First I should emphasize that I am NOT comparing the implementation of rumble, versus that of Kinect--I'm making the observation that for the most part, they are both gimmicks--successful gimmicks--that started off as optional accessories and became included features later (assuming the Xbox One WILL come with the sensor)
Originally Posted by michaeltscott
BTW, developers have not ignored the 24 million 360 Kinects which were sold (as of February). According to this
list, there are 99 motion-control-centric Kinect-required titles for the 360 and an additional 28 games with optional Kinect control features (i.e., "Better with Kinect"), with two more of the latter scheduled for release this year. Add to that 19 released and 2 announced
Kinect XBL Arcade titles (15 Kinect Required and 6 "Better with Kinect") for a total of 146 released titles which use 360 Kinect, with 4 more on the way. I'd call that not too shabby for 2.5 years.
^This is where michaeltscott qualified the Kinect, used with the Xbox360, as a success...or barely shabby.
Originally Posted by JediMastr
For those that say having the sensor as standard equipment doesn't mean the developers will use it--or there's no historical evidence to support that assumption...why don't we just take the history of the common game controller as evidence? I remember buying rumble packs for my N64 controller--now the rumble feature is standard and commonly used in games. I remember when shoulder buttons/triggers were nothing more than redundant action buttons, but then developers started making games with shoulder button use. Then we had dual analog sticks...
^This is where I stated that the Rumble pak for Nintendo, and Kinect for Microsoft, were successful accessories. I pointed out that afterwards (after the rumble pak), the rumble feature became standard (I probably should've added "with controllers"--Gamecube controller had it built-in) and was used more commonly in games. Now the sensor is coming standard with the Xbox One, so it's possible that it too will be utilized more and more when it makes sense for developers to push the experience in gimmicky ways...remember, "gimmick" = good.
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames
The Nintendo 64's rumble pack wasn't packed in with the console so it's not evidence of a developer being more likely to utilize a feature because the necessary hardware is packed in the box from day 1.
If anything, it's evidence against what you're saying. Despite never being part of the console bundle itself, controller rumble still gained widespread acceptance on the platform after launching in 1997 with Star Fox 64 (It wasn't there when the system launched in 1996). And it rarely wasn't utilized in a situation that made sense for it very shortly after becoming available.
But I do disagree since something like that or the quick acceptance of the Dual Shock on the original Playstation are exceptions to the general rule. The surest way to get developers to use something when it makes sense is when there's an assurance that all your customers have the necessary equipment.
And the best way to have an accessory be ignored or receive relatively little attention is by forcing it to be bought separately. Look how many Wii U releases make heavy use of Wii controllers. 100 million Wii's and hundreds of millions more Wii controllers have been sold but since they're not in the box, developers are loath to rely on them for anything but optional controllers or for multiplayer.
Where the acceptance of Kinect is concerned, ensuring everyone has it is definitely the best way to go about getting it to be utilized.
It's just not something I personally want to use.
^This is where you agreed with me by saying I'm wrong...?
Originally Posted by JediMastr
It's weird, it's like you're trying to disagree with me by agreeing with me? The original rumble pack was an accessory, much like the Kinect on the 360--many games utilized both--but it wasn't until the rumble feature was included with controllers, that it became so widely used that we don't even seem surprised when it's there anymore. You say the haptic feedback feature is an exception to the rule, but the rule is, and always will be, the chicken comes before the egg--which again, you seem to agree with.
Trust me, WE know how you feel--everyone has the "but I don't want it!" response to something--but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to abandon the plan. Nintendo comes standard with motion gaming options, and now so does Microsoft...Sony has optional motion capabilities(is 6 axis in the DS4?), but it could be that their next system will come with more options standard.
^This is where I said "huh????"
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames
It's not weird, you just didn't carefully read what I said so I'll try again.
You appeared to use the Nintendo 64 rumble pack as evidence of why it's so important that an accessory is packed in with a console. But the truth of the matter is that after the rumble pack was released in 1997 for the Nintendo 64, controller vibration features were quickly and widely implemented on the platform despite it always being an optional add-on that had to be purchased separate from the system itself.
As such, it doesn't support your argument. It would have to have not been widely used by developers and gamers in order for it to support you using it as evidence on why it's so important for Kinect to be bundled with the console. Instead it became near universal where it was practical on the N64 with just the occasional exception like the two classic arcade compilations the system received.
So yes, I agree that it's important for an accessory to be packaged with a console if it's to gain widespread acceptance. I merely disagree that the Nintendo 64 rumble pack is evidence that supports that because it did gain widespread acceptance on the platform despite never having been packed in with the system.
It's evidence that a separately sold accessory can occasionally be such a hit that it still manages to gain widespread popularity, acceptance, and adoption by developers. So if we take any evidence from that, it's that Kinect 2.0 could be successful and see widespread use even if it's not standard equipment with every Xbox One sold.
And forgive me if I misread your original post, but isn't that exactly the opposite of what you argued?
^This is where you said "Naaaah check it, you ain't hearin me bro-- rumble pak was ahhhready a success--they aint even hafta put it in da box foo! Velopers were ahhhready puttin mad rumbles in dem gamez...ya herrrrd!--or am I not hearin ya right?"
>And this is me saying "what the...? speak English!" ...kidding--but maybe I can break it down a bit:
--Rumble pak = successful accessory for N64 (counted 215 games (wiki) over 6 year lifespan supporting rumble pak, might be more, but that's somewhere in the neighborhood of 56% of N64 games, if my wiki skills are adequate)
--Kinect = successful accessory for Xbox360 (from quote above, 146 games over 2.5 years supporting Kinect)
--Gamecube's controller came standard with rumble feature (year 2001 to 2007--how many games included the rumble feature on that platform? I don't know, but I'm guessing it was a bigger percentage than on the N64)
--Xbox One comes standard with sensor (remains to be seen how many games use it)
It looks like you're saying that if the rumble pak remained an optional controller add-on today, the rumble feature would still be added to pretty much every game, because it proved so popular...as if I were saying it wouldn't have been a success if it hadn't been included, and instead stayed an accessory. I didn't mean to give that impression--I was just pointing out to the people that say there's no reason to believe that developers will use the sensor just because everyone has it, that there is a precedent of what was once optional, becoming included--and developers continuing, and in the case of rumble, increasing support for it in their games (no numbers to back that up, but I can't remember the last console game I played that didn't have it, where it could/should have had it).
I'm not saying that using the Xbox One's expanded controller capability (that's what I'm calling it now) utilization will be as ubiquitous as the rumble feature--but it can get it in where it fits in.
I'm not really about just what game developers will do with the sensor, I'm more curious about where Microsoft will go with it--I can think of a few cool things that seem possible with it--I mentioned some ideas about adding popular AI personalities to the UI--and I asked you guys in an earlier post if there was anything you could see coming from this technology, that would make you say "you know what...it might be an eye-sore I can't unplug, and may have added $100 to the price, but that right there is pretty fricken cool I must admit"...what does it have to do to get you there?
Someone mentioned the 6-axis earlier...am I the only one that liked that gimmick? I actually liked piloting the dragons in "Lair"...it was different and challenging. And "Heavenly Sword" remains one of my favorite games--especially fun were those parts where you had to guide the projectiles using the 6-axis. I don't blame Sony for trying something gimmicky like that...even though I can imagine it was an added cost--probably not much though.