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CNET calls ZT60 "Best-Performing TV We've Ever Tested" - Page 6

post #151 of 164
Hi All,

I seriously resent the comments about lack of scientific methods applied to this shootout, and the comment below is just ignorant. Any good calibrator knows that High Panel Brightness on the Panasonic is unusable. It crushes white and destroys the grayscale tracking to name just two negatives. We also were aiming for a gamma of 2.0 and nothing lower than that. That is also why the THX mode was not considered as its gamma is more on the order of 1.8 in the Bright Room mode.

"" The shootout done and published should be considered null and void. Seriously, how can any decent calibrator don't realize the option of panel brightness? It was there on both Sammy and Pana since at least last year!!"
Edited by Monitorman - 6/7/13 at 5:41am
post #152 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

No i doubt it's for charity.

But it's better than us all walking around with wool pulled down over our eyes for the sake of one manufacturer.

Do you agree with the "expert" vote? Or do you agree with the "audience" vote? If you agree with D-Nice then you also agree with the experts and with me—and you disagree with the audience. eek.gif
Edited by imagic - 6/7/13 at 5:14am
post #153 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monitorman View Post

Hi All,

I seriously recent the comments about lack of scientific methods applied to this shootout, and the comment below is just ignorant. Any good calibrator knows that High Panel Brightness on the Panasonic is unusable. It crushes white and destroys the grayscale tracking to name just two negatives. We also were aiming for a gamma of 2.0 and nothing lower than that. That is also why the THX mode was not considered as its gamma is more on the order of 1.8 in the Bright Room mode.
Quote:
"" The shootout done and published should be considered null and void. Seriously, how can any decent calibrator don't realize the option of panel brightness? It was there on oth Sammy and Pana since at least last year!!"


It is moronic threads like this that keep me from contributing to this forum.

That comment came from a licensed certified calibrator. This thread is about CNET's review, and the fact it chose the ZT60 as the top HDTV of 2013 (and of all time) in terms of image quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

That's why in my own shootout between 111, 8500 and ZT60, I don't find the Sammy to be brighter at all.

The shootout done and published should be considered null and void. Seriously, how can any decent calibrator don't realize the option of panel brightness? It was there on oth Sammy and Pana since at least last year!! eek.gif

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ISF, THX, CEDIA, Control4 & HAA certified
Reviewer for TED, QAV, AUVI & DownUnder Audio Magazine

Edited by imagic - 6/8/13 at 9:09am
post #154 of 164
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the clarification. Yes of course I agree with the calibrators on the Panasonic. I voted for the VT60 because of its superior black level, gamma and other performance parameters and the fact that I do not need a 60 fL. Day mode.
post #155 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

I have the feeling D-Nice is and has explained his opinions very well. Yet it doesn't seem to be enough for "some" people. People who i suspect are in denial. For reasons known only to themselves - their stuff. Get over it.

Personally i trust (independent) experts opinions like D-Nice's (and) more importantly (calibrations) more than anyone else's.

Everyone else should too... Because afaik, independents don't feel the need to be answerable to anyone - in other words keeping others 'ahem'... "happy"

And therefore - can tell it like it (really) is... In AV nowadays sadly - there isn't enough of it nowadays - we' should' be grateful - whether it's what anyone wants to hear, or not, as the case may be.

My two cents

I have respect for independent expert opinions. That's why I am discussing what I view as discrepancies that could have affected the results.

However, the event was not science. It was a well-run popularity contest, conducted in an organized manner with a set of rules—just like American Idol. The results of the vote itself might be indisputable, but the conclusions one draws from them are open to debate.

I would also argue that calibrators do have a self-interest in the whole proceeding. It's called financial gain—I don't think they go through all that effort for the sake of charity.
"Only an Expert" by Laurie Anderson
I would like to know how anyone can do a true scientific display shootout within the parameters of the VE Shootout. I would love to hear, scientifically, how to do that with subjective human judges.
post #156 of 164
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I would like to know how anyone can do a true scientific display shootout within the parameters of the VE Shootout. I would love to hear, scientifically, how to do that with subjective human judges.

It can't be done within reason. I understand that on the calibration side of things, the science is good. I also agree that when it comes to the vote and audience opinion, it's the final tally that counts. The results from this year's shootout got people talking. If the VE shootout were a reality show, the producers would be high-fiving each other.
Edited by imagic - 6/8/13 at 11:20am
post #157 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monitorman View Post

... and the comment below is just ignorant. Any good calibrator knows that High Panel Brightness on the Panasonic is unusable. It crushes white and destroys the grayscale tracking to name just two negatives. We also were aiming for a gamma of 2.0 and nothing lower than that. That is also why the THX mode was not considered as its gamma is more on the order of 1.8 in the Bright Room mode.

" The shootout done and published should be considered null and void. Seriously, how can any decent calibrator don't realize the option of panel brightness? It was there on both Sammy and Pana since at least last year!!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That comment came from a licensed calibrator...

And someone I've been noticing more and more lately here on the forum, but in a negative way, unfortunately. Particularly when it comes to the audio side of things, i.e., revealing a penchant for sloppy, magical thinking. eek.gif
post #158 of 164
Two of us went into Magnolia expecting to each walk out with a ZT65. Afterall, Panny plasmas have always outclassed Sammy, but we weren't blown away. We then went separately to different Magnolia's we each happened by in our travels and then together back to the same Magnolia. We found pluses and minuses to Panny and Sammy. Yes, it's not the ideal place to truly see what the TV's can do (although we did play with the settings). I would love to get comments from you professionals who don't have a bias for or against any of the brands (D-Nice, Mark - your input on the below would be greatly valued):

1. I do not doubt that the ZT/VT is better in a dark room, but how do they compare to the 8500 and each other in "real world" viewing conditions? The rest of us non-professionals only occasionally barricade ourselves in a dark room with our favorite Blu-ray. Thus, how do they perform/compare with non-1080p HD cable/satellite, on-demand (Netflix, iTunes, AOD, etc.), sports (most always with some light), during the morning, day, evening and night with a light or two (and often an iPad or two on)? Where does Sammy's daylight advantage intersect with Panny's darker room advantage?

2. Each experience at the different Magnolias was different, but the most accurate was when they fed Blu-rays from Kaleidescape (at least it wasn't a cable/satellite signal split 20 ways) to the three TV's with the overhead lights off, which created a somewhat normal ambient light environment. The Panny's simply didn't "blow away" the Sammy at all. In fact, even when toning down the brightness of the Sammy, it showed pretty well against the Panny's. In fact, to some extent we kind of liked it a little better, but the well documented strengths and weaknesses of all three panels were evident. Believe me, I'd prefer a Panny "brand" on my wall over Sammy, but, in the end, I really don't care about brand and simply want the TV that's the most versatile.

3. I'm curious about the bias factor of the professionals, if any(?). After reading the reviews and comments, and watching the videos of the shootout, I got the impression the event was biased toward Panny (ie having the attendees only compare the Panny's to the Kuro). Given Sammy's QC's issues with their previous plasmas, which the pros hated, is it much of a stretch to say that the pros in the room (and elsewhere) carry a bit an of anti-Samsung bias? I'll let you guys fight about that amongst yourselves.

4. My bottom line is that if you're happy with your current TV and/or can wait a year or so, you might want to consider holding off to see how the soon-to-be released UHD sets perform or if OLED will become a reasonable reality. Or, hold off until prices drop a bit. I think these sets are overpriced for what you're not getting. Of course, if you're loaded, get one now and replace it in a year or two.
post #159 of 164
I do most of my viewing in the dark with Blu-ray, so (as a nonprofessional) that's my most crucial performance parameter. The 8500 will by default obviously be more versatile in bright room conditions, but the Panasonics will be sufficient in all but the brightest environments. The ZT60's filter is a step above the VT and 8500, so this will also be an appreciated feature with a moderate degree of lighting, though offset to a small degree by being the dimmest of all 3 (if you prize picture accuracy). Concerning bias, there's no way to completely negate it, and that includes the audience. It's not exactly conducive to getting an opinion from the pros by accusing them of bias, however. wink.gif Concerning your last point, achieving PQ on par with a Kuro is a milestone long overdue and at a better price than a Kuro 5 years ago is nothing to sneeze at.
post #160 of 164
I think Samsung advertises much better and spends a lot more money on it.
post #161 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I do most of my viewing in the dark with Blu-ray, so (as a nonprofessional) that's my most crucial performance parameter. The 8500 will by default obviously be more versatile in bright room conditions, but the Panasonics will be sufficient in all but the brightest environments. The ZT60's filter is a step above the VT and 8500, so this will also be an appreciated feature with a moderate degree of lighting, though offset to a small degree by being the dimmest of all 3 (if you prize picture accuracy). Concerning bias, there's no way to completely negate it, and that includes the audience. It's not exactly conducive to getting an opinion from the pros by accusing them of bias, however. wink.gif Concerning your last point, achieving PQ on par with a Kuro is a milestone long overdue and at a better price than a Kuro 5 years ago is nothing to sneeze at.

Thanks for your thoughts! BTW, I figured since I'm willing to face my anti-Samsung bias, perhaps the "applicable" pros might soul search and and be willing to admit theirs, again, if applicable ;-). I think we'd all appreciate the comfort of knowing their viewpoint with any potential biases set aside. And if that leads to the same conclusion, then great!

Regardless, it's good to see three TV's that are worthy of upgrading to a larger set.
post #162 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by mps24 View Post


3. I'm curious about the bias factor of the professionals, if any(?). After reading the reviews and comments, and watching the videos of the shootout, I got the impression the event was biased toward Panny (ie having the attendees only compare the Panny's to the Kuro). Given Sammy's QC's issues with their previous plasmas, which the pros hated, is it much of a stretch to say that the pros in the room (and elsewhere) carry a bit an of anti-Samsung bias? I'll let you guys fight about that amongst yourselves.

I personally have three reasons against Samsung.

1. QC is terrible. I personally had my TV exchanged 4 times in 2 years because they can't fix my TV.
2. QC is terrible. 3 out of my only 4 clients that bought Samsung against my recommendation had their TV replaced twice within the first month (the fourth client's TV is admittedly perfect)
3. My F8500 review sample, after turning it on/off multiple times within one week, had a very faint IR on the "HDMI 1" sign on the top left of the screen.
post #163 of 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I personally have three reasons against Samsung.

1. QC is terrible. I personally had my TV exchanged 4 times in 2 years because they can't fix my TV.
2. QC is terrible. 3 out of my only 4 clients that bought Samsung against my recommendation had their TV replaced twice within the first month (the fourth client's TV is admittedly perfect)
3. My F8500 review sample, after turning it on/off multiple times within one week, had a very faint IR on the "HDMI 1" sign on the top left of the screen.

With all due respect David...

The Panasonic - any of them (the consumer models) aren't exactly renowned for their high end quality control. Every new generation it's almost like an A-Z of what's wrong this year then... "oh yeah, pretty much the same as last but a couple of extras thrown in just for good measure" eek.gif

wink.gif
post #164 of 164
I'm just saying based on my experience. Thus far I've yet to witness a single Panasonic fail on any of my client (and no, I don't own a store, so I have no bias whichever one my clients use)
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