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Panasonic TC-65PS64 and TC-50PS64 ~OWNER'S POLL~ - Page 19

Poll Results: Are you glad overall that you bought the PanasonicTC-xxPS64?

Poll expired: Jun 22, 2013  
  • 88% (22)
    Yes, totally glad.
  • 0% (0)
    No, I regret it.
  • 12% (3)
    I'm ambivalent. Serious doubts.
25 Total Votes  
post #541 of 758

Just got my p65s64 yesterday.  running slides and full screen content until about 100 hours.  Ill be using Calman 5 and Spectra Cal 3 after that.  I'll be posting my findings then!  Hopefully I come up with some good work that'll help someone out.  I understand some members here have panels that are pushing red using other recomended settings.  I don't see it to my eye using the stock Cinema settings with a quick setup using AVS 709.  We'll see what I find.

post #542 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammyrocker5150 View Post

Just got my p65s64 yesterday.  running slides and full screen content until about 100 hours.  Ill be using Calman 5 and Spectra Cal 3 after that.  I'll be posting my findings then!  Hopefully I come up with some good work that'll help someone out.  I understand some members here have panels that are pushing red using other recomended settings.  I don't see it to my eye using the stock Cinema settings with a quick setup using AVS 709.  We'll see what I find.

Sammy,

Where did you pick up the 65-inch? I've been trying to find it at my local Sams and Costco, but they only seem to carry the 50-inch model.

Any one else able to find the 65-inch these days?

Thanks,

Aisu
post #543 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by aisu View Post


Sammy,

Where did you pick up the 65-inch? I've been trying to find it at my local Sams and Costco, but they only seem to carry the 50-inch model.

Any one else able to find the 65-inch these days?

Thanks,

Aisu

 

A seller the TVShack on ebay.  He has less than 10 I believe in stock.  He took 1250 for it.  Its new in box from Samsclub.  Free freight shipping and the box was mint when i recieved it.  I was super skeptical, but he was very communicative, and I'd do it again.

post #544 of 758
What's the deal with the warranty on them? Couldn't find any info.. I take it with them the Panasonic warranty is over?
post #545 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by aisu View Post

Where did you pick up the 65-inch? I've been trying to find it at my local Sams and Costco, but they only seem to carry the 50-inch model.

Any one else able to find the 65-inch these days?

Where are you located? I didn't think Sam's ever carried the 50 inch. I've only ever seen the 65 inch at 3 area Sam's. They have 2 plus the display model at my local store today for $1271.79. Two other area stores had 3 or 4 sets each a month or so ago.
post #546 of 758
Mountain Michael:

I think you might have made an incorrect menu choice. I am streaming Netflix directly and have no back bars what-so-ever. Same thing with Amazon. What an amazing picture!

I have a Roku X2 which I used all the time with my prior TV, but dont use it anymore since streaming directly to the 50S64 loads faster and so far does not stop to buffer from time to time like my Roku sometimes did.
post #547 of 758
Warranty on mine: 2 years from Panny, for 59 bucks Costco made it 5 years :-)
post #548 of 758

Just picked up a TC50PS64.  Looks great but I'm using it sparingly as I'm spending the time I'm not using it doing the aging slides.

 

Will be trying out the suggestions in this thread as I go along.

 

 

A quick question (I hope).  Can this TV do 48Hz natively for 24fps material?  I'm assuming it can't do 96Hz or 120Hz.

post #549 of 758
it can do 48He but it had too much flicker for me.
post #550 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammyrocker5150 View Post

it can do 48He but it had too much flicker for me.

Ah, I'll have to try it out and see if I can take it then.  I used to be sensitive to 60Hz CRT's but I wonder if my eyes have aged enough to no longer be sensitive.

post #551 of 758
hey, appreciate the in put i am not having problems with black bars, i am not receiving a good signal on any of my app channels. I still have my blu ray hooked up, and channels come in fine. Panny said it's my signal, but i am getting great reception. with my dvd and or roku, which leads me anything left but the tv apps. Don't get me wrong , i have a great picture, and leaving my blu ray hooked no big deal . Got this 50" for 500.00 with a 5 year warranty from cosco. Just can't figure why my reception barely reaches 480p.
post #552 of 758

Hello everyone, I should preface this post by saying that I am completely new to avsforum as well as any kind of AV appreciation in general. I've never had a TV larger than ~20 inches in my house and until a year or so ago "my TV" has been a massive Zenith CRT that was older than I was. So, take my observations and lack of knowledge as such.

First off, I want to thank this thread for helping me not only stumble on the holy grail sweet spot of the S64, and encouraging me to impulse buy it at 1:30 AM without talking to my roomate about it (I'm paying for it, so screw him =P ). I was enjoying everything I read about the S60, but was concerned about glare (large living room window facing South perpendicular to the screens location). The ST60 was appealing, but the input lag was a bit of a deal breaker. All the higher end models were destroying any semblance of a budget I might've had. Some desperate google searches and CNet prowling led me to this site, and the S64.

Thank you.

I purchased my 65" S64 from TheTVShack as well, and please allow me to say; the guy is legit. I spoke to the owner on the phone and he was extremely courteous and informative, and he took 15 minutes out of his day to "shoot the sh*t" with me and make sure all my concerns and questions were addressed. He handles overstock for Sams Club and is probably one of the last, best places to get the 65" S64 at this point. I was actually in a bit of a fevered panic that night until i was able to find that seller. The shipping was free and insured and arrived 3 days earlier than promised and came in a pristine box from Sams Club.

The out of box experience was mixed. The set is very imposing and attractive out of the box, especially for a little weak guy like me. I've never owned anything near a 65" set, and it positively dominates the room. (In a good way).

That said, upon hooking it up I DID run into some issues. First, the built-in wireless internet refused to connect to my wireless network. It was slow, mildly unresponsive, and despite entering my information manually, refused to find either my, or even my neighbor's networks. Needless to say, it was a rather embarassing stumble, particularly in front of my expextant friend. I power-cycled my router and modem and still nothing. Later I updated the firmware on my router, and it since has located my network. That said, it is also now picking up 2 of my neighbor's networks concurrently. Perhaps the TV simply needed to be power cycled.

The other stumbling block was the picture quality under lighting. The room is poorly lit but at the moment the large (74") living room window does not have curtains as it is a work in progress. The PQ upon plugging it in under these cirumstances (minimal room lighting but moderate lighting from curtain-less large window on a rainy, overcast day) really washed out the picture. The biggest issue was brightness, the picture simply looked dull and lifeless, lacking in color. The only setting that looked "good" to me was Vivid, which I knew was like staring at a searchlight. My friend however said the picture looked great and I had to admit it was better than anything I've owned, and still felt good about the purchase.

As the sun went down and the room became dark, the PQ got better by the minute. By dusk I was much more impressed and was really enjoying the content, even though it was an older movie and I could tell it wasn't really giving the TV a chance to show off. My roomate came home at this point and was very impressed and pleased with the picture quality and the set in general. We invited another friend over and watched Game 6 of the World Series. The picture was vivid and crisp and it felt like we were at the park. Despite the Cardinals being humiliatingly stomped, the game was particularly enjoyable for me- and I dont like sports. My roomate who loves sports however said that the set portrayed the fluid motion of the game flawlessly. The bright white on the uniforms of both teams did not seem to cause any trouble.

Today I finally got the wireless working as mentioned earlier. Netflix has been good, except the "display" button does not seem willing to change the display ratio while in Netflix, I was unable to enjoy Netflix as much as I would've liked. A couple things I figured I'd watch while I sit through the break-in (such as American Dad), were using the big black bars, and I did not want to watch content with the BBBs any more than necessary.

Having said that, I will guiltly admit to watching the new Hobbit movie, twice. The PQ was everything I could've asked for and more. The color was rich and vivid and any other adjective I can't think of that I haven't already beaten into the ground. Certain scenes were absolutely breaktaing, and really sucked you into the action. In the words of my roomate, "you forget you're in our living room". The scene with the dragon in the room filled with gold treasure was particularly impressive... each gold coin and trinket sparkled and shimmered in its own way. I watched half of Prometheus last night as well, and while the set couldn't do anything for the plot, the images were also 110% perfect- the "star map" scenes were unlike anything I've ever seen.

Today I saw "War of the Worlds" was on, and despite not being a Tom Cruise fan, the synopsis promised "great special effects", etc. I figure hey, why not, and turn it on. I was very disappointed. There was one scene in particular, where Tom Cruise is speaking to his ex-wife and her husband as he takes custody of his children, and something about the bright lighting (possibly reflecting?) off the pavement had the most unpleasant effect on the PQ.... as it shimmered behind them, Tom Cruise & company looked like they were in a hazily-rememebred flashback, or angels descended from heaven, or the POV had taken LSD... or possibly the LSD induced hazily-remembered flashback of angels descending from heaven. Whatever it was, it was troubling and the lightning never seemed to really improve for the rest of the movie. I finally turned it off a couple minutes into the first "attack" scene, unimpressed with the visuals.

I will say I did read some good advice stated earlier in regards to the original content- i.e., dont get upset because your set can't take footage that was poorly made and make it look beautiful. Lipstick on a pig and all that. So far I have generally been able to assuage any concerns with PQ by making reasoned judgements on the quality of the original footage based on its date of manufacture, production quality, and budgeting.

I will say as a totally rookie videophile, I hadn't heard of, much less appreciated the concept of "deep blacks". It struck me as pretentious and nonsensical, but I am happy to admit how wrong I was. The blacks on this set are, as CNet put it "inky". While watching Stephen Colbert, he and his guest sat at the usual table (one I have seen hundreds of times), and between both of their fetching jet black pants and the table, it was like looking into the Abyss. I have never seen such an unforgiving, unyielding shade of black, one that swallows all light. It was like peering into the warp drive on the Event Horizon. (also on my to-do list).;) I also watched Deep Impact an hour ago, and despite having low expectations due to the movies "age" (hey, I was 8 when it came out, now I have a mortgage), the film was as impressive as Prometheus and The Hobbit. The scene where Morgan Freeman and his secret service entourage first meet the journalist again really showed off the impressive level of black the set was capable of. They were truly impressive.

I am still trying to get through the break-in period as best I can. I have probably 20-30 hours on it now and am very pleased with my purchase. Some out of the box hiccups that I'm sure were partially my fault, but all in all a  smart purchase if I may say so myself. I played with the settings some, and currently have the usual susepcts (CATs, power save) disabled, contrast set to 83, and Warm2 for the colors. I've been watching it on Standard... I've tried Cinema and (while positvely awful under the original lighting) I could see why it would be a better picture, but it just seemed too "dark" to me, and with less "life" to it... Maybe I'm just too used to seeing LED/LCDs everywhere but I really felt like I was watching my laptop screen with the battery mode enabled.

I'd imagine Cinema might be better with more fine-tweaking ala Fairchild/D-Nice/CNet, but the "Pro Settings" button has been grayed out everytime I've tried it, in addition to several other random selections. Can my set smell an amateur idiot across the room, or am I missing something?

All in all, a purchase I can be proud of, and despite my nervous jitters, have been enjoying immensely... so much so I have pretty much done literally nothing but watch it since I got it. To anyone still reading, thank you. I hope my rambling has given any other newbies like myself a little courage and an idea of what you will get with this fantastic set.

post #553 of 758
Thread Starter 
Demethostes,

First off, welcome to AVS and to this thread. Thank you for posting your detailed review. I for one appreciated your comments and clicked the thumbs up button. fwiw, your observations strike me as balanced and totally valid. If you get the chance, I hope you'll update your opinions as they develop after you get to know the set for awhile.

I believe I understand your pain regarding a large window behind the viewer's seated position. Way back, I stated that both my previous ST60 and S64 were situated just wrong with one small window behind and just to the left of me. It was a real pest - glare right in the MIDDLE of the screen was equally bad for both TV's. Had it been a large window, it would have really washed things out. Being a small window, I blacked that one totally out ~ probably over-reacting.

Now with the one pest window blacked out, I can have various curtains open around my living room with sunshine pouring in and my S64 still looks plenty bright - a lot brighter than my CRT ever looked but probably not as bright as an LCD/LED. I use one of fairchild99's brighter Custom picture mode settings on bright days. But that one window at just the wrong angle wasn't going to pass muster for me. Had it been a large window, some have suggested partial attenuation of the window. One that sounds most likely for success would be a "solar screen" on the outside of the window. Window companies make these up in custom sizes and at least a dozen levels of darkness. I had them when I lived in a very hot environment and they cut my AC bill a lot. But in this case, it would be for another reason... if window companies can do them in cold environs. However, if you are a renter, some other internal window treatment might be cheaper and more portable. Just some thoughts on how to maybe improve your daytime viewing if you do a lot of that as I do.

I believe that an anti-reflective filter is a tough balance or compromise for manufacturer's to figure. How much glare attenuation can be done before damaging overall PQ? HDTimeShifter and others have said that they believe the polarized glare attenuation is set mostly to help with glare from overhead lighting. I believe that to be true. Furthermore, it's not a mirror like an S60 but it is still very shiny.

My brother had pest glare from one lamp behind him. He has 3 easy chairs along that wall, so before moving the lamp, he tried a different chair as his primary location and the glare was gone. I'm all for easy solutions but a big window probably isn't going to give up that easily. I expect you've already tried different angles of the TV screen?

I also have problems with black bars and "Format" (zoom) being disabled on the S64 when streaming Netflix directly from an ethernet cable. I didn't know it would do that on wireless, too. Saylormd said that I'd probably botched a setting causing that. I'm not sure if he meant a setting in Netflix or on the S64. To all: Any added info on on what setting to change would be appreciated. I don't know.

It's my observation that some shows in Netflix streamed direct have full screen but better than half have "letterbox" style black bars above and below. A few have them right and left. More are beginning to show up with a "nearly" full screen. that is, slender almost imperceptible black bars above and below. (when using a streaming device that lets "Format" go active, I sometimes use "Just" zoom for those shows though that tends to stretch foreheads and such.)

I use a PS3 as my streaming device and with that, I have full control of "Format" or zoom. My Dad and Brother have 50PS64s. My brother's zoom IS enabled when watching TV through his cable box. Whereas, my Dad's TV when streaming Netflix direct from the ethernet cable has "Format" (zoom) totally disabled.

For my Dad, I did some research and settled on a Roku 2 (not the XS or XD; various reasons) and that solved 2 problems for my Dad. He has a pre HDMI pre optical audio home stereo. A sound converter was dangerously off for preamp level, so we abandoned the converter. The Roku 2 easily sends video to the TV by HDMI while ALSO concurrently outputting audio via the RCA analog preamp output connections. Lot of controversy on whether that was true or not; I got the straight scoop from the Roku forum & confirmed with Roku tech. Because the S64 has low input lag, the lip sync error is tolerable. I believe lip sync would be unacceptable on my previous ST60.

The second problem it solved for my Dad is that it restored full function to the "Format" (zoom) control on the S64. It is working very well so far but it has only been a few days since I installed it for him. I've given him a list of the 3 main things to watch for as quite a few Roku's are reported to have "infant mortality" and I'd like to swap a couple if necessary to get a good one before the Amazon easy swap period of 30 days is up. The Roku adds some functions and free channels my Dad likes, too. I think he may cut the cord on cable TV due to the Roku and the extras it provides. So far, it is a clear win for him. I hope it doesn't turn into a pest for him.

The Roku wasn't my idea. bigpoppa206 first put me onto the track of Roku, so: My thanks going out to him. smile.gif

It's a great solution for 2 or more challenges my Dad was having with his S64 and antique stereo. So far, a very responsive and super likable device! It's so small, I initially had doubts. But wow, what functionality!

Well anyway, welcome once again. I value your input.

Michael S.
Edited by MountainMichael - 11/2/13 at 3:06pm
post #554 of 758
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heebeeveel View Post

hey, appreciate the in put i am not having problems with black bars, i am not receiving a good signal on any of my app channels. I still have my blu ray hooked up, and channels come in fine. Panny said it's my signal, but i am getting great reception. with my dvd and or roku, which leads me anything left but the tv apps. Don't get me wrong , i have a great picture, and leaving my blu ray hooked no big deal . Got this 50" for 500.00 with a 5 year warranty from cosco. Just can't figure why my reception barely reaches 480p.

heebeeveel,

My Dad and Brother have very fast cable internet and their S64's seemed less stubborn about hanging around at 480. That is, their S64's "upshifted" or whatever cool.gif faster. Whereas, I'm on DSL that holds fairly well at 7mbps. That should be enough I thought... but my S64 when streaming direct to its ethernet port tends to lolligag around 480 and tends to waffle back from 1080 often. OTOH, when streaming thru my PS3, it "upshifts" to 1080p and astounding resolution very fast and no waffling about it. I wonder if my modem/router has higher QOS settings for the PS3 or something?

I'm not sure why the PS3 should act so much faster... Anyway, when my very old PS3 "fat" eventually tanks, I'll probably go to a Roku since one is working so well for my Dad. Unless his becomes a pest, etc..

Appears to me quite a few people agree a good blu ray player streams better than the S64 direct. It varies enough, I wonder about some other variables.

fwiw

mm
Edited by MountainMichael - 11/4/13 at 1:01pm
post #555 of 758

Hi MM,

 

Thanks for all your great info that you share.  I noticed you mentioned that you used to have a ST60.  What made you switch to a S64??  The reason why I ask is because I am debating in getting a 60" ST60 or a 65" S64 and I'm trying to figure out if having the extra 5" of the S64 will outweigh having the better picture quality of the 60" ST60 or vice-versa.  (I am creating a new living room and I estimate that I will probably be sitting somewhere between 10 - 12 feet away from the screen.)  Thanks!

post #556 of 758
Thread Starter 
mraya77,

YW. In a nutshell, I think you'll come out a winner either way. More details:

I had a 55ST60 that I liked a LOT. I'm a sometimes video gamer so the input lag was a bit off-putting... menu lag was a bit perplexing causing some miscues at times... but it was such an excellent panel, I'd have gladly kept it except it developed an intermittent electronic fault where the power LED would come on but the screen didn't come on. The box looked like it had been dropped and the shipper said he was surprised the glass wasn't outright shattered. So I think being dropped is probably why it started acting up. IMHO, it is NOT an indication of anything wrong with the ST60 design.

In AVS, the pros say it all the time: Screen size is the number 1 regret people have in buying TV's. So part of the reason I bought the TC-65PS64 was the increase in size and I admit it; I really like the added real estate. As for picture quality, ST60 fans insist there is a visible difference and I don't doubt it. However, I believe that for a non-pro like me, I would probably have to see both sitting side by side with comparably good settings and the same content before I could tell a difference. I personally haven't noticed any degradation in PQ. However, I am not a videophile.

Having said that, I believe the following of my particular sets:

1.) D-Nice's shared settings worked "ok" on my particular ST60.

2.) fairchild99's settings are spectacular on my particular S64.

Both of the above can vary depending on the specific set. It happens all the time. My point is: The above is also probably skewing my impression. Had I hired a pro calibration on my specific ST60, I have to wonder if then I'd think differently of the PQ comparison.

I personally believe that either a 60 inch or a 65 inch will work well at 10 to 12 feet viewing distance. However, if you have particularly excellent vision like 20/15 both eyes, you may or may not see some slightly increased graininess with the 65". My eyes are 20/20 and 20/25 and I start seeing graininess at about 8 feet. So even as close as 9 to 10 feet for me is fine.

Another point: From my perspective, the larger the screen I have, the more filming motion errors can be a pest. Likewise plasma trailing when new was more noticeable IMHO with the 65 than with my 55. I've read and seen that plasma trailing reduces quite a bit in the first 300 to 400 hours and I'm very happy with motion now... except when filming is really bad. Like the cameraman thinks it's "dramatic" to flail the camera about like a fire hose. Or if the content is a poor low budget streaming conversion or DVD conversion. I've never owned a 60" and suspect the two sizes would be pretty close for motion.

If you are not a video gamer or maybe a low usage video gamer and if you think you might want 3D sometimes and are willing to pay the premium for the ST60, I remain convinced it is also a dynamite panel.

Will a big screen "dominate" a room? I doubt there would be much difference in this aspect between a 60 and 65... however: While only a half inch thinner, to my eye, the ST60 has a more visually appealing form factor when viewed from the side or the back. This is a minor thing to me; but please be aware the ST60 does look more sleek. Although the sizes are similar, since room "dominance" seems highly subjective, I think the sleeker ST60 might be better for this. Does my S64 dominate my living room? Yup, but no way am I going back to something smaller. I bought an aquarium blu ray for parties and such so the TV isn't sitting there looking like some lifeless, dark/imposing/monolithic slab.

Finally, on the basis of what I've read, expansion and contraction noises known as "popping" or "ticking" are probably less likely in the ST60 lineup. This could be because of the different back panel design, I don't know.

To recap, I believe the ST60 is an excellent TV with the caveat about input lag. I believe the S64 is the bang-for-the-buck champ - mainly, it doesn't have 3D. Observed PQ of both is so good, most people probably won't believe it. My S64 still wows me to this day and I have zero regrets. Love the added size! My Dad and Brother just purchased TC-50PS64's a few weeks ago. Both are amazed at the PQ. "Astounding" was the word my brother used. My Dad has a Sammy LCD/LED right next to his S64 at present and the Sammy's PQ looks awful in comparison. It's a couple years old and a cheaper Sammy, so it probably isn't a fair comparison.

Opinions vary; the above is how I see it.

I hope the above info is of use to you. Feel free to ask any other questions you might have. If I don't have an answer, other thread contributors may be able to help.

Likewise, I hope you'll drop in to let us know what you go with and how you like it.

Best of luck with whatever you choose,

mm
Edited by MountainMichael - 11/4/13 at 12:58pm
post #557 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

mraya77,

YW. In a nutshell, I think you'll come out a winner either way. More details:

I had a 55ST60 that I liked a LOT. I'm a sometimes video gamer so the input lag was a bit off-putting but it was such an excellent panel, I'd have gladly kept it except it developed an intermittent electronic fault where the power LED would come on but the screen didn't come on. The box looked like it had been dropped and the shipper said he was surprised the glass wasn't outright shattered. So I think being dropped is probably why it started acting up.

In AVS, the pros say it all the time: Screen size is the number 1 regret people have in buying TV's. So part of the reason I bought the TC-65PS64 was the increase in size and I admit it; I really like the added real estate. As for picture quality, ST60 fans insist there is a visible difference and I don't doubt it. However, I believe that for a non-pro like me, I would probably have to see both sitting side by side with comparably good settings and the same content before I could tell a difference. I personally haven't noticed any degradation in PQ. However, I am not a videophile.

Having said that, I believe the following of my particular sets:

1.) D-Nice's shared settings worked "ok" on my particular ST60.

2.) fairchild99's settings are spectacular on my particular S64.

Both of the above can vary depending on the specific set. It happens all the time. My point is: The above is also probably skewing my impression. Had I hired a pro calibration on my specific ST60, I have to wonder if then I'd think differently of the PQ comparison.

I personally believe that either a 60 inch or a 65 inch will work well at 10 to 12 feet viewing distance. However, if you have particularly excellent vision like 20/15 both eyes, you may or may not see some slightly increased graininess with the 65". My eyes are 20/20 and 20/25 and I start seeing graininess at about 8 feet. So 9 to 10 feet for me is fine.

Another point: From my perspective, the larger the screen I have, the more filming motion errors can be a pest. Likewise plasma trailing when new was more noticeable IMHO with the 65 than with my 55. I've read and seen that plasma trailing reduces quite a bit in the first 300 to 400 hours and I'm very happy with motion now... except when filming is really bad. Like the cameraman thinks it's "dramatic" to flail the camera about like a fire hose. I've never owned a 60" and suspect the two sizes would be pretty close for motion.

If you are not a video gamer or maybe a low usage video gamer and if you think you might want 3D sometimes and are willing to pay the premium for the ST60, I remain convinced it is also a dynamite panel. Also, this may be a bit vain, but while only a half inch thinner, to my eye, the ST60 has a more visually appealing form factor when viewed from the side or the back. This is a minor thing to me; but please be aware the ST60 does look more sleek.

Finally, on the basis of what I've read, expansion and contraction noises known as "popping" or "ticking" are probably less likely in the ST60 lineup. This could be because of the different back panel design, I don't know.

To recap, I believe the ST60 is an excellent TV with the caveat about input lag. I believe the S64 is the bang-for-the-buck champ - mainly, it doesn't have 3D. Observed PQ of both is so good, most people probably won't believe it. My S64 still wows me to this day and I have zero regrets. Love the added size! Opinions vary; that's just how I see it.

I hope the above info is of use to you. Feel free to ask any other questions you might have. If I don't have an answer, other thread contributors may be able to help.

Likewise, I hope you'll drop in to let us know what you go with and how you like it.

Best of luck,

mm


Thanks very much, MM.

 

No, I don't play video games so that is an issue that I am not really concerned about. 

 

Don't care too much about 3D either (although it would be a nice little bonus to play with once in a while), plus CNET was saying that the ST60's 3D performance is not very good anyway.

 

I admit that I am intrigued by the ST60's web browser function but CNET said that it does not perform well.

 

Yes, I believe I have excellent vision and a good eye for details, but, I have no idea if I am 20/20, 20/15, etc.

 

The issue of graininess does concern me.  I don''t like graininess.  But, because I will be sitting 10 - 12 feet away, perhaps I won't notice it, based on what you are saying.

 

I recently taped off the screen dimensions of the 60" and the 65" and I must admit that I am a little surprised & dissapointed to find that the difference in size was not as much as I thought it would be.  Of course, judging it from looking at a taped outline might be somewhat deceiving.  But this has made my decision even harder to make.

 

I noticed on the Panny specs that the ST60 has about double the amount of shades of gradation as the S64.  But, in everyday reality, does that really mean that the ST60 will show gradation twice as good as the S64 will show it, in your opinion?  I have a 55" ST50 and the specs on that one shows the same amount of shades of gradation as the ST60 and the banding with my ST50 is quite noticeable and so I am wondering how much "worse" the S64 would be in that respect.  I hope not too much worse to the eye of the viewer.  What is your experience with the ST60 versus the S64 in that respect?

 

Yes, motion blur is a concern for me.  I know technically the ST60 handles motion blur better that the S64.  But, in everyday reality, based on what you are saying, it sounds like motion blur, after a break-in period, is handled well by the S64.  Would you say that, from your vision and at this point in time, that your S64 handles motion blur just as well as your ST60 did?  Although perhaps that is not a fair question since your ST60 was smaller than your S64.

 

Thanks again!


Edited by mraya77 - 11/4/13 at 1:06pm
post #558 of 758
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mraya77 View Post


Thanks very much, MM.

No, I don't play video games so that is an issue that I am not really concerned about. 

Don't care too much about 3D either (although it would be a nice little bonus to play with once in a while), plus CNET was saying that the ST60's 3D performance is not very good anyway.

I admit that I am intrigued by the ST60's web browser function but CNET said that it does not perform well.

Yes, I believe I have excellent vision and a good eye for details, but, I have no idea if I am 20/20, 20/15, etc.

The issue of graininess does concern me.  I don''t like graininess.  But, because I will be sitting 10 - 12 feet away, perhaps I won't notice it, based on what you are saying.

I recently taped off the screen dimensions of the 60" and the 65" and I must admit that I am a little surprised & dissapointed to find that the difference in size was not as much as I thought it would be.  Of course, judging it from looking at a taped outline might be somewhat deceiving.  But this has made my decision even harder to make.

I noticed on the Panny specs that the ST60 has about double the amount of shades of gradation as the S64.  But, in everyday reality, does that really mean that the ST60 will show gradation twice as good as the S64 will show it, in your opinion?  I have a 55" ST50 and the specs on that one shows the same amount of shades of gradation as the ST60 and the banding with my ST50 is quite noticeable and so I am wondering how much "worse" the S64 would be in that respect.  I hope not too much worse to the eye of the viewer.  What is your experience with the ST60 versus the S64 in that respect?

Yes, motion blur is a concern for me.  I know technically the ST60 handles motion blur better that the S64.  But, in everyday reality, based on what you are saying, it sounds like motion blur, after a break-in period, is handled well by the S64.  Would you say that, from your vision and at this point in time, that your S64 handles motion blur just as well as your ST60 did?  Although perhaps that is not a fair question since your ST60 was smaller than your S64.

Thanks again!

mraya77,

You're welcome, of course.

The additional shades are part of what make me think that a pro-calibrated ST60 might be noticeably better than the S64. I doubt it would be twice as good, but it might be more noticeable IMHO. I didn't see any PQ degradation going to my larger S64 - in fact, I liked the S64's picture better. But again, not being an expert, size and shared settings working better on my S64 than on my ST60 are factors that are probably influencing me.

I saw a difference in how noticeable filming motion errors were between the two. I saw it this way. Going from my 36" old time CRT to the 55ST60 showed motion errors much worse. I attributed it to the significant increase in size. Going from the 55ST60 to the 65PS64 made it somewhat worse once again. I also attributed the latter to the increase in size, however, I could be mistaken and it is possible the ST60 handles motion better. I've not read of anyone doing a real time side by side comparison of a 65 inch in both ST60 and S64 so I don't know what conclusion might be reached in a direct comparison.

While at movie theaters, I sometimes have to close my eyes when the camera person really flails the camera about to avoid nausea. Though not as often or as severe, I sometimes had to do that with both the 55ST60 and with the 65PS64 - so maybe I'm a bit prone to "sea sickness". wink.gif

I do believe some of it at first IS caused by plasma trailing. I also believe that any motion errors (caused by content or TV) will be more noticeable the larger the screen is. From what I've read, plasma trailing is common on most any plasma TV make and model and it reduces quite a bit in the first few hundred hours of usage. I saw it reduce quite a bit on both models though I only had the ST60 for about 220 hours usage. I think some of it is: I've also gotten used to the much larger screen. Still, on very poorly converted content (some of the not so good streamed content and some cheaply budgeted DVD's), I see some pronounced roughness. I attribute that to content since I don't usually see it.

I forget the terms now, but the ST60 has some motion smoothing available. Most people in AVS don't seem to like it much due to so-called SOE (soap opera effect) though I found it helped a little bit with some of the badly done content. Is that effect or 3D worth the extra price? It wasn't for me, but that's going to vary by person I expect. Part of the reason I wasn't terribly interested in 3D is just as you said; most don't believe it was particularly well done on the ST60.

I didn't like 120hz on the ST60 but from my reading, that is not a common complaint. It's hard for me to describe. Flicker but not really flicker. It's certainly not pronounced flicker like with the S64 in 48hz mode.

I've not seen anything I could call banding with my S64 but I guess I'm not sure what that is. I rarely see line bleed and only during extreme contrasts. I've noticed it 3 times in 5 months. I see posterization somewhat more often than line bleed but still only occasionally. Others disagree on line bleed and believe the S60/64's have a lot of line bleed. Maybe a weak power board would make this worse on some specific TV's? I don't know.

Regarding shades of gradation or any of this, I'm hoping fairchild99 is still monitoring this thread since I think his input regarding that would be of value and probably more on point than what I've posted.

And as always, input welcomed from any of our thread participants!

One other thought: If you're leaning towards the 60ST60 and since you're not a video gamer, I think it is a superb TV. I'd still have my 55ST60 if it hadn't developed a fault.

I doubt you would be disappointed with either. There have been a couple of people who were disappointed with motion on the 65PS64's. But then, I've seen similar complaints (also rare) on the bigger ST60's. I think some of it is poor content, some is plasma trailing especially at first, some is from huge increases in screen size from previous TV to new TV, etc.

mm
Edited by MountainMichael - 11/4/13 at 5:50pm
post #559 of 758

Thanks MM.

 

In respect to price - i can get either the 60" ST60 or the 65" S64 for the same price.  That said:

 

Yeah I hear you regarding the Motion Smoother feature but I too hate the Soap Opera Effect.  However, on my 55" ST50, if I have the Motion Smoother on a "Weak" setting, it does not bother me.  But I won't go any higher than "Weak" because the Soap Opera effect kicks in for sure..

 

Shades of Gradation is like how smoothly colors blend into each other.  Here is a quote I found online:  "Plasma displays can suffer from an artifact called false contouring, where transitions between different shades of the same color are too sharp. These transitions can appear as distinct lines between the different shades of color. Having more shades of gradation helps minimize the false contouring artifact so color transitions take on a smooth, natural appearance."

 

Here is another quote I found: "The major difference comes from the Shades of Gradation — the ST50 includes about 12,000 shades of gradation, while the GT50 and VT50 offer more than 24,000 shades of gradation. Think of shades of gradation as the number of different shades you get between black and white. The bigger the number, the smoother the image will be."

 

Example photos of Shades of Gradation:

 

http://www.avrev.com/images/stories/equiphdtv/sony/gradation.jpg

 

http://i55.tinypic.com/nzrvpy.jpg 

 

http://images.pcworld.com/images/article/2011/10/color_banding_1-5227384.jpg

 

I called it "banding" but I believe I was wrong in my using the term "banding" and, I apologize for that.  I love my ST50 but my only complaint is the gradation issue.  It can be VERY noticeable and, based on the specs (which shows both the ST50 & ST60 having double the amount of gradation shades than the S60/S64), the S60/S64 is worse than the ST50/ST60 for gradation but what I don't know is how visible the difference truly is in real life.  If you or anyone can share anything about this, please do.

 

Going back to Motion Blur for a second, here is a photo I found where Panasonic brags about their "2,500 Focused Field (Panel) Drive" - something that the ST60 has and the S60/S64 does not:  http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/electronics/Cat500/Panasonic/2012/hires/focused_field_drive._V137674998_.jpg   They claim this feature makes for faster-switching phospors.  But, this actually might just be a fancy way of advertising the Motion Smoother feature which creates the Soap Opera effect that most of us hate.  Please correct me if I am wrong but the S60/S64 does not offer a Motion Smoother feature.  Consequently, this makes me believe even more that the "2,500 FFD" is just a fancy way of saying "Motion Smoother" which gives us our dear SOE.  If you or anyone reading this knows the answer to this, please share.

 

Thanks!!!


Edited by mraya77 - 11/4/13 at 6:30pm
post #560 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

mraya77,

You're welcome, of course.

The additional shades are part of what make me think that a pro-calibrated ST60 might be noticeably better than the S64. I doubt it would be twice as good, but it might be more noticeable IMHO. I didn't see any PQ degradation going to my larger S64 - in fact, I liked the S64's picture better. But again, not being an expert, size and shared settings working better on my S64 than on my ST60 are factors that are probably influencing me.

I saw a difference in how noticeable filming motion errors were between the two. I saw it this way. Going from my 36" old time CRT to the 55ST60 showed motion errors much worse. I attributed it to the significant increase in size. Going from the 55ST60 to the 65PS64 made it somewhat worse once again. I also attributed the latter to the increase in size, however, I could be mistaken and it is possible the ST60 handles motion better. I've not read of anyone doing a real time side by side comparison of a 65 inch in both ST60 and S64 so I don't know what conclusion might be reached in a direct comparison.

While at movie theaters, I sometimes have to close my eyes when the camera person really flails the camera about to avoid nausea. Though not as often or as severe, I sometimes had to do that with both the 55ST60 and with the 65PS64 - so maybe I'm a bit prone to "sea sickness". wink.gif

I do believe some of it at first IS caused by plasma trailing. I also believe that any motion errors (caused by content or TV) will be more noticeable the larger the screen is. From what I've read, plasma trailing is common on most any plasma TV make and model and it reduces quite a bit in the first few hundred hours of usage. I saw it reduce quite a bit on both models though I only had the ST60 for about 220 hours usage. I think some of it is: I've also gotten used to the much larger screen. Still, on very poorly converted content (some of the not so good streamed content and some cheaply budgeted DVD's), I see some pronounced roughness. I attribute that to content since I don't usually see it.

I forget the terms now, but the ST60 has some motion smoothing available. Most people in AVS don't seem to like it much due to so-called SOE (soap opera effect) though I found it helped a little bit with some of the badly done content. Is that effect or 3D worth the extra price? It wasn't for me, but that's going to vary by person I expect. Part of the reason I wasn't terribly interested in 3D is just as you said; most don't believe it was particularly well done on the ST60.

I didn't like 120hz on the ST60 but from my reading, that is not a common complaint. It's hard for me to describe. Flicker but not really flicker. It's certainly not pronounced flicker like with the S64 in 48hz mode.

I've not seen anything I could call banding with my S64 but I guess I'm not sure what that is. I rarely see line bleed and only during extreme contrasts. I've noticed it 3 times in 5 months. I see posterization somewhat more often than line bleed but still only occasionally. Others disagree on line bleed and believe the S60/64's have a lot of line bleed. Maybe a weak power board would make this worse on some specific TV's? I don't know.

Regarding shades of gradation or any of this, I'm hoping fairchild99 is still monitoring this thread since I think his input regarding that would be of value and probably more on point than what I've posted.

And as always, input welcomed from any of our thread participants!

One other thought: If you're leaning towards the 60ST60 and since you're not a video gamer, I think it is a superb TV. I'd still have my 55ST60 if it hadn't developed a fault.

I doubt you would be disappointed with either. There have been a couple of people who were disappointed with motion on the 65PS64's. But then, I've seen similar complaints (also rare) on the bigger ST60's. I think some of it is poor content, some is plasma trailing especially at first, some is from huge increases in screen size from previous TV to new TV, etc.

mm

So, you have both the S64 and ST60? and can you see a difference in smooth transitions of an single color?
post #561 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

The Roku wasn't my idea. bigpoppa206 first put me onto the track of Roku, so: My thanks going out to him. smile.gif

It's a great solution for 2 or more challenges my Dad was having with his S64 and antique stereo. So far, a very responsive and super likable device! It's so small, I initially had doubts. But wow, what functionality!

I have two Roku's, the basic LT 720p model, and also got my mother-in-law one, and they have all been great. I just got a 65S60, which includes wifi with streaming Netflix, Amazon, Youtube, and a few others - limited selection, but all the main video players. However, the streamer built in to the TV is definitely nowhere near as snappy as the Rokus. I'm thinking of getting another one for the new TV, but since it's a 1080p set, I would get a higher model of Roku. Question is, would the higher end 1080p Roku be as fast as the more basic 720p model? Probably the wrong forum - sorry!
Edited by jontyrees - 11/5/13 at 7:56am
post #562 of 758
Thread Starter 
mraya77,

To my knowledge, the S64 does not have "motion smoother". However, the Panny ad does brag about 600 focused field drive on the S60/64's. So I suppose it does less of it than an ST60? Not saying that's good or bad; I wouldn't know.

I've explained why my eyes may have been tricked ~ but with the 2 Panny's I've owned, I like my S64's picture better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

So, you have both the S64 and ST60? and can you see a difference in smooth transitions of an single color?

I had the ST60 for about 220 hours of use before it developed an intermittent fault and had to be returned. I replaced it with my TC-65PS64 and I really like my S64 a lot. I was unable to see any degradation in PQ. However, I was unable to compare the 2 TV's side by side with identical content playing in real time. In my circumstances, I think I would have needed that to see whatever difference might be present.

Color transitions look very smooth on both TV's to me. I was unable to see any difference in this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontyrees View Post

I have two Roku's, the basic LT 720p model, and also got my mother-in-law one, and they have all been great. I just got a 65S60, which includes wifi with streaming Netflix, Amazon, Youtube, and a few others - limited selection, but all the main video players. However, the streamer built in to the TV is definitely nowhere near as snappy as the Rokus. I'm thinking of getting another one for the new TV, but since it's a 1080p set, I would get a higher model of Roku. Question is, would the higher end 1080p Roku be as fast as the more basic 720p model? Probably the wrong forum - sorry!

That confirms some of what I thought I was seeing.

I haven't had any experience with a 720p Roku so I can't really say. However, my Dad's Roku 2 seems very responsive and we've seen no buffering (other than start of movie) with it yet. However, he has a very fast cable connection. I don't think it would work that well on my (7mbps actual) DSL. Wish they had cable where I live... something about not enough paying customers who live on a goat trail.. or the goats are slow payers..?? biggrin.gif
post #563 of 758
The ST60 has the 600hz and the 2500 fdd and motion smoothing settings. I think the 2500 fdd does make for slightly better motion resolution but the difference is not dramatic from other plasmas I have owned. Hardly anyone used the motion smoothing beyond the weak setting because it produces artifacts and SOE.
post #564 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMichael View Post

Regarding shades of gradation or any of this, I'm hoping fairchild99 is still monitoring this thread since I think his input regarding that would be of value and probably more on point than what I've posted.

mm

As has been covered, the increased gradation will help with the smoothness of colors. This can be seen in banding patterns or in animation for instance. The higher gradation the more smooth the images will look. I just ordered a 55VT60 which has 30,720 and i'll note how much of a difference there really is between it and the S60. I know the S60 I could notice it sometimes with certain patterns and content, it could have been the source though. (the ramps.mkv found on the GCD download-able disc is a good pattern which offers different colors)

As for motion resolution, most plasmas offer about 700 lines of motion resolution without any motion smoothers enabled or blur reduction features etc... For instance my 2010 42S2 had 700 lines and 900 lines with blur reduction feature enabled. I don't know how the FFD relates to this, I think you need to have the motion smoother features enabled to get use out of this. Not something I plan to use on a regular basis aside from demoing it. For reference, most LCD/LED that have a 60hz refresh rate offer about 320 lines of motion resolution, while the 120hz/240hz that actually work right offer 600ish, maybe more. But then you have issues like soap opera effect making everything look too smooth.
post #565 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

The ST60 has the 600hz and the 2500 fdd and motion smoothing settings. I think the 2500 fdd does make for slightly better motion resolution but the difference is not dramatic from other plasmas I have owned. Hardly anyone used the motion smoothing beyond the weak setting because it produces artifacts and SOE.

CNET showed 800 lines of motion resolution with the ST60 vs. 700 lines with the S60 (with motion smoother off on the ST60).
post #566 of 758
Gradation on my Samsung-
Low picture level-The brightest whites look quite shiny bright compared to the next shades down.A high contrast ratio that a lot of people like.Dark movies and shows
Medium picture level- looks best too me as it looks the most balanced where brights are not too torch bright and black is not too black.Everything blends together right.
High picture level- where there's a lot of light and white shades on the screen and the screen looks overly washed out.Outdoor shows,commercials

The abl constantly changing the gradation and contrast ratio on the screen.The way the abl works on each model of tv has a say on how the gradation looks I would think.Lowering the contrast limits how much the abl affects the screen.Gamma setting..i think firmware makes a difference too.All sorts of things affect gradation.
Edited by Vic12345 - 11/5/13 at 6:10pm
post #567 of 758
Thread Starter 
fc99,

Thanks for your input. I hope you'll update us on how your VT60 works out.

Congrats!

Micke
post #568 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

CNET showed 800 lines of motion resolution with the ST60 vs. 700 lines with the S60 (with motion smoother off on the ST60).

That would be the 2500 fdd difference I am assuming
post #569 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

That would be the 2500 fdd difference I am assuming

probably
post #570 of 758
I've had my TC-65PS64 for about 2 months now and just noticed that the picture doesn't fill the screen all the way around the borders. There is about of 1/4 inch of black border all the way around even when choosing any filling setting format. Is anyone having this same issue or is their a setting I can change to fill the borders? I'd really hate to have to take this tv back. Any information on this issue I am having would be greatly appreciated.
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