in sound. IMO, you get a very good return until you hit about $2k. Then it gets a little more interesting…although I have gladly spent more. You also start to pay more for the better cabinet-furniture grade as you go up as well.
post #58 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Yes; that is excellent information. Thank you for providing it, Acu.

It's too bad that this kind of specific useful information is totally unavailable from the largely deceptive manufacturers' websites or literature (except for Cambridge).

Home Theater magazine provides a badly needed service when they do this kind of testing and provide these objective results (I am sure that is where you got it).

What would be even more useful would be the same kind of information relative to driving 4 ohm loads and 6 ohm loads. That would be much more useful, since so few speakers are actually 8 ohm loads or above over the audio frequency range.

The Denon 3312 is one of the very few that CAN measure up to the demands of a lot of speakers, and costs under $1000. It is a very good value, and its superior design is commendable.

As I said, there are VERY FEW HT RECEIVERS for under $1000 that do not have cheap inadequate power supplies and poor amplifier performance. It's nice that you could find ONE at least...lol.

I stand by that statement; VERY FEW.


AVR Power Output @ 1% THD 2CH 8 ohms/4 ohms/ 5CH 8 ohms

$7000 Pioneer SC09: 268.7/523.4/267.3
$5500 Denon 5308: 235.5/339.2/184.6
$5500 AudioControl 1: 119.7/197.8/105.8
$5000 Yamaha Z11: 243.6/387.4/183.1
$5000 Arcam 600: 119.2/207.3/95.5
$4000 NAD 787: 184.5/207.1/149.2
$2000 Rotel 1550: 150.1/235.0/111.4
$2000 Anthem 700: 160.2/221.0/93.7
$1800 Cambridge 650: 174.4/229.9/142.3
$1600 NAD 757: 121.9/181.0/91.2
$1400 Onkyo 1009: 179.5/250.4/131.2
$1400 Integra 50.2: 172.4/259.8/134.1
$1300 Cambridge 551: 111.3/139.8/81.2
$1200 Marantz 6006: 153.2/195.8/92.0
$1200 Denon 3312: 143.3/225.5/103.0
$1200 Yamaha 1020: 129.2/173.0/73.2
$1100 Pioneer SC61: 150.3/247.5/127.7
$1000 Anthem 300: 116.3/165.9/83.4
$1000 Sherwood 977: 145.1/209.9/109.2
$500 HK 1700: 108.9/196.3/39.5
$900 Denon 2313: 152.1/192.5/90.8
$580 Denon 1913: 117.7/151.1/81.7
$550 Yamaha 573: 111.4/126.2/24.9
$500 Sony 1030: 134.7/167.7/90.4
$450 Yamaha 473: 96.5/143.2/Protection Mode
$450 Pioneer VSX42: 118.2/157.8/79.9
$350 Denon 1612: 118.5/141.5/79.8
$330 Pioneer 821: 110.3/150.7/78.1
$230 Sony 520: 141.7/160.6/81.3

A $230 Sony AVR has more power output than a $1300 Cambridge AVR!

I sure count A LOT of cheaper AVR than are just as good as the Cambridge!

I think most of us can agree that a difference of < 20 watts is insignificant ?
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 5/20/13 at 8:40am
post #59 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

Of course, if the amp can do 2 ohm stable, why not rate it and let the consumer know.. Why gives us all these dynamic power rating and 1k hz rating? Why would a consumer needs three differente wattage rating?

I 100% see, understand, and agree with your point. While I cannot explain off the top of my head why manufacturers post numbers the way they do (believe me, more fudge their numbers than do not), I can certainly ask to try and find a good answer if one exists. It will take a few days, but I'll put some effort in to do it.

Let me also state that there is no practical reason for a 2ohm rating on an A/V receiver. My point in bringing it up was just to show that the amp in the Yamaha's was a quality part. Yamaha's tend to have a durable reputation and this, in my eyes, goes to back that up. I can go along with the fact that most receivers in a given price point will sound the same given they are matched with proper speakers, rooms, calibration and expectations. What I would fight for tooth and nail is that they are NOT all made with the same parts, the same way, or are equally durable. At least not in the amplifier & video board sections. It is a good thing to find an A/V receiver built well across the board at various price points.

We're building a 177" diagonal movie theater screen for our design center today. I'll get this video shot this evening.
post #60 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlexMulti View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

Of course, if the amp can do 2 ohm stable, why not rate it and let the consumer know.. Why gives us all these dynamic power rating and 1k hz rating? Why would a consumer needs three differente wattage rating?

I 100% see, understand, and agree with your point. While I cannot explain off the top of my head why manufacturers post numbers the way they do (believe me, more fudge their numbers than do not), I can certainly ask to try and find a good answer if one exists. It will take a few days, but I'll put some effort in to do it.

Let me also state that there is no practical reason for a 2ohm rating on an A/V receiver. My point in bringing it up was just to show that the amp in the Yamaha's was a quality part. Yamaha's tend to have a durable reputation and this, in my eyes, goes to back that up. I can go along with the fact that most receivers in a given price point will sound the same given they are matched with proper speakers, rooms, calibration and expectations. What I would fight for tooth and nail is that they are NOT all made with the same parts, the same way, or are equally durable. At least not in the amplifier & video board sections. It is a good thing to find an A/V receiver built well across the board at various price points.

We're building a 177" diagonal movie theater screen for our design center today. I'll get this video shot this evening.

Because men tend to measure everything by what is biggest rather than best?

Some are FTC approved ratings so at least there's a common playing field in some cases. I do note that the Yamaha 473 in this list went into protection mode
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