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post #3181 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

Maybe someone can clear this up for me, if Microsoft is trying to usher in the digital era, why not do what every other business model has done, and provide a price incentive to purchase digitally.

Does anyone know for sure what the price for digital version of games is going to be? I don't remember seeing anything confirmed.
post #3182 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrtledog View Post

Does anyone know for sure what the price for digital version of games is going to be? I don't remember seeing anything confirmed.
All thats been confirmed is first party on both systems, $59.99. Now if they were going to offer a better price on digital media, dont you think they would have Major Nelson out there saying this ? Would get rid of alot of headaches for Ms.
post #3183 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdperry View Post

I am wondering if Microsoft had said that all new games releases would be $29.99 per DD would everyone have been ok with the DRM and internet restrictions.
I strongly doubt that printing and distributing discs costs $30 per or even $10 per; can't cost much if any more than printing and distributing a DVD which will retail for $15 or less at release. Profits on digital copies would be pretty unsatisfying.
post #3184 of 14765
Quote:
Hilariously, they don’t feel that pre-orders will determine the console war until both consoles are released.

Hilariously rolleyes.gif?
post #3185 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

Azure has software to track the used games? This needs to be written, debugged, rewritten and then maintained and updated. I have done quite a few software implementations and they are not cheap.
That digital system is no different fundamentally than the licensing system they're currently using for XBLA and GoD titles. It's not like they're having to build it from the ground up. Will it cost money to implement? Of course. Good thing Xbox Live is a pay service, huh?
post #3186 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I strongly doubt that printing and distributing discs costs $30 per or even $10 per; can't cost much if any more than printing and distributing a DVD which will retail for $15 or less at release. Profits on digital copies would be pretty unsatisfying.

Physical media has it’s resell value already priced in. All products that can be resold do. Limiting or stopping an item from being resold devalues it.

Question is to whom those margins go.
post #3187 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I strongly doubt that printing and distributing discs costs $30 per or even $10 per; can't cost much if any more than printing and distributing a DVD which will retail for $15 or less at release. Profits on digital copies would be pretty unsatisfying.

You are forgetting the retail cut of the price. That is the biggest cut.
post #3188 of 14765
Its going to be interesting to see how they deal with the Licensing of Physical disks. I doubt that there will be any keys embedded in the bluray because of cost
I assume they will include a 1 time use key on paper . Kinect is going to come in real handy speaking that 50 digit code... smile.gif
post #3189 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craer View Post

Renting - Did you complain when blockbuster and Hollywood Video went out of business for the digital download rental model of iTunes or xbox live? Hell no, because its a better model. You suddenly don't think that they will implement a way for you to digitally rent games? Of course they will, because renting games makes money, that's why its there.

How much does netflix cost a month? Per movie?

Blockbuster cost much more, and buying cost more than that.

Thats the point. DD should pass on savings to the consumer. there's nothing to suggest that publishers will be driving down pirces once they get their walled garden. EA left steam and the rest of internet purchase options for their own walled garden to keep prices high and not compete.
post #3190 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post

MS isn't poor either so I don't get the concerns. Games as of now are not going up. Xbox live took 10 years to increase in price. The market will decide if these choice hurt them in the long run.

But if you look at the Microsoft gaming and entertainment division last I heard overall they were still in the negative from xbox and xbox 360. They spent $2 billion alone on marketing for xbox original and that was just at the beginning. I'm getting this from two Microsoft books I'm reading. I will try to find links to validate my claims.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2013/01/20/sell-microsoft-now-game-over-ballmer-loses/

I want to see someone argue with Forbes.

And Microsoft makes nothing from its xBox/Kinect entertainment division, while losing vast sums in its online division (negative $350M-$750M/quarter).
post #3191 of 14765
Retail stores make approx. $10 per title on a new sale. Theoretically you could chop that $10 off the price of the digital version and not affect the publisher's bottom line at all.
post #3192 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

Maybe someone can clear this up for me, if Microsoft is trying to usher in the digital era, why not do what every other business model has done, and provide a price incentive to purchase digitally. For example, in most cases I buy music at itunes because its priced cheaper than best buy would be for the physical cd, and its more convenient . I would have to think that when you eliminate the packaging, printing, shipping, and retail space, that this should save the publisher quite a bit of money. For example a digital copy may be $45 where as the physical copy at gamestop is $59.99. This would give the consumer an actual benefit to purchase digitally. Instead they are trying to give no incentive, other than the family plan, which we'll see how that works, and they are taking physical media that you own, and saying that you can only sell this media at this place, or give to one friend once you have jumped thru these hoops. And instead of the stance of not allowing renting games, how about offering digital rentals thru the marketplace. Seems like these 2 steps would eliminate alot of the angst. Consumers dont like to be forced to do anything, there always needs to be an incentive for the consumer for adoption to occur.

Steam games are the same price as retail brand new at 49.99 and 59.99 and some games that were out a year ago haven't changed in price.
post #3193 of 14765
Interesting article from Forbes. It seems that the shutdown of MS servers is more likely than most think. It also reaffirms for me why they want to keep game prices high and create new revenue streams.
Quote:
What can we expect next at Microsoft?

Ballmer appears to have committed to fight to the death in his effort to defend & extend Windows. So expect death as resources are poured into the unwinnable battle to convert users from iOS and Android.
As resources are poured out of the company in the Quixotic effort to prolong Windows/Office, dividends should steadily diminish.
Expect substantial layoffs over the next 3 years. They could even reach 50-60%, or more, of employees.
Expect closure of the long-suffering on-line division in order to conserve resources.
The entertainment division could be spun off, sold to someone like Sony or possibly Barnes & Noble, or dramatically reduced in size. Unable to make a profit it will increasingly be seen as a distraction to the battle for saving Windows, and Microsoft leadership has long shown it doesn’t know how to profitably grow this business unit.
As more and more of the market shifts to competitive cloud infrastructure Apple, Amazon, Samsung and others will grow significantly. Microsoft, losing its user base, will demonstrate its inability to build a new business in the cloud, mimicking its historical failures with Zune (mobile music) and Microsoft mobile phones. Microsoft server and tool sales will suffer, creating a much more difficult profit environment for the sole remaining profitable division.
Quote:
Microsoft makes more than 75% of its profits from Windows and Office. Less than 25% comes from its vaunted servers and tools. And Microsoft makes nothing from its xBox/Kinect entertainment division, while losing vast sums in its on-line division (negative $350M-$750M/quarter). No matter how much anyone likes the non-Windows Microsoft products, without the historical Windows/Office sales and profits, it’s hard to see how long Microsoft can remain sustainable.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2013/01/20/sell-microsoft-now-game-over-ballmer-loses/
post #3194 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknuts07 View Post

All thats been confirmed is first party on both systems, $59.99. Now if they were going to offer a better price on digital media, dont you think they would have Major Nelson out there saying this ? Would get rid of alot of headaches for Ms.

I am not assuming anything. We are only 8 days out from their E3 press conference and there is still 5 months to go until the console is out.
post #3195 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craer View Post

Renting - Did you complain when blockbuster and Hollywood Video went out of business for the digital download rental model of iTunes or xbox live? Hell no, because its a better model. You suddenly don't think that they will implement a way for you to digitally rent games? Of course they will, because renting games makes money, that's why its there.

Selling Games - Selling console games is really the only copyrighted material that still allows this. Do you go around trying to sell your ITunes songs/movies when you have had enough? Of course you don't. How about pc games/android games/iphone games? The point is, that when the market gets to a digital download/license environment, the price of those games drop. Look at steam, or even xbox live with their giving away free games to gold members. Fable 3 is online and free to download on your 360 if you didn't know.

System online - This has baffled me the whole time. You didn't buy a smart phone and then say "well, I don't want this to be always online, I want that feature to always be off". You want that feature to always be on. In fact, we cry and complaine when its not online. Yes, I understand it sucks that you cant take the xbox one to a cabin/camp site in the middle of nowhere to play. But you can take a smart phone and tether it to the xbox one to fix this problem (somewhat)
The notion of digitally "renting" games doesn't work. Game rentals are a holdover from physical media. Think about it this way... If you're renting a game on disc just to try it to see if you want to purchase it, would the absence of that matter if say, you were able to download any game and play it as a trial version for maybe an hour before having to pay for it? This eliminates the rental cost for you altogether, and it's something they currently do on Windows Phone - where all apps but a tiny few have free trials. Then you have the other issue of people who will rent a game on disc and then marathon through it in a day (much in the same way people buy a game then dump it off at GameStop the next day). If you do that digitally, you've essentially lost a $60 sale to a $5 one-day rental, and publishers would never willingly go that route. The reason this works with physical media is because the rental companies buy wholesale lots of the games on disc, which boosts the game's sales numbers in that important first month of sale (but again, this is that loophole of the game being on physical media that we've discussed here).

Now, admittedly, I'm hoping the move toward this kinda' thing will give developers an incentive not to make those crappy single-player experiences you can burn through in 5 hours. Those are basically rental fodder, and anyone paying full price will feel cheated. The key is going to be once we've moved to digital distribution, we're going to have to see publishers (if they're even required to exist anymore) start pricing games based on the value offered. If you're making a 6-hour single player campaign with no multiplayer... maybe be smart and price it at $30 out of the gate (and budget your game accordingly for that expectation so that you still make money). For a game that has a robust campaign and multiplayer, maybe $50 via digital (since you're removing the $10 that is basically marketing, physical media, and the retailer's cut). Or if you do keep it at $60, give incentives to make it a value added proposition. I would actually like to see things like DLC for pre-orders continue on a digital paradigm, with people purchasing it cheaper at a later date not getting those advantages. But then, I think people inherently WANT the developers to get paid for their fine work (when they do it) so that we'll continue to get good games. This also will help weed out the crapfests like Aliens: Colonial Marines... because seriously, if you could've played the first 30 minutes of that game for free, not a single person would have bought it. All of this will cause developers to step up their game and give you something worth buying, and it will remove the things like rental that tend to mitigate their risks on putting out utter garbage.

Other that that, I agree with your other points. Internet box needs internet. It may not work like the previous consoles do, but it's what they're offering (and I like the direction they're taking it). Those who don't can stick with the old way on PS4... until they mimic what Microsoft is doing later, as they have tended to thus far. Either way, we're too far out from launch to even know how it will all shake down without wild imagining (though I suppose that hasn't stopped all the people who apparently think Microsoft is one day going to be out of business and closing down all their servers).
post #3196 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripeer View Post

But if you look at the Microsoft gaming and entertainment division last I heard overall they were still in the negative from xbox and xbox 360. They spent $2 billion alone on marketing for xbox original and that was just at the beginning. I'm getting this from two Microsoft books I'm reading. I will try to find links to validate my claims.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2013/01/20/sell-microsoft-now-game-over-ballmer-loses/

I want to see someone argue with Forbes.

And Microsoft makes nothing from its xBox/Kinect entertainment division, while losing vast sums in its online division (negative $350M-$750M/quarter).

You do realize forbes.com is different than the magazine and allows blog writers? if you wanted to write for them, you could (though I'm sure they must require some kind of credentials on some level). I subscribe to Forbes (actually get the magazine), and I don't recall this article at all.
post #3197 of 14765
People can rent games now and it hasn't ended sales. I just looked and saw I could rent Bioshock Infinite or The Last of Us at the Redbox next to my bus stop for $2 a day.
post #3198 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

Sony is providing choice. You already can be all DD with them.

Yes I realize that. The issue isn't having a DD plan but how you transition an audience that bought into you because of expectation of ownership with their games (physical discs, which is why quite a few are buying a PS4). If they accept the license model that DD has and realize the days of truly owning their games are over then fine but it's an image issue that can't be avoided. MS is proving this first hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samendolaro View Post

What Sony has done is quite different. they are letting the market dictate what happens

When you purchase physical media you do not own the game, but you as the holder are granted certain rights including the right to use that license and transfer that license to another person if you wish. With Digital media you are giving up these rights .

Sony is letting the user decide if you want to purchase the physical media fine, you want the convenience of the DD fine. The publishers can simply stop publishing physical disks and force their users to DD if they like.

If MS had just said there is no disks in the box, just a key to a download there wouldn't be that argument. instead MS wants you to give up your rights even if you purchase the Physical media. This is where the problem lies . That License should be mine do do with as I please.

Sony and Microsoft want the same thing in the end but Sony is allowing it to happen and Microsoft is forcing it.

Sometimes you have to dictate yourself where the market heads. The consumers will follow as long as there's incentive to. Steam is a perfect example. Is the One DD service on par with Steam? Well no but then again we know so little about it and the console hasn't had time to sit in the market so it's hard to gauge how successful it is or what the pricing model is going to look like. The fact though that we're starting to see inklings of Steam doing game lending similar to what the One will have though is a sign it's possible for it to work. How long Steam has considered game lending though is up for question but the timing is interesting at least.
post #3199 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

MS plans on earning additional revenues off this. They are not poor but they are here to make as much profit as possible.

And Sony isn't now after 12 years you need to pay to play online? What company is t out to make as much profit as possible? For years MS has been so wrong because competition lets you play online for free. Why do I have to pay to play. Now Sony sees what they are missing and it is all good now. Yeah Sony is trying make just as much in profit as well. They lost over 10 billion as a company in the last 10 years.
post #3200 of 14765
I wish that the new Kinect was wireless, I game in 2 separate rooms. I don't want to have to go turn the Kinect off, or however you disable it, every time I game in my second room. I'm surprised that more people haven't mentioned a similar issue. I currently own all the systems, which I plan to keep doing. I'm just a little miffed with having the Kinect2 as a permanent fixture in my setup.
post #3201 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post

And Sony isn't now after 12 years you need to pay to play online? What company is t out to make as much profit as possible? For years MS has been so wrong because competition lets you play online for free. Why do I have to pay to play. Now Sony sees what they are missing and it is all good now. Yeah Sony is trying make just as much in profit as well. They lost over 10 billion as a company in the last 10 years.

Are we discussing Sony? That is a bad argument. My point is that MS will want to see revenues from this and others are arguing that this investment is being paid for by Live.

You seem to forget that this is not Sony vs MS, it is about the Xbone.
post #3202 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectronicTonic View Post

I wish that the new Kinect was wireless, I game in 2 separate rooms. I don't want to have to go turn the Kinect off, or however you disable it, every time I game in my second room. I'm surprised that more people haven't mentioned a similar issue. I currently own all the systems, which I plan to keep doing. I'm just a little miffed with having the Kinect2 as a permanent fixture in my setup.

I imagine it's a bandwidth (and thus cost) issue. I could see a point where we get a wireless option but it won't be packed in with the console. For those with projectors though yeah it can be tricky if you have your equipment in another room, etc..
post #3203 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Sorry, I just don't agree with that. The XB1 is more like a Roku box WITH a DVD player that only lets you watch DVDs when it's connected to the internet, all the while charging you $60 to watch the DVD. If you want to play the all digital game, leave off the BR player (just like the Roku doesn't have a DVD drive), and make the content cheaper since I'm just renting it now.

Who said anything about renting the games? That's crazy talk. There isn't a recurring fee...just because you don't have a disc in hand doesn't make it a rental or a lease or anything of the sort. You pay for the game, it's yours, just like the apps on your phone. Spinning DD in a different light is disingenuous.
post #3204 of 14765
I was just listening to a podcast, and they were discussing how publishers could allow you to give your physical disk games to a friend, etc, etc.


I thought it was interesting that they used the word physical. This seems to imply that you aren't going to be able to give your digital download games to friends. What's interesting to me about this, is that MS appears to want to have their cake and eat it too, with this policy. On the one hand, they are trying to tell me that physical disks are just a means to an end. We still have to install the game to the harddrive before we play. So, the disks are essentially just a delivery medium. So, on the one hand, Microsoft wants us to think that there really isn't a difference between physical disks and digital downloads, because both are accomplishing the same thing in different ways.

Yet, if they are going to allow us to give a physical game to a friend, but not a digital download game, then isn't that a bit hypocritical ? I mean, on the one hand, they are really trying to convince us that the physical disk is meaningless, but then on the other hand, they aren't going to allow us to give a digital download to a friend, so....


seems kinda weird.
Edited by Anthony1 - 6/19/13 at 1:00pm
post #3205 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcweber111 View Post

I imagine it's a bandwidth (and thus cost) issue. I could see a point where we get a wireless option but it won't be packed in with the console. For those with projectors though yeah it can be tricky if you have your equipment in another room, etc..

I'm sure you're right, but I can still dream.wink.gif

I just worry about how much they'll utilize the Kinect, because my secondary setup won't use it at all.
post #3206 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

Sharing games digitally was already easily possible on the PS3 and I'm sure it will remain so with the PS4. So that's hardly an exclusive benefit here with the Xbone.

Only DDs, not the ones that you buy on disc. If you want to share those, you're going to have to pass the disc around and only the person holding it will be able to play, just like today. On the Xbox One, what you can do with software that you purchase on disc is indistinguishable from what you can do with DDs, except that you can trade a used disc that you bought new.
post #3207 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osirus23 View Post

Because I'm not going to spend $500 to 'rent' a console from Microsoft that has to phone-home once a day to grant me permission to continue using it. It has nothing to do with whether or not I have internet access or not.

And yes, I also buy games just for the single player experience.

Again with the renting. Am I taking crazy pills?
post #3208 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

I was just listening to a podcast, and they were discussing how publishers could allow you to give your physical disk games to a friend, etc, etc.


I thought it was interesting that they used the word physical. This seems to imply that you aren't going to be able to give your digital download games to friends. What's interesting to me about this, is that MS appears to want to have their cake and eat it too, with this policy. On the one hand, they are trying to tell me that physical disks are just a means to an end. We still have to install the game to the harddrive before we play. So, the disks are essentially just a delivery medium. So, on the one hand, Microsoft wants us to think that there really isn't a difference between physical disks and digital downloads, because both are accomplishing the same thing in different ways.

Yet, if they are going to allow us to give a physical game to a friend, but not a digital download game, then isn't that a bit hypocritical ? I mean, on the one hand, they are really trying to convince us that the physical disk is meaningless, but then on the other hand, they are going to allow us to give a digital download to a friend, so....


seems kinda weird.

The idea is to kill the used market. In order to do that, they need to make sure there is a distinction between the past and their future. The physical disc is that distinction, but MS has not been so good with consistent messaging. You were not supposed to think to hard about this.

Interestingly, companies have been awarded patents for secondary sale of digital content. The future may not be written in stone yet.

http://www.google.com/patents/US8364595

http://www.geekwire.com/2013/amazon-wins-patent-reselling-lending-used-digital-goods/

MS will get around this by providing a closed system that allows no competition or used sales.
post #3209 of 14765
Just saw this on another site, but I have no idea if it is legit or not:

http://www.whathifi.com/news/microsoft-to-back-track-on-xbox-one-games-drm-and-always-online
post #3210 of 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by americangunner View Post

Just saw this on another site, but I have no idea if it is legit or not:

http://www.whathifi.com/news/microsoft-to-back-track-on-xbox-one-games-drm-and-always-online
Man would this be fantastic or what?
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