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Commercial Theaters - Page 2

post #31 of 71
David,

Unless you're making constant use of L7 primarily for listening to 2-channel music in surround, I think it might be worth it for you to get the 8801. If you're using L7 mostly for movies, then you won't miss it (PLIIz and Neo:X are excellent with movies). The gains you'll make by moving to the Marantz are substantial, just in HDMI connectivity and (more importantly) the most up-to-date room correction Audyssey has to offer.
post #32 of 71
Thread Starter 
So I met with the contractor today and got some things figured out.

The actual foundation is covered by 2x4 framing and insulation. The good part is that can be removed. The bad part is the foundation cannot be removed. I'll be stuck with about 5", maybe a bit less, of intrusion in that area.

A dedicated 15 amp circuit will be installed for the equipment and lights.

Dedicated projector plug and HDMI plug for projector will ran to mounting point.

L part of room will have the light electrical circuit disconnected form the main theater area ( right now they're connected to the same switch)

HVAC vent on screen wall will be moved back to outside of false wall.

Speaker wires at all locations can be fished should my entire room false wall idea change.

Doors will be built for alcove area to keep reflections consistent as possible.

That's about it. Shouldn't be too expensive, a grand or less depending on amount of sheet rock work that needs to be done.
post #33 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Your room is big enough to do a terrific theatre, assuming proper placement of speakers and seating. However, you have to understand "what's in a movie theater" so you can decide whether you truly want it. Using dipoles for your side and rear speakers will better imitate the diffuse surround field of a movie theatre. If you don't like the idea of doing that, then maybe you don't really want what's in a movie theatre. Movie theatres don't use surround processing, so 90% of the time your rear speakers would be silent. If it bothers you to lose that wrap-around envelopment, then maybe you don't really want what's in a movie theatre.

I use 7 of the same bookshelf speaker all the way around. Keeps the sound consistent from left to right and front to back. Since they're monopoles, I get nice imaging between the speakers for a seamless surround field. Typical movie theatres can't do that sort of precise imaging because they use diffuse arrays of surround speakers. To scale 5.1 soundtracks to my 7.1 layout, I use surround processing, which splits the 2 surround channels into separate pairs of side and rear components. Movie theatres can't do that because the same surround info goes to the speakers at your side and behind you.

It's a completely valid choice to want to imitate the commercial theatre experience. But understand that there are people that want their home theatres to go beyond the sound of the typical auditorium at the local multiplex. If you do want to use 4 monopole surround speakers, then your system won't sound like a movie theatre. Personally, I think it will sound better. But it's up to you to choose.

Is the height for your speakers consistent all the way around?
post #34 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladou20 View Post

Is the height for your speakers consistent all the way around?
No. The L/C/R speakers are the same height (ear level) and all 4 surrounds are the same height (a couple feet above ear level).
post #35 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

No. The L/C/R speakers are the same height (ear level) and all 4 surrounds are the same height (a couple feet above ear level).
Thanks. What do you think of putting the surrounds at ear height if you have no choice? I sit within 3 ft of mine and noticed that they seem to practically disappear when raised above ear level. So, I bought bipoles and lowered them down again.
post #36 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladou20 View Post

What do you think of putting the surrounds at ear height if you have no choice?
If you have no other choice, doesn't really matter what I think. Not like you'd be able to use alternate placement suggestions, even if you wanted to. Just adjust the levels so the nearby surrounds are not distracting.
post #37 of 71
Well, would dipoles be a better option or would it not matter at that distance? Thanks.
Edited by bladou20 - 6/3/13 at 7:29pm
post #38 of 71
If I had to sit within 3 feet of a surround speaker, I could see resorting to dipoles to keep from getting distracted. Make sure you point the speaker's null (quiet zone) at your listening position.
post #39 of 71
Thread Starter 
Sanjay-

Do in wall speakers change anything with the room mode calculations?
post #40 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Do in wall speakers change anything with the room mode calculations?
No, but you do lose the ability to toe-in your speakers (which can be useful).
post #41 of 71
Thread Starter 
Thanks. Yes, I'm aware that is one of the downfalls of going with in wall.

Thing is, with my space toeing in the planned JBL 3677s would just eat more room.

I'm really trying to get that screen as far back as possible. 9ft just seems to close.

When I start to consider what I will benefit more from - JBL Pro cinema speakers @ 9ft. away or in wall speakers @ 10.5" ft away- I really start to question my decision of going with the JBL.

It seems I can get reference level, good quality, front stage using in walls and the added benefit of extra distance between LP and screen. Using in walls in the front would also allow the same in the sides/rear. Again, and added ~1 foot of space gained.

JBL pros would be nice, possibly less expensive, and I think a lot of overkill which let's face it....... overkill is what it's all about. biggrin.gif

I haven't by any means ruled them out yet, but the more I sit in that room staring at the wall 10' in front of me the more I think I'd like the extra room vs. overkill speakers.
post #42 of 71
Speakers sound louder when pointed at you, at least compared to the same speaker pointed away from you. Speakers also sound louder when they are closer to you, compared to the same speaker further away.

Since in-wall speakers point straight out, the listeners on either end of your couch are going to hear a lopsided soundstage, for a couple of reasons. One of the speakers will be much closer to them than the opposite speaker. If that weren't bad enough, the nearby speaker will be pointed at them AND the further away speaker will be pointed away from them, thereby exaggerating the difference. One of those could be distracting, but both combined can cause the nearby speaker to dominate.

A way around this is to do a bit of energy trading. Point the left speaker at the listener on the right end of the couch and point the right speaker at the listener on the left end of the couch. Now those listeners no longer have the double whammy of proximity AND on-axis listening. Since the nearby speaker is pointed away from the listeners AND the far away speaker is pointed at the listener, the proximity is compensated for by listening to the opposite speaker on-axis. Nearby speaker gets slightly quieter while the far away speaker gets slightly louder.

JBL, like other Harman speaker brands, makes a point of designing their speakers with consistent off-axis response. So they'll still sound good even when they're not pointed directly at the listener.

Can't do that with in-walls.
post #43 of 71
Thread Starter 
Food for thought. Any knowledge about JBL In wall speakers? I've seen them mentioned but not often. I could possibly toe in the left and right of an in wall by toing in the entire wall.

I could also possibly solve my problem with an in wall center and same brand out of wall equivelents that sit on the ground. Center would be higher, but tweeter would be ear level to match left and right.

Or a regular center speaker.

With a 120 inch screen and 4" bezel I have 113" screen length. I have to center the woofers 128" apart. That leaves 15" between woofer center and cabinet edge. Heck.... my Jbl pro would fit, they are 25.625" wide.

Im 'talking out loud here' but in doing so now am wondering just how good of an idea it might be to go in wall center and on floor left and right?
post #44 of 71
I think there is a JBL thread in the speaker section, you could try asking about their in-walls there.

As for screen size: you already know which locations (seating, speakers & subs) will be most helpful in smoothening out frequency response, so it is up to you whether you compromise any of those because you want a particular size screen OR adjust screen size to accomodate speaker/seating placement.
post #45 of 71
Thread Starter 
I just looked and i, so far, have not come across any noteworthy JBL in walls.

Its not the screen size, i was just using that as an example kind of typing out loud to help me further address this.

I can go up or down a few inches either way. The center speaker is the issue here. To keep my screen 10' from the LP i cant bump the screen out to accommodate a center channel.

If i went traditional (horizontal) center, i could actually get another 4.5 inches by ripping out the foundation wall, or the at least droop the ledge down x amount of inches.

The problem is viewing distance. There's a compromise to make and i don't think i want it to be viewing distance.
post #46 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

To keep my screen 10' from the LP i cant bump the screen out to accommodate a center channel.

The problem is viewing distance.
Why is it a problem if the viewing distance is less than 10'?
post #47 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Room is 16x12 - 14x12 after 2' false wall w/ AT screen.

I was having a hard time working in heights w/ ceilings only 8'6" and still getting decent L/C/R placed properly behind the AT screen.

The more I thought about the more I really just want what's in a movie theater, and maybe have the 7.1s for the rare times a movie is coded for them. Or maybe I'll like a PLx or NEOx mode with the rear surrounds. I think it's worth it doing the setup phase to just add them.

Dipoles just don't seem like they'd sound as good in my setup vs. side surrounds and rear surrounds.

My demo room is 16.5 x 12 but I didn't lose 2' for an AT screen and baffle wall. We're using Procella Audio P610s which are shallow but very high quality and output. They are mounted in a proper baffle wall. Plenty of output to reach reference level. We also have two Procella Audio P10s in the baffle wall.

In front of that we have a Seymour Screen Excellence screen, but you could use a Seymour AV. The screen is maybe 2" from the front of the speakers. You don't need any speaker / screen separation with a well designed nicely woven AT screen. If you are using a perf AT screen then yes you need separation, like 12-18".

The total depth of all this is 11.5".
post #48 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Why is it a problem if the viewing distance is less than 10'?

For me, it's a compromise that I don't think I'd like, or have to, make. One way or the other I can utilize the shelf space and mount the lower screen against the bottom foundation wall, and the upper screen against the upper front stage.

I've been looking into placing speakers upside down. Including the JBL pro 3677. I can't find any reason, acoustically, that this would not be possible. I talked at length with Klipsch tech support and from an acoustical stand point any of their asymmetrical speakers can be placed upside down to align the tweeter with the ear.

I'm waiting to hear back from JBL, but I can't find anything that says don't do this. The tweeter will be placed over the ledge so the boundary won't be an issue.

I've also been considering the in wall solution and addressing the imaging problem by actually building the wall to properly aim the left and right speakers. This would also allow for hiding corner base traps all the while keeping the the screen as far back as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

My demo room is 16.5 x 12 but I didn't lose 2' for an AT screen and baffle wall. We're using Procella Audio P610s which are shallow but very high quality and output. They are mounted in a proper baffle wall. Plenty of output to reach reference level. We also have two Procella Audio P10s in the baffle wall.

In front of that we have a Seymour Screen Excellence screen, but you could use a Seymour AV. The screen is maybe 2" from the front of the speakers. You don't need any speaker / screen separation with a well designed nicely woven AT screen. If you are using a perf AT screen then yes you need separation, like 12-18".

The total depth of all this is 11.5".

My problem is I have a foundation ledge that is 45" high and 10" deep. I have 10' from the foundation to my seating area. If I don't utilize the ledge I've got 10" of wasted space and 1' less distance from the viewing area.

The plan of a 2' false wall is long gone.
post #49 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

For me, it's a compromise that I don't think I'd like, or have to, make.
I'm still not sure what the compromise is. Is it the 10" of wasted shelf space? Or is there another problem with viewing distance being less than 10'? I sit about 8.5' from my display.
post #50 of 71
Thread Starter 
It's mostly the viewing distance. The 10" of shelf just makes it that much harder to give up a foot.

I moved one of our chairs so that I am sitting 5' away from the back wall. Sitting there It just feels close to me. Cramped.

How big is your screen?
post #51 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

How big is your screen?
60".
post #52 of 71
Thread Starter 
Ya.... so double that and move a half foot back. I don't know.... it's subjective. I'm feeling cramped thinking about 120" in front of my 9' out. I've said I can go down in size, but not that much.
post #53 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Ya.... so double that and move a half foot back. I don't know.... it's subjective. I'm feeling cramped thinking about 120" in front of my 9' out.
Why would I "double that"? If I were doing a projection screen, its size would be based on viewing angle.

At 10' away, a 120" screen will occupy 47° of your horizontal view. If you are 8' away from a 2' false wall, then a 96" screen will occupy the exact same 47° horizontal viewing angle. The image size hasn't changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I've said I can go down in size, but not that much.
Why not? Are you after a large, involving image or is your goal to have a physically imposing object (screen) in the room?
post #54 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Why would I "double that"? If I were doing a projection screen, its size would be based on viewing angle.

At 10' away, a 120" screen will occupy 47° of your horizontal view. If you are 8' away from a 2' false wall, then a 96" screen will occupy the exact same 47° horizontal viewing angle. The image size hasn't changed.
Why not? Are you after a large, involving image or is your goal to have a physically imposing object (screen) in the room?

My point was you're sitting 8.5 away from a 60" screen. Sit in your 8.5' viewing distance and try to picture a 120" screen. Sit at 10' and picture a 120" screen. Every little bit of distance helps. If was going much smaller on the screen I'd get a TV, not a projector.

And, you're right- the screen to seating distance is not anywhere near 'recommendations' but I like the large screen. I always sit closer in the movie theater.

In reading this and other forums I see a lot of people with both huge screens and thousands, if not tens of thousands, of audio gear laid out with little respect to some of the info you've given me and I've read in other places.

In the movie theater, the audio is setup to give a majority of the viewers a good sound regardless of the seat. However, the screen is where it is. The viewer gets to choose the 'view' they like the most (if they get there early)

I'm convinced enough to spend my time and energy getting the audio as close to 'recommendations' as possible, that makes perfect sense to me. I'm also convinced that going larger on the screen is much more of a personal preference and that going outside of 'recommendations' will have very little affect compared to doing the same with audio.

I hope that makes sense. I'm not the best at putting my thoughts on paper, but I try.
post #55 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Sit in your 8.5' viewing distance and try to picture a 120" screen. Sit at 10' and picture a 120" screen. Every little bit of distance helps.
It helps only if you're stuck on a specific screen size, not an image size. At 8.5' away, a 102" screen would give me the exact same size image as a 120" screen from 10' away. You make it sound ike I would end up with a smaller image, when that wouldn't happen. Irrespective of distance being discussed, you always do it in relation to a 120" screen. There must be something about that number that I just don't understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

If was going much smaller on the screen I'd get a TV, not a projector.
You really believe that a smaller screen means a smaller image?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

In reading this and other forums I see a lot of people with both huge screens and thousands, if not tens of thousands, of audio gear laid out with little respect to some of the info you've given me and I've read in other places.
If what they've done makes more sense to you, then you should consider doing the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I hope that makes sense.
Not really, but it doesn't need to since I'm not the one that will have to live with the results. If it makes sense to you, then stick with it.
post #56 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

It helps only if you're stuck on a specific screen size, not an image size. At 8.5' away, a 102" screen would give me the exact same size image as a 120" screen from 10' away. You make it sound ike I would end up with a smaller image, when that wouldn't happen. Irrespective of distance being discussed, you always do it in relation to a 120" screen. There must be something about that number that I just don't understand.
I get what you're saying, I really do.

But there's the reality of it also. At 8.5' away 102" screen is not going to feel like a 120" screen at 10' away.

Just as sitting the 'proper' distance at a theater isn't going to give the feeling of the same sized image.
post #57 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I get what you're saying, I really do.
Doesn't appear that way. It's like someone saying that their speakers are too loud for nearfield placement, asthough there is no option to turn the volume down. Same as saying that a screen is too big for the viewing distance, asthough there is no option to go with a smaller screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

But there's the reality of it also. At 8.5' away 102" screen is not going to feel like a 120" screen at 10' away.
Which is why I asked you earlier if your goal was an immersive image or a physically imposing object in the room. You've made it clear it's the latter (more common than not, especially for first home theatres).
post #58 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post


Which is why I asked you earlier if your goal was an immersive image or a physically imposing object in the room. You've made it clear it's the latter (more common than not, especially for first home theatres).

Yes sir.

On another note I just spoke with JBL Pro support and they told me placing the speaker upside down will be an excellent solution for those speakers at that height. Decisions.
post #59 of 71
Thread Starter 
Hey Sanjay-

Ordered the JBL 3677s and 8320s. I ended up with Power Sound Audio XV30f subs x 2. That's four subs, two per box. what woofer should I align at the 8' mark?

Here is a link for a picture. http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xv30f
post #60 of 71
If you stand them up vertically, then centre the stacked woofers at the quarter points of room width. If you lay them horizontally, centre the cabinet so that the drivers are on either side of that same line and the ports are facing out rather than each other.
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