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Panasonic ZT60 Deals... - Page 8

post #211 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post

Not trying to defend anyone here, but just think about this. The 65" S64 at Costco is selling for $1299. How much more do you think it costs to manufacture a 65" ZT versus that S64? Maybe a few hundred dollars (like $200). Bearing that in mind and the fact that BB offerered the 65" ZT to anyone who walked into one of their stores for $3199 just a few weeks ago, $2999 is not out of the realm of feasibility. Due to a customer service issue, I was "upgraded" to a ZT from a VT. I technically paid even less than $2999 (out the door no less) for my ZT and I was told that they still weren't "losing money" on the set. Interpret that as you will, but don't think that there is not a large margin on these sets (or anything else in the consumer electronics arena).

Define "large". It is smaller than it has ever been. There is a lot more you have to take into consideration than just POS margin dollars. There are warehousing and logistics, store, employee, service, delivery and advertising costs, to name a few. Also, to run a business that is capable of selling and supporting high-end products like Magnolia, all of these costs go up even further.
post #212 of 1930
I read somewhere that BB's cost is somewhere around $2400-2500 (not accounting for all those other aforementioned business expenses wink.gif).
post #213 of 1930
I define large margin as anything over 30%. Yes, I know CE dealers once operated on a 75-100% profit margin but those days are over. Very few industries in the world operate on that level of profit or higher, even ones that have higher overhead costs than say a Best Buy store. I have no problem with a vendor making a fair profit. 75-100% markup I don't agree with, but if you can get it as a retailer, good for you. I have friends in this industry so I'm always a little tougher on pricing since I have a good clue as to what a retailer is paying for a set (and their ancillary expenses that go into total cost of goods sold). Let's not even bring in back-end rebates, manufacturer to retailer incentives, etc as they are different for every retailer. the "cost" in your computer system is technically irrelevant, as it really isn't the company's true cost, just a number used to establish the minimum selling price (cost + pricing) and discount percentages from MSRP while making the consumer feel like they are getting a good deal.

Like I mentioned, if they can sell a 65" S64 for $1299 (and keep profit in that), there is clearly a good margin on a VT or ZT, which only cost say 5-20% more to manufacture, yet sell for 200-300% more even taking into account the additional expenses of advertising, delivering, retail space, warehousing, etc)..
Edited by Influence - 8/26/13 at 11:44am
post #214 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post

I define large margin as anything over 30%. Yes, I know CE dealers once operated on a 75-100% profit margin but those days are over. Very few industries in the world operate on that level of profit or higher, even ones that have higher overhead costs than say a Best Buy store. I have no problem with a vendor making a fair profit. 75-100% markup I don't agree with, but if you can get it as a retailer, good for you. I have friends in this industry so I'm always a little tougher on pricing since I have a good clue as to what a retailer is paying for a set (and their ancillary expenses that go into total cost of goods sold). Let's not even bring in back-end rebates, manufacturer to retailer incentives, etc as they are different for every retailer. the "cost" in your computer system is technically irrelevant, as it really isn't the company's true cost, just a number used to establish the minimum selling price (cost + pricing) and discount percentages from MSRP while making the consumer feel like they are getting a good deal.

Like I mentioned, if they can sell a 65" S64 for $1299 (and keep profit in that), there is clearly a good margin on a VT or ZT, which only cost say 5-20% more to manufacture, yet sell for 200-300% more even taking into account the additional expenses of advertising, delivering, retail space, warehousing, etc)..

You are using terms like mark up % and margin % interchangeably. Ignoring that, most TV's are not even 30% margin. That is only taking into account POS rates, not even freight, labor etc. Even in Magnolia, and even on VT/ZT there is not 100% mark up. And while back-end rebates do exist, they only come into play when a TV is discounted and has an even lower POS margin rate. The goal of the back-end rebate is to recapture some of the margin lost on the front end so that they receive similar margin even while a TV is on sale. Also keep in mind, there is not always a back-end rebate when something is on sale. In the end, you define large margin as anything above 30%. Well, in the TV industry, 30% is basically as good as it gets. Again, not taking into account other costs of doing business. Outside of the high-end models it is even worse.
post #215 of 1930
Anyone hear of any good deals coming up on the 65" ZT ?
post #216 of 1930
A certain Panasonic insider has hinted that those who have been waiting will soon be rewarded with what sounds like instant rebates. So, stay tuned?
post #217 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by mluder View Post

You know what - You're right. It's not fair of me to question your integrity. I don't even know you.

That being the case, forums like this work best when we are all friends who openly share information and resources. How would it be if some one like D-Nice said, "I've got these slides that you should use to break in your screen" but then refused to share them. BTW - he provides them for free though he could charge for them. What about others who have found settings for their sets that they find work exceptionally well. Shouldn't they too share them so that everyone can benefit?

If I were you and I managed to get what is apparently the best deal anyone has heard of yet for the set - including the guy who works at Magnolia - I would be happy to scan my receipt, blank out the personal information and then share it with everyone so they too could experience my good fortune.

I tell you what - you keep your info to yourself and while you're at it, do not take advantage of anyone elses free advice on this site. After all it's up to them to "put on their big boy pants and figure things out for themselves."

A forum is a comunity of like minded people sharing information in freindship and support of one annother.

Cheers
Steven

+1

People post receipts ...with blanked out personal information... all the time

lets remember...this is a DEALS forum and not a discussion forum


Warren
post #218 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post

Not trying to defend anyone here, but just think about this. The 65" S64 at Costco is selling for $1299. How much more do you think it costs to manufacture a 65" ZT versus that S64? Maybe a few hundred dollars (like $200). Bearing that in mind and the fact that BB offerered the 65" ZT to anyone who walked into one of their stores for $3199 just a few weeks ago, $2999 is not out of the realm of feasibility. Due to a customer service issue, I was "upgraded" to a ZT from a VT. I technically paid even less than $2999 (out the door no less) for my ZT and I was told that they still weren't "losing money" on the set. Interpret that as you will, but don't think that there is not a large margin on these sets (or anything else in the consumer electronics arena).


a little more too it than that I think

from a manufacturing standpoint
while it may not cost much more( if any) to manufacture the ZT...the R&d costs that took to develop were probably far higher than the S64...add to that the fact they are going to make so many fewer units so they wont get help with economies of scale
Then there is typically more profit margin on higher end units because they just sit there longer...holding inventory costs money
The amount of time a ZT sits unsold is probably far higher than an S64 because the ZT has far more limited appeal


Warren
post #219 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Define "large". It is smaller than it has ever been. There is a lot more you have to take into consideration than just POS margin dollars. There are warehousing and logistics, store, employee, service, delivery and advertising costs, to name a few. Also, to run a business that is capable of selling and supporting high-end products like Magnolia, all of these costs go up even further.

and quite honestly

I really doubt most of the stores magnolia's could stand on their own..profit wise

the main store...I would imagine..is heavily subsidizing the magnolia

I do agree with you though...as long as inventory sits there...and the volume numbers all total...there is a lot more too it than POS margins


Warren
post #220 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post

I define large margin as anything over 30%. Yes, I know CE dealers once operated on a 75-100% profit margin but those days are over. Very few industries in the world operate on that level of profit or higher, even ones that have higher overhead costs than say a Best Buy store. I have no problem with a vendor making a fair profit. 75-100% markup I don't agree with, but if you can get it as a retailer, good for you. I have friends in this industry so I'm always a little tougher on pricing since I have a good clue as to what a retailer is paying for a set (and their ancillary expenses that go into total cost of goods sold). Let's not even bring in back-end rebates, manufacturer to retailer incentives, etc as they are different for every retailer. the "cost" in your computer system is technically irrelevant, as it really isn't the company's true cost, just a number used to establish the minimum selling price (cost + pricing) and discount percentages from MSRP while making the consumer feel like they are getting a good deal.

Like I mentioned, if they can sell a 65" S64 for $1299 (and keep profit in that), there is clearly a good margin on a VT or ZT, which only cost say 5-20% more to manufacture, yet sell for 200-300% more even taking into account the additional expenses of advertising, delivering, retail space, warehousing, etc)..

I am thinking you are missing some of the facts

if things were that good why is Panasonic loosing millions a year on the TV business?

The fact of the matter is...I would bet the cost on the ZT to Panasonic is FAR higher than the S64....the costs to manufacture are only a small part. They have to recoup their R&D...and they dont get anywhere near the economies of scale on the ZT as they do on a TV like the S64 that they make umpteen more of

Think about the Pioneer Plasma...and more recently the Sharp Elite LED

Huge prices.....but I bet both were HUGE losses for their companies


Warren
post #221 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

and quite honestly

I really doubt most of the stores magnolia's could stand on their own..profit wise

the main store...I would imagine..is heavily subsidizing the magnolia

I do agree with you though...as long as inventory sits there...and the volume numbers all total...there is a lot more too it than POS margins


Warren

We're basically on the same page. I understand what you are getting at by saying they wouldn't stand on their own from a profit standpoint, but the statement is a little misleading. Magnolia is profitable, and is certainly accountable for their own P&L. Could they survive on the same margins if they were a standalone store, not owned by Best Buy? The short answer is, probably not. At least not without changing the business model fairly substantially. They would need even higher profit rates to survive in that climate. As with any subsidiary though, they do "pay" Best Buy for things like rent, warehousing, advertising etc.. The real benefit for them, is foot traffic.
post #222 of 1930
That sale BB did a bit ago is still the best price by far I've seen on the ZT60. I expected better prices once there was no longer an exclusive with BB.

Though I did read somewhere some aggressive inventory clearing instant rebates were coming for some panasonic models. Might see some interesting things if that applies to the ZT.
post #223 of 1930
^At the same time, the ZT60 was also said to be manufactured in limited quantities in comparison to the rest of the models, which prevents the price from getting TOO elastic on the low end.
post #224 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirh View Post

That sale BB did a bit ago is still the best price by far I've seen on the ZT60. I expected better prices once there was no longer an exclusive with BB.

Though I did read somewhere some aggressive inventory clearing instant rebates were coming for some panasonic models. Might see some interesting things if that applies to the ZT.

Don't expect ZT to move that much.
post #225 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

Don't expect ZT to move that much.

Makes me glad I took advantage of the good pricing then.
post #226 of 1930
I'm still amazed that these sets are still in their current price range. I walked into BB before the first sale and asked if there was any working on the price and they said no so i just said i'd wait and walked out. came back during the sale and when the salesman asked me if i need any help i said i heard the zt's are on sale...acted a little on the fence as he pushed me on if i added accessories he could work on the price. I didn't need anything else and said i wasn't paying over $2500 as i knew their exclusitivity was about to end. He went and talked to his manager and came back and said they'd do it. so $2500 plus tax on a 60". I thought for sure once they'd hit the general stores it would drop down and i'd feel bad that i had to pay more to get it sooner. well i still feel okay. now to work on that fan noise.
post #227 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

We're basically on the same page. I understand what you are getting at by saying they wouldn't stand on their own from a profit standpoint, but the statement is a little misleading. Magnolia is profitable, and is certainly accountable for their own P&L. Could they survive on the same margins if they were a standalone store, not owned by Best Buy? The short answer is, probably not. At least not without changing the business model fairly substantially. They would need even higher profit rates to survive in that climate. As with any subsidiary though, they do "pay" Best Buy for things like rent, warehousing, advertising etc.. The real benefit for them, is foot traffic.

I understand what you are saying

But yes...the business model would have to change

for one the rigidity of the price match policy would have to be a little more flexible

though I will admit in the past year or so I am somewhat amazed when I see the posts about magnolia doing a price match

a couple of years ago it was next to impossible

The other part is...they are typically competing against a high end local smaller retailer

Service levels at Magnolia are nowhere close to that type of retailer. I have walked in a Magnolia many times mid day...no one there

Additionally...and this may be a status of the market...if you do find an independent retail outlet that carries TV's such as the ZT they will have much higher end audio that the Magnolia stores( inside BB) carry

the separate magnolia stores in Chicago and Dallas, that I have been to are much different

They have audio, IMO, commensurate for a buyer that is interested in dropping $4K on a TV...McIntosh, Krell..etc

The other Magnolia stores dont go after the higher end audio market

I would have to think that type of buyer might spend 4K( or more) on audio as well

But..perhaps I am missing something...as audio and video are of 50/50 importance to me

The best audio piece in standard Magnolia is the Denon 4520

for my main listening area...all the 4520 could do for me is be a preamp


Warren
post #228 of 1930
Originally Posted by Influence

Not trying to defend anyone here, but just think about this. The 65" S64 at Costco is selling for $1299. How much more do you think it costs to manufacture a 65" ZT versus that S64? Maybe a few hundred dollars (like $200). Bearing that in mind and the fact that BB offerered the 65" ZT to anyone who walked into one of their stores for $3199 just a few weeks ago, $2999 is not out of the realm of feasibility. Due to a customer service issue, I was "upgraded" to a ZT from a VT. I technically paid even less than $2999 (out the door no less) for my ZT and I was told that they still weren't "losing money" on the set. Interpret that as you will, but don't think that there is not a large margin on these sets (or anything else in the consumer electronics arena).

The gap between the two you mention in regards to production cost will be more the you appear to be implying - ZT - autoclave process for glass, THX cert cost, one piece of glass, the best filter made this year, better processing, etc. Not a great choices to try to try to. make your point. All these cheaply made overpriced plasma models just have Panny rolling in the dough - NOT.
post #229 of 1930
^^

and as I have said before a couple of things as to the cost...probably..of the ZT over an S64

Product developments costs that Panasonic has to recoup

Economies of scale...they probably are going to make 100x more of the S64 than the ZT60



Warren
post #230 of 1930
For anyone with Panasonic EPP pricing they have crazy prices right now:

65ZT60 - $3,075.00
60ZT60 - $2,625.00

By the way, if you don't know what EPP pricing is.......You probably are not eligible. The good thing for everyone is that this may signal an impending drop of street prices, just as the Panasonic Insider hinted would happen soon on certain models.
post #231 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post

For anyone with Panasonic EPP pricing they have crazy prices right now:

65ZT60 - $3,075.00
60ZT60 - $2,625.00

By the way, if you don't know what EPP pricing is.......You probably are not eligible. The good thing for everyone is that this may signal an impending drop of street prices, just as the Panasonic Insider hinted would happen soon on certain models.

I will validate mixdoctor's post. The pricing under EPP is great and was updated in early hour's of yesterday morning. However I just bought my P65ZT60 for $2999.99 at MDC. Expecting delivery on Friday.
post #232 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by lqvnguyen View Post

I will validate mixdoctor's post. The pricing under EPP is great and was updated in early hour's of yesterday morning. However I just bought my P65ZT60 for $2999.99 at MDC. Expecting delivery on Friday.

Who is MDC ?
post #233 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatever1 View Post

Who is MDC ?

Magnolia Design Center
post #234 of 1930
nice

that says they have 15 of them...I thought they only had 3-4

I have been to locations in Chicago and Dallas

outstanding places for good products


Warren
post #235 of 1930
Can you believe I called Panasonic today regarding fan noise rumors on vt and zt plasma models before I made purchase and they told not one person called in regarding this issue and if they did it would've been documented. They just lost my business hello Samsung!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
post #236 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjnolberto View Post

Can you believe I called Panasonic today regarding fan noise rumors on vt and zt plasma models before I made purchase and they told not one person called in regarding this issue and if they did it would've been documented. They just lost my business hello Samsung!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

Give it some time for their operational support to catch up with the solution that the Panasonic engineering team has proposed. People will be people and not everyone will be on the same page as instructed by Ops management. The adoption/propagation rate of new information from engineering to support, with this kind of post R&D issue occurs in every large corporation. I don't believe its been more than a week since Panasonic engineering identified a resolution for this. We have already had this fix applied in several of our conference room VT60s at work.
post #237 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by lqvnguyen View Post

Give it some time for their operational support to catch up with the solution that the Panasonic engineering team has proposed. People will be people and not everyone will be on the same page as instructed by Ops management. The adoption/propagation rate of new information from engineering to support, with this kind of post R&D issue occurs in every large corporation. I don't believe its been more than a week since Panasonic engineering identified a resolution for this. We have already had this fix applied in several of our conference room VT60s at work.

no different than Samsung and the buzzing issue


Warren
post #238 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

nice

that says they have 15 of them...I thought they only had 3-4

I have been to locations in Chicago and Dallas

outstanding places for good products


Warren

The graphic is outdated. There are currently 32. 28 inside Best Buy stores, and 4 stand-alone stores on the West coast.
post #239 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

The graphic is outdated. There are currently 32. 28 inside Best Buy stores, and 4 stand-alone stores on the West coast.


good deal

a couple of questions

are the products in MDC available in MHT?...specifically the audio products

why are the price structures sometimes different...for instance I bought a Pioneer Sc37 receiver a couple of years on ago on clearance at MHT. I went to MDC( in chicago) and their price was still almost retail?



Warren
post #240 of 1930
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

good deal

a couple of questions

are the products in MDC available in MHT?...specifically the audio products

why are the price structures sometimes different...for instance I bought a Pioneer Sc37 receiver a couple of years on ago on clearance at MHT. I went to MDC( in chicago) and their price was still almost retail?



Warren

Typically, if a brand is carried in MHT, you can get the higher-end MDC products of the same brand via special order. If a brand is not available in MHT(McIntosh, Sonus Faber, Arcam etc), you cannot order via MHT. Products from those brands have very strict distribution restrictions.

Pricing is largely the same. The intention is to have the products that are available in both spaces priced at the same level. Clearance pricing will be the exception. They have separate supply chains, thus inventory levels and clearance timing/pricing will be different.
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