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Panasonic TC-65PS64 and TC-50PS64 ~OWNER'S POLL~ - Page 8

Poll Results: Are you glad overall that you bought the PanasonicTC-xxPS64?

Poll expired: Jun 22, 2013  
  • 88% (22)
    Yes, totally glad.
  • 0% (0)
    No, I regret it.
  • 12% (3)
    I'm ambivalent. Serious doubts.
25 Total Votes  
post #211 of 758
Just go a 64ps64 at sams club las vegas. really really like it. Costco in las vegas is sold out.would have preffered to purchase from Costco since on tv's they offer a second year warranty . Sams at present told me to get an additonal year have to buy an extened warranty for a minimum of 2 years for $119,then the 4 th year Sams covers. Does not seem as competive and customer oriented as Costco. The pedestal that attches to the ps64 does that swivel or is it stationary. Mine is stationary. Thanks for the help
post #212 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

My first question is, what type of DVD player do you have that has dual outputs, and if it does, what outputs are you using for each device. If one is using composite or S-video or component and the other is using a different output, that might cause a difference. You ideally want both signals to be as close as possible. If the DVD player doesn't have dual-HDMI outputs, then at least you should be doing component on one and HDMI on another or double component.

Secondly, are you ONLY going to be watching Standard def DVD's on your S64 through your DVD player or do you also run HD content through either the antenna for OTA or cable, or are you going to feed it HD programming through another source. The reason is the SDTV is setup with different standards (BT.601 and SMPTE C or a different one for the color gamut vs the HD standards which are BT.709 for both the matrix and color gamut) as a result things will look off from that reason alone. (calibrating by eye for SD sources then noticing that colors are off when viewing HD content through the S64's HDMI or component connection.

Generally to get the skin tones you lower color till you aren't seeing everything too bright, this will desaturate all the colors btw. Then if red is still not looking right you can look into changing the tint. If that still doesn't work then you can also try lowering the red settings for Color detail. I also suggest you stick to Cinema with Contrast at around 80 or 85 and temperature at Warm2, also panel brightness at MId and AGC 0 Black extension 0, color gamut normal with gamma detail at 2.4 Everything else should be at defaults in the Pro menu. In the main menu you should have vivid off, cats off, video nr off and mpeg nr off. These suggestions are only if you are using the S64 as it is intended to watch HD content.



Fairchild99;
Thanks for your reply/feedback re my Red bias issues on my 50S64.
I have a STD def DVD/VCR. My TV reception is via OTA/antenna.
The programs I watch are mostly 480i, some at 720p,1080i.

The antenna cable is connected to the pass-through input connector on the DVD/VCR.
The output cable is connected to my 27” CRT TV which is my reference.
Component cables from the DVD/VCR are connected to the S64.

I rarely play DVD’s but I use it for this calibration because I can stop and hold an image and view that image simultaneously on the S64 and the CRT TV. I’ve been trying to get good facial tones on the S64 but have not succeeded so far. The Red bias not only is very evident in facial tones but also in purple tinged sky that should be clear blue.

I have used the basic settings you suggest in yout 3rd paragraph. I’ve also tried reducing Color to 44.

So I think I’m at the point where you say “…… If that still doesn't work then you can also try lowering the red settings for Color detail.”
Under the Pro settings there are Red settings in W/B and Color Detail:

W/B
High R
Low Red

Color Detail;
R Hue
R Sat
R Lum

  • My query is which, sequentially, of these settings should I vary and to what amount?
  • Would tweaking the G and B settings help?
post #213 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifriend View Post

Just go a 64ps64 at sams club las vegas. really really like it. Costco in las vegas is sold out.would have preffered to purchase from Costco since on tv's they offer a second year warranty . Sams at present told me to get an additonal year have to buy an extened warranty for a minimum of 2 years for $119,then the 4 th year Sams covers. Does not seem as competive and customer oriented as Costco. The pedestal that attches to the ps64 does that swivel or is it stationary. Mine is stationary. Thanks for the help

Discover Card (which Sam's in-store only accepts) gives you a 2nd year warranty.

The pedestal is stationary, but the TV seems light enough to easily swivel the whole unit.
post #214 of 758
Picked up the 50" S64 tonight. So far, it looks stunning. Blu-Ray video is by far the most impressive. Input lag seems to be pretty minimal - about on par with the Wii U's Gamepad, at least according to a bunch of photos I took.

The only gripe I've had so far (and this might just be me needing to get used to modern plasma technology) is some motion blur/phosphor lag. The motion doesn't seem as crystal clear as my parents' TV (which I learned was really expensive in 2007, so maybe it's just a really nice TV?), but is this something that will improve during the break in period? I was hoping that the motion would be a little better than it is. It seems better than an LCD, but not exactly what I was expecting with a plasma. Scrolling in 2D games seems to produce some fuzziness that I wasn't expecting. Are there any settings I'm missing for that? I've basically gone through everything to make sure any automated things like Pixel Orbiter and NR are turned off, so I suppose this is something I'll have to live with.

I have noticed some on other forums saying that phosphor lag was apparent to them at first, but that after the panel aged, they had to try pretty hard to see it (I too have to try very hard to see it on my parents' TV).

Other than that....awesome picture. Great colors out of the box. The ABL isn't as offensive as I thought it might be, especially with the contrast cranked down a little, but it's by no means a scientific test. Not really noticeable to me so far in real life content, aside from seeing what would happen when I tried to play "The Unfinished Swan" on PS3. As a black and white game, the motion blur/phosphor lag was through the roof. I was a little disappointed :-/
post #215 of 758
Thread Starter 
PogueSquadron,

Congrats on your new TV!

A question if I may: How does your S64 screen size and viewing distance compare to your parent's TV? Regarding your question; the following is just one guy's opinion, of course:

I'm certain I saw considerable reduction in motion blur occurring by about 400 hours of normal content usage. I began noticing the reduction mostly after 200 hours. Some other AVS members say the same thing. However, other credible AVS members disagree saying break in makes no difference.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a significant reduction since it was troubling to me at first - a real pest, in fact. However, others will disagree.

I'm curious to see what other S64 owners say about this - including your input after some break in hours if you decide it's a keeper. Additionally, after you get to know the panel, I'd appreciate it if you would post your review or link to same here.

You mentioned another forum or thread regarding motion blur and plasma phosphor lag & aging. Would you be so kind as to link that discussion here? I'd like to read up on it.

Thanks!

mm

edit: My opinion on the above has changed a bit over time as I've begun to learn the difference between outright film motion errors (butchered cinematography) and phosphor lag. It has taken awhile because I didn't have another panel TV to compare to. My former cathode ray TV wasn't a good reference for comparison since it is tiny compared to my S64 and the viewing distance was greater back then.
Edited by MountainMichael - 8/8/13 at 10:14pm
post #216 of 758
MountainMichael et al,

I'm all set to be taken to Costco either Friday night or Saturday morning to buy this HDTV in a 50". But the more I read here, the more freaked out I become! I thought it would be a wonderful experience, just like the buying, setting up, & viewing of my 42" Pani plasma was: get it up & running, and have a Phenominally Good Time with it, just tweaking the picture in tiny increments as you go along, where needed (and Very Little was needed!). I've judged good picture quality in the same way a famous judge defined pornography: I can't precisely define it, but I know it when I see it.

Now I'm reading so much about using slides (don't even know what they are, except what people in the '60s used to take & show via projectors), burn-in periods (which nobody agrees on), and Red Push (I'd thought that was just too much red, which seemed easy to remedy, till I read that it's red that leaks into grey). I'll admit it here and now: although I love good video, and believe I can tell the difference between bad & good, I seem to be reading here that it will be an Absolutely Excruciating Experience to get this HDTV to produce a picture worth watching! Is that really what all of you are saying? Please forgive my utter ignorance in this; but is this TV out of the box a real dog, one that's only worth having if you spend weeks or months tweaking before you have a great HDTV that you can show without shame to your friends?

Before I buy, I'd just like to know: does it have to be so hard to get this particular tv to produce a good picture? And if so, WHY would I want to buy one? By the specs, it seemed to be just what I wanted; but maybe I was wrong. I thought I was pretty smart a/v-wise in that I could connect & utilize my system, but you guys are way beyond me in knowledge. So I'm asking: if y'all can't make the thing look good with all your expertise inhand, how can I possibly hope to enjoy this set, being a total newbie to all these exotic settings that seem necessary??

I came here to learn about this tv, and I have gotten a lot of info about it. But the more I've learned, the more depressed I've become. Even though Costco is now selling them at $599.99, will it be a bad deal for me if I don't want to spend the rest of the year trying to get a good picture out of it? IOW, is there ANY hope that it will be a nice OOB experience, with minimal tweaking later?
post #217 of 758
Thread Starter 
Edit: My post on this was excessively long and was a rehash of what has been covered umpteen times already, so I'm clearing out the clutter.

Condensing it: I'm unaware of any TV to date that was perfect. Appears perfection isn't even remotely possible in the near future at any price point. And that especially includes CRTs, in my experiences. The only aspect where my CRTs approached perfection was: "Perfect back strain."

From my perspective, the performance of my S64 is absolutely amazing for its price point and PQ is far better and brighter than my former/latest/biggest CRT. While my S64 has not been a perfect experience, I am very happy with it. biggrin.gif A strong majority of others who have posted about the S64 have said similar things - not perfect, but very happy with it.
Edited by MountainMichael - 8/9/13 at 12:57pm
post #218 of 758
Viewing distance is much closer than my parents' TV. I have it set up in a nearby room temporarily until I move out. My viewing distance will hopefully be around 7 feet. Same size (50") as my parents' TV, but their couch is probably closer to 10-12 feet . I've noticed phosphor lag on that TV before, but VERY minimally. Mostly notable if I try to play something like The Unfinished Swan (or insert high contrast black and white media here). It seems much worse on the S60, but I chalk that up to the TV simply being fresh out of the box. Our old Phillips plasma is 7 years old at this point, so again, maybe age plays into it.

It's certainly something I think I can live with assuming it lessens over time. I just hope the girlfriend doesn't get sick from it or something. I'm not even going to mention it to be honest, because the last thing I need is to return yet another TV, haha (especially one that my dad had to pay for at CostCo...don't worry, I've paid him in full, hehe).

-Other things I can touch base on....the color/brightness uniformity is out of this world. The whole image looks awesome compared to what I've played on an LCD. The whole image feels illuminated, not just the middle or the sides.

-I've come to the conclusion that I've really overblown the ABL situation. Maybe I'll feel different when it's brighter in the room, but it wasn't really bothering me at all once I turned the contrast down a little. It felt too bright even with an all white screen (though granted, my eyes are pretty tired right now). We all have different tolerances and I think I'm finding that this isn't an issue for me at all.

-The input lag is awesome (for me). I know some are more sensitive to it than others, but this is about as good as I would expect from a TV this size. IF I have time tomorrow, I'll try to get some more hands on impressions. Maybe something like Donkey Kong Country Returns or a Halo game. The TV does feel similar to both the Wii U Gamepad and my PC monitor, both of which seem to clock in around 2 frames of lag.

- Buzzing wise...I dunno, it sounds like a plasma. I don't really have anything to write about this one. Maybe Amanda will be annoyed with it because she's not used to a plasma, but I don't think it's a big deal at all. I noticed two pops tonight in the couple hours I've used the TV, but I'm no stranger to having electronics pop and compress. Again, seemed to be a non issue. (FWIW, I think the pop came from the upper right side of the TV, my upper left when looking at it head on).

- I didn't realize I could do this, but I actually sent a YouTube video to the TV instantly. I didn't need to change inputs or anything. It was pretty cool! It took a few seconds but it got there. I think that will actually be super handy, especially if it will automatically zip to the video without requiring me to change the input.

- The scenes on my Disney WOW disc looked gorgeous.

- Re: Motion blur - I was starting to think that it didn't seem so bad at the end of tonight, although maybe I just got used to it. Still, it's not as blurry as a typical LCD screen. It's just noticeable when a light thing is next to a dark thing mostly. New Super Mario Bros. U didn't seem to scroll with the kind of clarity that it did on my parents' old Phillips (which was admittedly like $4k when they got it 7 years ago). I'd take this blur over LCD blur any day of the week, especially if the phosphor lag lessens. I'll also admit to firing up Super Metroid out of the box and being pretty disappointed that I wasn't getting that "almost CRT" like motion that I expected from a plasma.

- I am noticing a rainbow effect, but I'm just going to have to either assume it'll lessen over time, or I'll just get used to it. I have to admit, it (along with some pretty glaring phosphor lag) was pretty bothersome tonight, but again, I'm sure it will be better with time. I've never even heard about this until lately and I can't imagine that it will stay this bad.
Edited by PogueSquadron - 8/8/13 at 11:05pm
post #219 of 758
Thread Starter 
PogueSquadron,

Thank you for providing detailed input. I believe this adds value to the thread.

I've read about so called "plainbows". Apparently, some people see them, some don't. I haven't learned how to see them so I'm going to go ahead and NOT try to learn that. wink.gif Since I can't see them, I have no first hand knowledge if they reduce over time. However, from what I've read, it appears they do NOT.

According to several trustworthy sources, increasing viewing distance usually helps with motion blurring whether it is from phosphor lag or from botched filming. I'm at 8 to 9 feet with my 65, so again, it was a pest and I personally believe it reduced. There's no question I've probably adapted some, too. It was never as bad as at the movie theater where camera antics will sometimes make me close my eyes to avoid nausea. I think your planned course of action regarding that and your SO is a wise one.

I won't say I'm seeing CRT like motion, but again, my CRT was so small and farther away - I have no point of reference.

I'm glad to hear that your overall impression is favorable so far. Best of luck & please keep the thread apprised of your thoughts.

mm
Edited by MountainMichael - 8/8/13 at 11:12pm
post #220 of 758
Congrats on the buy Poguey! I didn't think you'd get one this soon. tongue.gif
How are the blacks? I've heard one user say they were even deeper than last years VT50, which at this point should be good enough for me. I don't need pure bezel blacks(although it would be nice!), hell my current CRT can't even achieve them. A solid noticeable improvement over my S30's black levels would be good enough. And i kind of hear you on the motion blur, plasmas in this area are better than any LCD or LED out there....But by plasma standards, my S30 is a little bit weaker than my other LG 720p plasma i picked up. I hear Samsung's highest end 2013 plasma is the champ in this field, including brightness levels that can almost match an LED.

That model would of been more than ideal if it weren't for it's 50ms+ of input lag. And great to hear that the ABL isn't as bad as you thought it was going to be. Also, how are the gamma controls working for you? Have you noticed any weird color inaccuracies? One user mentioned that this set suffers from a bit of a red push.
post #221 of 758
As an aside: The following is a compilation of some scattered comments I found regarding phosphor lag and age of the panel. For all I know, this may also tie in with the "rainbow effect" that some experience.

If this is freaking anyone out, please understand that this is super inside baseball stuff. Many people don't notice the things we're talking about, and some say that these issues reduce over time. Really, this is all a balancing act. Every TV technology has its pros and cons (look at any of the LCD threads for people complaining about clouding or flashlighting or viewing angles or what have you). Even CRTs, I'm sure, have their own set of issues. Most people just buy a TV and don't think about it....but unfortunately, here some of us are!


http://www.avforums.com/forums/plasma-tvs/1033394-any-plasma-dont-have-phosphor-trails.html - The user Monarch says this towards the end: "Phosphor trailing does go down with age, particularly in the first 500 hours because this is when the phosphors are at their harshest, they're all energetic and ready to go, then they calm down"

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/plasma-phosphor-trail-2007040133.htm This article suggests several ways to reduce phosphor lag, including lowering contrast, avoiding black and white video material, sitting further away, using subtle ambient lighting, and waiting for the "luminosity of the phosphors to reduce naturally through normal use."

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/321771-phosphor-trails-on-panasonic-plasmas-is-there-any-hope/ User schan1269 states the following:
"I was ISF certified. I let it lapse(3 years ago). Reducing the contrast and brightness(most "out of the box" settings are twice what you need) will mitigate the issue. On AVForum(the UK site) there have been people that said "the trail" didn't go completely away till 3000 hours. Most people who "considered it a problem" still said it went away by 1000-1500. Even Kuro had the problem their first 500 hours. So you have a choice... Exchange the set. Or calibrate it and hope it goes away(enough for you) by 1500 hours."
post #222 of 758
Thread Starter 
PogueSquadron,

Excellent info and links. Much appreciated!

mm
post #223 of 758
1.) Haven't really touched gamma controls aside from throwing in one of fairchild's settings on a whim. I couldn't tell you if they positively or negatively affected the PQ. I'm not going to worry about it until I have more hours on the TV.

2.) It's...I dunno, it's pretty black. Maybe things will seem more washed out in the daytime, but it's pretty close to blending with the bezel. I can tell when the TV is on, certainly, but when actual content is being displayed, your pupils dilate and the blacks are very dark.

3.) The motion isn't as smooth as I was hoping for...but it's a noticeable improvement over my LCD TV. One nifty way to test this is to go into New Super Mario Bros. U and scroll around the overworld map. When the Miiverse comments pop up, you can see how the text appears on the Gamepad, and how it appears on the TV. In my experience, the text on the Gamepad was noticeably more blurred out than the text on the S64. The blurring comes into the equation when you start moving faster. Things did seem a tad blurry when running through a level in NSMBU or the Rayman Legends app.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to hook my PC up to the TV until I move out, so I won't be able to comment on that department. I'd say all in all, all signs are pointing at this being a keeper.**Again, it helps this time that someone else was involved in the purchase, because i'm liable to drive myself to insanity if someone doesn't keep their eye on me.

**Actually, I could totally hook my PC up to the TV if I wanted to, but the less I have to move things around and unplug things, the better right now. No patience for that ATM, haha.

So basically I think I just need to clock a **** load of hours into the TV. Man, I should've saved Xenoblade, haha. That would've been 80 hours I could plop onto the TV. I have Ni No Kuni arriving soon (got it for $20), and I know the GF is itching to get Disney Infinity.
post #224 of 758
in regards to the comment made about All TV technologies having flaws....Well, in terms of pure PQ performance 'CRT' I'd say only has one and that would be geometry issues, IF your set even has any. Otherwise, the PQ is stable. No motion blur, no ABL, no IR, no clouding, no edge light bleeding and most importantly for us gamers out there 'no' input lag. it's a shame that they weigh as much as the T-Rex in Jurassic park, because ultimately they are the least flawed technology of the current 3.

Everybody should have a good ol' CRT on the side next to their main Grand daddy display. wink.gif CRT's ultimate replacement will be Super OLED whenever they actually arrive and are affordable in varied sizes! But we have to make due to with the flaws and struggling to find a set were content with, ESPECIALLY when it comes to games.

I even find that my S30's slight blurring takes me out of whatever movie i'm watching....What good is a realistic HD/bluray picture when the motion can't keep up with the resolution. People don't have faint blur when they move around in real life do they? This is why I've always falled back on CRT. BUT you do get used to it, and my previous 42" 720p LG plasma held it's own in this area, it was so good to the point where all i really noticed was the dithering effect.

A quick question though, the S60's motion blur can't be anyworse than the S30's can it?....Say it aint so! Now i'm really scared!tongue.gif
Edited by WaveBoy - 8/8/13 at 11:43pm
post #225 of 758
I really couldn't tell you, nor do I really have any way of showing you, unfortunately (unless there's a good way to do so? I have a really nice DSLR that I can maybe take a photo of the screen scrolling). I must admit, I was a little put off when I threw in Super Metroid, though I might also need to back up from the TV a bit to get a better feel for it.

It's very, very late here and I must go to bed. Busy day tomorrow.
post #226 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by PogueSquadron View Post

I really couldn't tell you, nor do I really have any way of showing you, unfortunately (unless there's a good way to do so? I have a really nice DSLR that I can maybe take a photo of the screen scrolling). I must admit, I was a little put off when I threw in Super Metroid, though I might also need to back up from the TV a bit to get a better feel for it.

It's very, very late here and I must go to bed. Busy day tomorrow.

whoops, that last question wasn't directed at you dude. XP just to anybody who has gone hands on with both sets. It would be baffling if the S60 performed worse in this area, but maybe it's possible....after all, your parents 2006 plasma based on your experience has the S60's motion beat. eek!

Also, on my S30 when playing Rayman Origins(PS3 and Wii) the blur is extremely faint when running past the screen....the 'dithering' is really the only things that's somewhat noticable. On my other LCD the entire screen would smear....it was just awful. when your used to plasma motion, going back to LCD or LED is just painful, i can't do it.(Insert 'impulse mode' as LED's motion handeling 'hope'.lol) But when i fire up a title that's running in 60 frames per second like Metroid Prime 3 for example and start rotating the screen with my reticule in circles there's some slight blurring but again MILES better than your standard LCD or LED.

Anyways, i want the brightest and most colorful picture when gaming for titles like NSMB.U, Nintendo Land, Pikmin 3 ect ect. I'm guessing selecting custom, setting the contrast to max and panel brightness to high would do the trick? Also, i'm guessing you turned off all of noise reduction, color management and whatever other modes that stir up more picture processing when gaming to get the lowest lag possible. Hmm, i guess 2 frames really is the ticket with this set if it performs just as well as playing something like NSMB.U on the wii u game pad.
post #227 of 758
Where would one find the Fairchild settings and how to begin breaking in this set in particular? Also if anyone still has the box that the 65" version came in, could you give me dimensions so I know if it will fit in my vehicle to get it home from Costco (HxWxD)? Thanks in advance.
Edited by vr6veedub - 8/9/13 at 9:23am
post #228 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by fibonacci3 View Post

The antenna cable is connected to the pass-through input connector on the DVD/VCR.
The output cable is connected to my 27” CRT TV which is my reference.
Component cables from the DVD/VCR are connected to the S64.

I rarely play DVD’s but I use it for this calibration because I can stop and hold an image and view that image simultaneously on the S64 and the CRT TV. I’ve been trying to get good facial tones on the S64 but have not succeeded so far. The Red bias not only is very evident in facial tones but also in purple tinged sky that should be clear blue.

W/B
High R
Low Red

Color Detail;
R Hue
R Sat
R Lum

  • My query is which, sequentially, of these settings should I vary and to what amount?
  • Would tweaking the G and B settings help?[/SIZE]

That could be a problem since the output of the CRT is a different signal than the component being fed to the S64. Anyway, if you are going to adjust a relatively bright scene, then you would want to lower the High R, Then for the Hue/Sat/Lum you can change those. I can't really give you specifics as what you are trying to do is a very imperfect and not very scientific approach at what you are trying to accomplish. You are trying to eyeball a 480i SD signal to calibrate an HDTV for a source that you said you won't even be using much. So the changes you make to the 480i DVD signal will probably not even transfer over when you are watching 720p/1080i or even 480i through your OTA signal. Just play with the knobs and see if you can accomplish what you want, you won't harm your TV, and you can always reset everything back to defaults.
post #229 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by vr6veedub View Post

Where would one find the Fairchild settings and how to begin breaking in this set in particular? Also if anyone still has the box that the 65" version came in, could you give me dimensions so I know if it will fit in my vehicle to get it home from Costco (HxWxD)? Thanks in advance.

Fairchild's settings are in his link in his signature. They are also linked on page 1 of the S60 thread. The link to the manual for the 65S64 that contains box dimensions is also on page 1 of the S60 thread.
post #230 of 758
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

in regards to the comment made about All TV technologies having flaws....Well, in terms of pure PQ performance 'CRT' I'd say only has one...

Based on my experiences with CRTs, I'll have to strongly disagree.

My previous TV was a 36" CRT. It had numerous PQ problems throughout its life that couldn't be adjusted out and overall its PQ cannot compare to my S64. Not even in the same ballpark. Not even for brightness though its PQ defects were much more complex and serious than that.

While a gigantic, ugly, tacky looking, disc destroying TANK to move and poor PQ, my main reason for finally replacing it was enormous popping. That CRT's popping was loud enough to wake the dead. It wasn't popping, really. It was more like detonations. The last CRT before that one was replaced due to titanic buzzing and color washing out on bright scenes. That started at just over 1 year of usage. Even before the power supply went 4 up, the PQ on that CRT was even more lame than the later CRT.

Comparing my former CRTs PQ to my S64 is like... well, comparing a Yugo to any real car.

So no, In my experience, I cannot agree that CRT automatically means near perfect PQ. In my latest 2 experiences, it meant lame PQ. I can't believe I lived with that junk as long as I did. OTOH, one out of two of the CRTs did continue to run for more than a year without total failure... ...as long as I was willing to put up with poor color, mediocre resolution, dim picture and gunshots very often.

I must admit there was one clear benefit (sarcasm): When I'd fall asleep as I often do, the CRT would wake me up at least every 10 minutes with a 120 (+? ;-) db

BANG!!!

Kidding ? aside, but I never got used to that. I'd jump out of my skin every single time.

That CRT was a pest in so many ways.

This thread isn't about CRT owner satisfaction and I seriously doubt any of us want to go back to a CRT and their many shortcomings. Let's keep the thread on track looking for input from S64 & S60 owners and questions from prospective buyers.


edit: That CRT still makes loud pops about 6 times a day and it's not even plugged in. The PQ is much better when it is unplugged, though. biggrin.gif
Edited by MountainMichael - 8/9/13 at 1:32pm
post #231 of 758
Thread Starter 
Post 1 of this thread was butched up right before I had to rush out of town. I (hopefully) made it friendlier today. Apologies for leaving it with a rough appearance.


fairchild99,

How many hours does your S60 have now? 1300 or more? I have about 650 on my S64, I think. I'm not logging the hours anymore, though, so that guess is becoming wilder by the day.

Do you think new S64's might be seeing red push with your later settings due to new panels having significantly less aging of their phosphors?

Thanks,

mm
post #232 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

My previous TV was a 36" CRT. It had numerous PQ problems throughout its life that couldn't be adjusted out and overall its PQ cannot compare to my S64. Not even in the same ballpark. Not even for brightness though its PQ defects were much more complex and serious than that.

While a gigantic, ugly, tacky looking, disc destroying TANK to move and poor PQ, my main reason for finally replacing it was enormous popping. That CRT's popping was loud enough to wake the dead. It wasn't popping, really. It was more like detonations. The last CRT before that one was replaced due to titanic buzzing and color washing out on bright scenes. That started at just over 1 year of usage. Even before the power supply went 4 up, the PQ on that CRT was even more lame than the later CRT.

So no, In my experience, I cannot agree that CRT automatically means near perfect PQ. In my latest 2 experiences, it meant lame PQ. I can't believe I lived with that junk as long as I did. OTOH, one out of two of the CRTs did continue to run for more than a year without total failure... ...as long as I was willing to put up with poor color, mediocre resolution, dim picture and gunshots very often.

Michael, what brand was your CRT?

Mine was a 34" Sony XBR800, the model just before the reference standard XBR960, which had something like 50% more lines of resolution. The PQ was very good, but the S64 blows it away in terms of brightness, life-likeness, color, and geometry. The geometry of the CRT was unfixable. The upper edge was not horizontal, and no matter what I did, I couldn't get the image to a horizontal straight line. With the naked eye, I could only tell it was very off up there and don't know how much it distorted the rest of the picture to the middle of the screen. Also, when I looked closeup at the CRT, I could clearly see the pixel edges. When I look at my S64 within a couple of feet of the screen, I can't make out any pixels except some text has jaggies, and I suspect that is with SD or 780p content as the graphical text on our local NBC station (1080i) news broadcasts is perfect. My only real issue with plasma or LCD technology was motion blur, but that was a few years ago and I think either it was a bad feed or the technology has matured to solve that. The only possible weakness of the S64 is rare posterization and the heat generated. Seeing as the 65S64 is 4-5 times larger display area, half the weight, way less protrusive (takes up 1/3 of my A/V stand even including the pedestal), and equivalent power consuming (which would really only be 1/4 to 1/5 the power if it were a 34"), and even the amount of heat it puts out I'm not sure is 4-5 times as much. I'd never go back to a small (in comparison) CRT.
post #233 of 758
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTimeShifter View Post

Michael, what brand was your CRT?

Mine was a 34" Sony XBR800, the model just before the reference standard XBR960, which had something like 50% more lines of resolution. The PQ was very good, but the S64 blows it away in terms of brightness, life-likeness, color, and geometry. The geometry of the CRT was unfixable. The upper edge was not horizontal, and no matter what I did, I couldn't get the image to a horizontal straight line. With the naked eye, I could only tell it was very off up there and don't know how much it distorted the rest of the picture to the middle of the screen. Also, when I looked closeup at the CRT, I could clearly see the pixel edges. When I look at my S64 within a couple of feet of the screen, I can't make out any pixels except some text has jaggies, and I suspect that is with SD or 780p content as the graphical text on our local NBC station (1080i) news broadcasts is perfect. My only real issue with plasma or LCD technology was motion blur, but that was a few years ago and I think either it was a bad feed or the technology has matured to solve that. The only possible weakness of the S64 is rare posterization and the heat generated. Seeing as the 65S64 is 4-5 times larger display area, half the weight, way less protrusive (takes up 1/3 of my A/V stand even including the pedestal), and equivalent power consuming (which would really only be 1/4 to 1/5 the power if it were a 34"), and even the amount of heat it puts out I'm not sure is 4-5 times as much. I'd never go back to a small (in comparison) CRT.

Roger,

Both were Toshibas, so budget oriented. 'Course my S64 is budget oriented, too... ;-)

Thanks for your supportive input that your higher end CRTs also had some noteworthy areas falling short of our S64s. Your input is appreciated.

Not referring to your input at all, but too often, it can be easy for many to become nostalgic about how things were before - not realizing tech is much better now than then in many ways. I do this many times myself regarding autos, so I'll use that as an analogy. I pine for an original 1970 SS454 Chevelle 4 speed car I owned in high school. But ya know what? My current 06 Stang GT (supercharged, intercooled, water/meth injected, etc) would kill that Chevelle in the quarter mile by over 2 seconds and it would destroy it on a road course... and it gets triple the gas mileage and 10 times the driveability. Still, while it defies logic, I'm nostalgic sometimes. Though I'll never pretend the Chevelle did anything better; it didn't. Back to electronics...

One thing I have noticed with consumer electronics of all kinds: It appears manufacturers have decided a lot more QC is to be done in the home versus in production. I've bought various electronics recently and had to swap quite a few things though I've always (so far) ended up with some pretty good stuff. Consumer guides lists Panny TV's with 2 in 100 of major failures in the first short while; 30 days I think. And Pannys were listed among the lowest. If that sounds bad, they list Sammys as 5 in one hundred.

It wasn't terribly long ago where 2 in 1000 would not be acceptable.

But then again, I continually reflect that my S64 provides astonishing performance for what I paid. So maybe the new QC standard is benefiting us...??

There was some logistical hassle in the one ST60 panel I had to swap out (partly because I live in the middle of nowhere), but I still think it was well worth it. I'd have thought that months later, my S64 wouldn't be "wowing" me any more. But plug in a reference quality blu ray and it still totally blows me away.

I'd never go back to a CRT either.

Michael
Edited by MountainMichael - 8/9/13 at 7:05pm
post #234 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

fairchild99,

How many hours does your S60 have now? 1300 or more? I have about 650 on my S64, I think. I'm not logging the hours anymore, though, so that guess is becoming wilder by the day.

Do you think new S64's might be seeing red push with your later settings due to new panels having significantly less aging of their phosphors?

Thanks,

mm

I measured 1108:40 hrs on 7-7-13 Probably at this point tack on another few hundred hours. It could be panel aging and it could just be variance, no way to tell for sure. My guess is that in more than a few cases, it's people not used to the warmer feel of the 6500k calibrated temperature, especially if they came from an LCD/LED which was on a cooler temperature at like 7000-9000k temperature (warm1-normal-cool-cool2 etc...)

After say 500+ hours plasmas tend to really level out in the phosphor aging and the change in perceived brightness shouldn't be varying that much. Sure they will always continue to age, but it shouldn't be to the point where calibrations themselves will have that big of an impact once the phosphors are matured.
post #235 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

Both were Toshibas, so budget oriented. 'Course my S64 is budget oriented, too... ;-)

My first TV was a 20" Toshiba with side speakers, not budget, but next best as Toshiba and Panasonic CRTs were ranked just below Sony in PQ. When that died, the HDTV format was just getting started, so I decided to go with the best HD CRT, a 34" Sony XBR. When that started to die earlier this year, I decided on a plasma, and while LG and Samsung were considered "very good PQ" by Consumer Reports, Panasonic was ranked just a bit better by them and a few other sources, so I decided to go with the best. Even though the S60/S64 are considered the bottom of the line for Panasonic, they top the competition, price wise as well.
post #236 of 758
OOB Experience for PS64 50" is PHENOMENAL!!

The purchase at Costco: I can certainly see why Panasonic is having trouble selling plasmas if the Gwinnett (county) Georgia Costco is typical. The display unit was so poorly set up that its picture was nearly greyed-out, esp. when compared to the many LED/LCD sets. (I'd asked by phone before going if the display was connected to a blu-ray player, hoping to take a disc w/me, but it wasn't; it turned out to have just some uninteresting store feed.) There was no remote available with which to do a basic corrective setup on it, either.

When I told the salesclerk which set I wanted to buy, and pointed to it, she said, "You know it's a plasma, right?" ... like she was asking me if I were sure I wanted to buy the day-old bread when they had fresh available. I told her this was the set I wanted. Still, she proceeded to inform me of "reflection problems when not viewing in the dark, that plasmas were "the old technology," etc. I told her that Panasonic has continued to research & implement improvements to the technology every year, and that they will continue to do so for at least another year [that's what I've read]. I felt called upon also to point out to her that plasmas have deeper blacks & truer colors than LEDs/LCDs, and that this HDTV has had stellar reviews. And the clerk could not even fathom that perhaps the display unit had been improperly set up; she insisted that since the picture was bad compared to the others, any unit sold would look the same at home! The way that unit looked, it was almost as though someone had deliberately set it up to drain out all color & brightness. If I'd been able to test a Blu-ray DVD, I actually don't think it could have made a difference on that set. Anyway, the clerk finally said, "Well, it looks like you've done your homework and know what you're doing." I said, "Yes, and I'd like to buy one of these, and not one of the others, if you have no further objections to my doing so. I came here to buy this set, and no other, and I'm leaving with this, or nothing." Gees!! First time I've ever had to justify to a salesclerk my intention to make a $600 purchase!

BTW, it did travel to its new home standing up. Turns out my neighbor's SUV had the headroom, with less than an inch to spare! I placed pillows & a big blanket beside it, just in case she had to suddenly veer in traffic. Plus, I held onto it going around the few turns we had to make. But unlike her usual driving, she drove slowly and carefully, bless her! All was well.

Setup & Testing: Once my friend the installer had it attached to the pedestal and up on the glass rack where the Pani 42" had been, all I had to do was plug it into the wall & connect the AVR's HDMI-out to the HDMI1 input. I just ran the Quick Setup, while my friends (2 adults, 1 child) anxiously waited to see the results. They were thrilled with how it looked with the defaults, with the Dish Network feed, but waited till I made just a few minor adjustments. (The default picture was NOTHING LIKE the awful display unit in Costco! I wish I knew how to contact someone important at Panasonic to let them know how Costco Gwinnett is sabotaging their sales.)

I only made these minor adjustments, and am completely happy with the results in PQ:
Picture Mode: Cinema
Contrast: Took it down only 1 point, to 84
Color Temp: went from Warm 2 to Warm 1
Video NR: Off

I also remembered to go into the Dish menu & change the display from 720p to 1080i. That helped noticeably.

That's it! I've tested it on Dish feed, Dish DVR HD content, 3 Blu-rays, a regular DVD, Netflix, and Amazon Video; all look fabulous. No Red Push here, no artifacts during fast motion; it's all good. BTW, the person who said that when black goes to the edge of the screen that it's so black that it merges with the panel's edges, like for some movies when the credits are scrolling, was absolutely right. Amazing. My 42" certainly couldn't display black like that! Also, all the colors of the spectrum are bright when they should be, and subtle and muted when appropriate. (In a Blu-ray of Lonesome Dove, the browns & beiges of the desert setting were beautifully displayed while still providing a clear picture.)

It's remotely possible that I'll tweak some settings later; but with the picture I have now, I don't see why I would bother.

All that being said, I'm still keeping the packing box, just in case the unthinkable should happen. I wonder how long I should save it?

Netflix via this unit: I did set up the tv to access my Netflix account, but was not at all pleased. I tested the connection w/an episode of Bones in HD, and it was jerky and tended to pixilate. I later ran the same episode from the same point using my Sony Blu-ray player, & had none of those problems; the picture was perfect. (This show is really good for testing, IMHO. The lab has a good sense of depth, and there are lots of shiny, reflective objects in it. The outdoor scenes of the "Jeffersonian" (I believe it's really grounds surrounding the Smithsonian complex of buildings in D.C.) are beautiful. Conclusion: I'll stick with my Sony Blu-ray for Netflix, as well as for Amazon, etc. If others here need this feature, I hope they'll have better results. If you're not already on Netflix, it does give you a free 30-day trial.

A New Question: I've seen some warnings here that seem to be about black bars, and b&w in general. I was using the Blu-ray X-Men 2 to test, & it was obviously recorded in a wider format than 16:9, so there were black bars above and below. Should I avoid using these movies for awhile to prevent burn-in, and if so, for how long? What about old b&w movies? I love really old movies, and often watch Turner Classic Movies channel; I also have many DVDs recorded from TCM. Are these double-jeopardy, since most are both b&w AND have black bars on the sides, because of being natively 4:3 ratio? (I am enough of a purist that I will not watch them in any screen-filling format.) Are any/all of the above dangerous to my new Pani during its infancy? If so, how long till it can learn to love them? I will normally have this tv running for about 8 hours a day, but could leave it on for longer if it would help. Can anyone answer this question for me? TIA.

I will say that it kind of stinks that there's no extensive manual included in the box for these sets, but there's one in .pdf format online at Panasonic. Anyone interested can view/download it here:
http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/E-HELP_PS64.PDF

So that's my OOB Experience that I promised to post. In a word, fantastic!
post #237 of 758
I want to know why these TVs are $350 more in Canada than the U.S!!
post #238 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oimagination View Post

I want to know why these TVs are $350 more in Canada than the U.S!!

Probably because Canada gets free nationwide health care, so they need to make up the money somehow. wink.gif

Seriously though, probably something more in-depth like supply and demand or something similar.
post #239 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caely View Post

The purchase at Costco: I can certainly see why Panasonic is having trouble selling plasmas if the Gwinnett (county) Georgia Costco is typical. The display unit was so poorly set up that its picture was nearly greyed-out, esp. when compared to the many LED/LCD sets. (I'd asked by phone before going if the display was connected to a blu-ray player, hoping to take a disc w/me, but it wasn't; it turned out to have just some uninteresting store feed.) There was no remote available with which to do a basic corrective setup on it, either.

When I told the salesclerk which set I wanted to buy, and pointed to it, she said, "You know it's a plasma, right?" ... like she was asking me if I were sure I wanted to buy the day-old bread when they had fresh available. I told her this was the set I wanted. Still, she proceeded to inform me of "reflection problems when not viewing in the dark, that plasmas were "the old technology," etc. I told her that Panasonic has continued to research & implement improvements to the technology every year, and that they will continue to do so for at least another year [that's what I've read]. I felt called upon also to point out to her that plasmas have deeper blacks & truer colors than LEDs/LCDs, and that this HDTV has had stellar reviews. And the clerk could not even fathom that perhaps the display unit had been improperly set up; she insisted that since the picture was bad compared to the others, any unit sold would look the same at home! The way that unit looked, it was almost as though someone had deliberately set it up to drain out all color & brightness. If I'd been able to test a Blu-ray DVD, I actually don't think it could have made a difference on that set. Anyway, the clerk finally said, "Well, it looks like you've done your homework and know what you're doing." I said, "Yes, and I'd like to buy one of these, and not one of the others, if you have no further objections to my doing so. I came here to buy this set, and no other, and I'm leaving with this, or nothing." Gees!! First time I've ever had to justify to a salesclerk my intention to make a $600 purchase!

Setup & Testing: Once my friend the installer had it attached to the pedestal and up on the glass rack where the Pani 42" had been, all I had to do was plug it into the wall & connect the AVR's HDMI-out to the HDMI1 input. I just ran the Quick Setup, while my friends (2 adults, 1 child) anxiously waited to see the results. They were thrilled with how it looked with the defaults, with the Dish Network feed, but waited till I made just a few minor adjustments. (The default picture was NOTHING LIKE the awful display unit in Costco! I wish I knew how to contact someone important at Panasonic to let them know how Costco Gwinnett is sabotaging their sales.)

All that being said, I'm still keeping the packing box, just in case the unthinkable should happen. I wonder how long I should save it?

A New Question: I've seen some warnings here that seem to be about black bars, and b&w in general. I was using the Blu-ray X-Men 2 to test, & it was obviously recorded in a wider format than 16:9, so there were black bars above and below. Should I avoid using these movies for awhile to prevent burn-in, and if so, for how long? What about old b&w movies? I love really old movies, and often watch Turner Classic Movies channel; I also have many DVDs recorded from TCM. Are these double-jeopardy, since most are both b&w AND have black bars on the sides, because of being natively 4:3 ratio? (I am enough of a purist that I will not watch them in any screen-filling format.) Are any/all of the above dangerous to my new Pani during its infancy? If so, how long till it can learn to love them? I will normally have this tv running for about 8 hours a day, but could leave it on for longer if it would help. Can anyone answer this question for me?

It's all Costcos and Sam's that don't know how to display plasmas (the S60 thread has lots of examples). Also Panasonic doesn't help their sales by having their default Standard setting with power savings and CATS on. They should probably have a demo setting that is Cinema with CATS and power savings off - the stores don't give a crap about power savings with 50+ TVs running all day long. Also you can't expect to get a knowledgeable A/V salesperson in a warehouse store or general merchandise store like Sears. You'll be lucky to get one that knows anything about A/V in a Best Buy if you're lucky. You'd have to go to a specialty A/V or TV store to get a knowledgeable salesman. All the general dumb public will notice in a typical store is that the LEDs are bright and colorful and plasmas look dim - no wonder why manufacturers are abandoning plasma.

I'd save the packing box for however long the warranties you have, assuming you have the storage space.

Allowing black bars may produce IR or not age the phosphors consistently in the first 300 or so hours of your set. I'd use the fill modes for non 16:9 content. I have a b&w Maltese Falcon DVD that I checked out from the library and have to return in a couple of weeks. I should be past 300 hours by now, but will use my fill settings to avoid black bars when I watch it as long as they don't chop off content or distort the image. It'll be a good test to see how my 65S64 displays really old b&w SD movies.
Edited by HDTimeShifter - 8/11/13 at 8:09pm
post #240 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

...it can be easy for many to become nostalgic about how things were before - not realizing tech is much better now than then in many ways...
I'd never go back to a CRT either.

I was working on my server in the basement today and it has a 20" CRT, but it is so dim that it is hard to make out some text on dark backgrounds so I decided to replace it with a spare 20" Dell (Sony Trinitron) CRT that came with my first PC in '98. After the swap, I noticed some pixellation (especially in letters) so tried out another spare 20" CRT, but text was blurry and kind of out of focus on that one. In the old days Sony Trinitrons were the king of CRTs for TVs and monitors, but they all suffer from pixellation and that dreaded line 3/4s of the way down the screen. I finally replaced my main computer's 21" CRT with a 24" wide screen LCD last year, but the one thing I miss is its 1500 or so lines of vertical resolution (I was running a tremendous 2000 x 1500 something resolution on it). My LCD is only 1080p vertical, so thing like the using the mail preview panel leaves little room for the quantity of messages above and not space for a full preview. The reason I finally bought an LCD was because the color on that CRT was off and no matter how I adjusted, I couldn't get rid of the very green push. My back-lit LCD is bright and the text is sharp - the only drawback may be that motion in videos is not as smooth as CRT. I can easily see getting a 4k LCD display for my computer in the future so I can have twice as many lines of horizontal resolution.
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