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Sharp 4K LCD TVs into the Japanese market...Possible Elite models in US?

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Sharp launches two new Aquos 4K LCD TVs into the Japanese market with Motheye screens. Set for June release in Japan. Possible 4K Elite model in the US. It seems 4K is starting to leave the station.


http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/sharp-launches-two-new-aquos-4k-lcd-tvs/
post #2 of 29
Thread Starter 
I am really surprised these displays are not getting more attention from what is supposed to be A/V enthusiasts looking for the best picture. I think these sets could be game changers. If you do any viewing of material in a room with even a tiny bit of ambient light, I don't think you will currently be able to find a better set. The 70" display will MSRP for around $7995 and I would expect a street of $6995 a few months after launch. Sharp is probably our best bet for "affordable" large format (70"-90") 4K in the immediate future. Wish they had kept the full array backlighting of the Elites, but the MothEye screen is said to increase uniformity, so I guess we will see soon.

http://www.hdtv-news.com/sharp/lc70ud1-lc60ud1-aquos-4k/
post #3 of 29
It's not a full-fledged UltraHD display yet. No HDMI 2.0, so maximum 24 Hz @ 2160p and 8-bit output.
post #4 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I am really surprised these displays are not getting more attention from what is supposed to be A/V enthusiasts looking for the best picture. I think these sets could be game changers

I think it will be easier to get excited when they are closer to shipping here.

There has been too much disappointed associated with stuff that is only theoretically available.
post #5 of 29
The beast has been released from the Asian sewers!

No full array backlighting and costs zillions of dollars--if they can sell it beware of what may wind up in your grocery store next!
post #6 of 29
MothEye with 4K is apparently an impressive combinatinon...

http://www.trustedreviews.com/sharp-70in-4k-moth-eye_TV_review

Love to have MothEye on a computer monitor. Are there no drawbacks?
post #7 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post

MothEye with 4K is apparently an impressive combinatinon...

It is, although the sense I got from Sharp was well, well north of $10,000 at release... possibly north of $20,000....
Quote:
Love to have MothEye on a computer monitor. Are there no drawbacks?

There weren't any apparent ones. Maybe under some conditions there will be.

That said, it's clearly expensive.
post #8 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It is, although the sense I got from Sharp was well, well north of $10,000 at release... possibly north of $20,000....
There weren't any apparent ones. Maybe under some conditions there will be.

That said, it's clearly expensive.

The 70" Sharp 4K LC-70UD1 with MothEye goes on sale June 15th in Japan for around 800,000 yen or about $8500 USD. They tend to sell for less here, so I would say $7995 MSRP and to street around $7,500.

The one negative I have heard about the Motheye screens is that they are harder to calibrate properly.
Edited by sytech - 6/13/13 at 8:39am
post #9 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

The 70" Sharp 4K LC-70UD1 with MothEye goes on sale June 15th in Japan for around 800,000 yen or about $8500 USD. They tend to sell for less here, so I would say $7995 MSRP and to street around $7,500.

The one negative I have heard about the Motheye screens is that they are harder to calibrate properly.

Hmm, that doesn't seem so unreasonable at all. That's a true 4K set, not one of their "pseudo 4K" sets using the Quattron as trickery, yes? If so, I could see that being very popular (within the narrow niche of 4K buyers, of course).
post #10 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

It's not a full-fledged UltraHD display yet. No HDMI 2.0, so maximum 24 Hz @ 2160p and 8-bit output.

Seems like this is a problem for all 4k TVs, except for Samsung as they have the hardware/operating system upgrade kits. I'm surprised more manufacturers don't have a hardware upgrade option. HDMI 2.0 will support 2D up to 60Hz at 2160p and 2160p 3D. Also the next gen of UHD broadcasts will be encoded in HEVC 2.65 and the current 4k TVs can't decode this new compression scheme.

I was all set to buy a ZT60 or F8500, but now I waiting to see Samsung's new UN65F9000.
post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by schnura View Post

Seems like this is a problem for all 4k TVs, except for Samsung as they have the hardware/operating system upgrade kits. I'm surprised more manufacturers don't have a hardware upgrade option. HDMI 2.0 will support 2D up to 60Hz at 2160p and 2160p 3D. Also the next gen of UHD broadcasts will be encoded in HEVC 2.65 and the current 4k TVs can't decode this new compression scheme.

I was all set to buy a ZT60 or F8500, but now I waiting to see Samsung's new UN65F9000.

As far as the h.265 codec that should be able to be handle via firmware update if the set has a fast enough processor. Sure a dedicated chipset would be cheaper, but it should still be doable. Plus H.265 has already been finalized so maybe they built the sets with the needed hardware. The current HDMI specs allow for 2160@30hz so it should be fine for movies, but not gaming. They should all have the evolution kit like the Samsung though, just in case the buyers wants it some day. The best thing to do is probably wait. HDMI 2.0 should be finalized by fall and be incorporated into displays by the end of 2013 or early 2014 at the latest.

More info about the LC-70UD1
It also looks like the Sharp 4K 70" Motheye is hitting the streets on Japan at an even lower price of around $7000-$7500. I would expect a slightly lower street in the USA. Probably street around $6495. I just wish this display still had full array and was 80".
post #12 of 29
No way is H.265 going to be handled by a firmware update -- at least not well. It will absolutely require dedicated silicon.

That said, TVs generally do not do much decoding. That's usually the province of STBs of various kinds.
post #13 of 29
Thanks rogo. At the VE Shootout Robert stated that Samsung's UHD TVs have HEVC 2.65 decoders built-in. He specifically said they are the only UHD TVs that can decode the new 2.65 High Efficiency Video Codec. Looks like Comcast cable, Netflix streaming and DIRECT-TV will be the first to employ this advanced UHD decoding scheme.

Not sure if other UHD TVs could get a software upgrade to accomplish this, but it seems to me you need a dedicated chip as h 2.65 requires a very powerful decoder.

BTW, I just saw the 2013 evolution kit for the 2012 high-end models and it includes the new remote. Very cool upgrade!
post #14 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

As far as the h.265 codec that should be able to be handle via firmware update if the set has a fast enough processor. Sure a dedicated chipset would be cheaper, but it should still be doable. Plus H.265 has already been finalized so maybe they built the sets with the needed hardware. The current HDMI specs allow for 2160@30hz so it should be fine for movies, but not gaming. They should all have the evolution kit like the Samsung though, just in case the buyers wants it some day. The best thing to do is probably wait. HDMI 2.0 should be finalized by fall and be incorporated into displays by the end of 2013 or early 2014 at the latest.

More info about the LC-70UD1
It also looks like the Sharp 4K 70" Motheye is hitting the streets on Japan at an even lower price of around $7000-$7500. I would expect a slightly lower street in the USA. Probably street around $6495. I just wish this display still had full array and was 80".

The LC-70UD1 is already selling for 618,000 yen. If the exchange rate goes back up to 100Y per $1 then itll be about ~$6180
post #15 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by schnura View Post

Thanks rogo. At the VE Shootout Robert stated that Samsung's UHD TVs have HEVC 2.65 decoders built-in. He specifically said they are the only UHD TVs that can decode the new 2.65 High Efficiency Video Codec. Looks like Comcast cable, Netflix streaming and DIRECT-TV will be the first to employ this advanced UHD decoding scheme.

Not sure if other UHD TVs could get a software upgrade to accomplish this, but it seems to me you need a dedicated chip as h 2.65 requires a very powerful decoder.

Generally speaking, software decoding on advanced codecs has been doable with general purpose microprocessors but not realistic with the embedded processors that you'd find in something like a TV. That's why you need purpose-built silicon. Certainly, I would not count on anything lacking it to ever work well.
post #16 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Generally speaking, software decoding on advanced codecs has been doable with general purpose microprocessors but not realistic with the embedded processors that you'd find in something like a TV. That's why you need purpose-built silicon. Certainly, I would not count on anything lacking it to ever work well.

I thought Qualcomm was showing H.265 decoding in software on a Snapdragon 800 processor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkh2A8eWxvs
post #17 of 29
"For H.265 to take off, chipmakers will have to release hardware that supports HEVC decoding. You're able to watch Netflix and YouTube on your smartphone because the graphics chip inside it can decode H.264 video, but those chips won't just magically work with H.265."

Source: http://www.tested.com/tech/web/453188-what-you-should-know-about-h265-video/

"Dedicated hardware on the Snapdragon chip decoded the H.264 video, but software running on the general-purpose CPU decoded H.265 video because Qualcomm can't build chip support until H.265 is finished, Decotigne said."

Source: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13970_7-57387626-78/qualcomm-shows-horsepower-of-next-gen-h.265-video/

You can read the article, but the way I read it, Qualcomm showed a demo of decoding... You can't actually decode video over and over this way; it will torch your battery and probably run really hot.

So, yes, as I said, you can do it, but you don't want to and you won't.

You need purpose-built silicon.
post #18 of 29
I'm convinced you're right: HEVC will require dedicated hardware decoding. I said as much on the 4k thread a few weeks ago.
post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post

I'm convinced you're right: HEVC will require dedicated hardware decoding. I said as much on the 4k thread a few weeks ago.

Not always. It can be presently done in software if you have a place to buffer the bitmaps and don't mind a little delay when starting and a little pause here and there. Obviously not the preferred solution, but if your only upgrade path is via software it will better than nothing.
post #20 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Not always. It can be presently done in software if you have a place to buffer the bitmaps and don't mind a little delay when starting and a little pause here and there. Obviously not the preferred solution, but if your only upgrade path is via software it will better than nothing.

It will be better than nothing if you need to decode the occasional clip. Software decoding is not a viable solution for regularly watching content. Let's stop confusing people and suggesting otherwise.
post #21 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It will be better than nothing if you need to decode the occasional clip. Software decoding is not a viable solution for regularly watching content. Let's stop confusing people and suggesting otherwise.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it as a long term solution for decoding h.265, when if can be done better and cheaper with a dedicated chip-set. Just suggesting it for early adopters that don't have an easy upgrade path.
post #22 of 29
Thread Starter 
It appears Sharp is shipping their 32" 4K monitor with DisplayPort 1.2 so you can get 4K@60hz, 4.4.4 and 10-bit over a single cable. I wonder if their 60 and 70UD1 will have that option as well? AFAIK none of the 84" sets using the LG glass or Samsungs have DisplayPort. I wish the would hurry up with HDMI 2 specs so we can get a single standard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDKjlJogNeU

It seems strange that these expensive 4K sets would not at least ship with Display Port1.2 ports. I mean we all know that eventually HDMI 2.0 will be the standard, but how much could Display Port1.2 add to these already expensive sets. The only 4K set I would consider is the Samsung's with their EVO kits.
Edited by sytech - 6/22/13 at 7:30pm
post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

It appears Sharp is shipping their 32" 4K monitor with DisplayPort 1.2 so you can get 4K@60hz, 4.4.4 and 10-bit over a single cable. I wonder if their 60 and 70UD1 will have that option as well? AFAIK none of the 84" sets using the LG glass or Samsungs have DisplayPort. I wish the would hurry up with HDMI 2 specs so we can get a single standard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDKjlJogNeU

It seems strange that these expensive 4K sets would not at least ship with Display Port1.2 ports. I mean we all know that eventually HDMI 2.0 will be the standard, but how much could Display Port1.2 add to these already expensive sets. The only 4K set I would consider is the Samsung's with their EVO kits.

That is a mystery to me. Why use the current hdmi when dual displayports can get you 10 bits with 4K at 60. Yes, the new standard is coming out but that should not mean use the old hdmi. Dual displayports can get you more than the current hdmi.
post #24 of 29
The problem is that display port is a computer connection, not an AV one. How many AVR's have display port connectors ? None that I know of, they all use hdmi. Computer monitors use both so Sharp correctly add a display port connection to that monitor, as they need to do because if they did not it would certainly cost them sales.
Now it is true that nowadays everything in the AV is going over to the computer / IT world. Both still and movie cameras are digital, film has almost entirely disappeared and smart tv's are connected to the internet etc. So hopefully we will one day end up with just one type of connector but that day is yet to arrive.
post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by catonic View Post

The problem is that display port is a computer connection, not an AV one. How many AVR's have display port connectors ? None that I know of, they all use hdmi. Computer monitors use both so Sharp correctly add a display port connection to that monitor, as they need to do because if they did not it would certainly cost them sales.
Now it is true that nowadays everything in the AV is going over to the computer / IT world. Both still and movie cameras are digital, film has almost entirely disappeared and smart tv's are connected to the internet etc. So hopefully we will one day end up with just one type of connector but that day is yet to arrive.

Thats true, guess we will have to wait a year for the new hdmi standard. No real point of 4k with the current hdmi
post #26 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by catonic View Post

The problem is that display port is a computer connection, not an AV one. How many AVR's have display port connectors ? None that I know of, they all use hdmi. Computer monitors use both so Sharp correctly add a display port connection to that monitor, as they need to do because if they did not it would certainly cost them sales.
Now it is true that nowadays everything in the AV is going over to the computer / IT world. Both still and movie cameras are digital, film has almost entirely disappeared and smart tv's are connected to the internet etc. So hopefully we will one day end up with just one type of connector but that day is yet to arrive.

Looks like AV receivers are starting to ship with HDbaseT to "deliver uncompressed HD video -- even 4K " So maybe new 4K displays can start shipping with that if HDMI 2.0 is not ready.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/26/pioneer-sc-79-receiver-hands-on/
post #27 of 29
I don't see that happening for mainstream displays. Maybe high-end stuff like projectors?
post #28 of 29
Whilst using HDBaseT in this manner is clearly a "good thing" it is still using hdmi 1.4 so the 4k content is restricted to 30fps and the rec709 colour space. In that regard nothing has changed. Still, a handy improvement / option for those wanting to move content around their home. smile.gif
post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by catonic View Post

The problem is that display port is a computer connection, not an AV one. How many AVR's have display port connectors ? None that I know of, they all use hdmi. Computer monitors use both so Sharp correctly add a display port connection to that monitor, as they need to do because if they did not it would certainly cost them sales.
Now it is true that nowadays everything in the AV is going over to the computer / IT world. Both still and movie cameras are digital, film has almost entirely disappeared and smart tv's are connected to the internet etc. So hopefully we will one day end up with just one type of connector but that day is yet to arrive.

I think it would be best to have at least a displayport with new 4k tvs or projectors. I know no other devices have this other than video cards, but they can easily make an adaptor or converter box for the new standard. Displayport can give 4k 2160p60 with 10 bits of color. That's what the new standard is aiming for anyways. I don't know if it would give 3D the 2160p48 but, theres not gonna be 4K 3D for awhile. In 3-4 years, people might upgrade to the new standard anyways but displayport should hold them over for a couple of years.
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