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The Official Xbox One thread... - Page 199

post #5941 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

After this and I believe the elimination of outrageous patch fees, I hope streamlining the certification process to make it more efficient will be next. Any time you hear a publisher talk about gaining certification for their XBLA release, it's portrayed as a nightmare compared to any other platform.

I think you have to take some of those stories with a grain of salt. The people who have no problem with certification are less likely to make a big deal at how smooth the process was. It also does not make for click grabbing headlines so is less likely to be written about. There have been plenty of devs indy and otherwise who do not have a problem with the current certification process. Microsoft streamlining the process is not a bad thing, but sometimes this "nightmare" perception does not represent everyone's reality.
post #5942 of 14775

Holy cow enough of the Kinect stuff already.  You guys are arguing just for the sake of arguing.  It is really pretty damm simple, if you don't want to pay extra for a Kinect don't buy the system.  You are arguing over something when the solution to your angst is go get a PS4, vote with your money, and be done with it.

 

If you want to stay with the Xbox One because of exclusives then save up for another month or two and get the system.  This is what Microsoft is betting on, that your desire for exclusives and the Live experience outweigh your hatred of the Kinect.  In the end nobody is forcing you to buy either system.

 

Laters,

Jeff

post #5943 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by eq_shadimar View Post

Holy cow enough of the Kinect stuff already.  You guys are arguing just for the sake of arguing.  It is really pretty damm simple, if you don't want to pay extra for a Kinect don't buy the system.  You are arguing over something when the solution to your angst is go get a PS4, vote with your money, and be done with it.


If you want to stay with the Xbox One because of exclusives then save up for another month or two and get the system.  This is what Microsoft is betting on, that your desire for exclusives and the Live experience outweigh your hatred of the Kinect.  In the end nobody is forcing you to buy either system.


Laters,

Jeff

See but their plan is if they raise enough stink they can effect this like they believe they did the DRM issues. Don't worry about the fact that many of us are actually anticipating getting the new Kinect with the system, just bitch and moan enough and eventually you'll get your way. I agree with you and frankly this will be my last post talking about Kinect in this thread. There is an official thread on this, after all.
post #5944 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripeer View Post

Yes, yes I do. All I want from a new 360 is FHD, 60fps, better/fairer AI and larger lusher environments..... None of these need some thing reading my heart rate or having me jump around like an idiot.

I said it several pages ago and I'll again. To my knowledge no one big figured how to meaningfully use the Kinect one on Xbox 360 so why is it going to be any better with Kinect 2.0
You missed the point. If people went by that logic with past console developments, your next-gen system would have no hard drive, still use cartridges, have telephone modem jacks, and no rumble in the controllers. Either way, you don't get to retroactively design a console for them... so make your purchase accordingly. And if you decide to jump in, see ya' on Live! wink.gif
post #5945 of 14775
I think what MS is doing is the best business choice for pushing their unique selling premise. The first 5 million XB1's will be sold with absolutely no question. If anything expect a shortage and for people be flipping them on Ebay & Craigslist. So why not use it as an opportunity to establish a firm Kinect base where developers cant ignore the market for it.

If after a year sales are slowing or Kinect 2.0 isnt catching as expected. Then do exactly what Sony did when they realized their overengineered $599 PS3 wasnt a hot seller.. they cut some features and dropped the price. There is no rule that says just because the XB1 launches with Kinect required and a $499 pricetag, that a year from now they cannot offer a non-Kinect version for $399. BUT. If after a year, Kinect 2.0 lives up to the hype. And its a true game changer.. then think of how the bet will have paid off. The XB1 will continue to offer a unique selling feature that the PS4 cannot match. And it could be a big difference maker for those people on the fence about which system they are choosing to invest in. After all, isnt the point of NextGen systems is to bring next gen technology? If we are just talking about better graphics, then honestly Im still pretty satisfied with the graphics I have on my 360 & PS3. I cant ever recall saying, wow this game sure could use better graphics. What I can recall saying is that they need to fix the lag or why is it taking so long for an update to be issued to fix this problem with matchmaking/cheating/connections/etc.

I'm honestly surprised there arent more people like me, who are just blindly buying both consoles with no questions asked. Considering I'm a tech geek who paid $700 for my smartphone, $1600 for the my laptop, $200 every month for cable & fast internet. And am currently investing about $1500 into my upcoming 15TB NAS solution, to replace my older $600 6TB NAS. Paying a combined price of $900 for both the XB1 & PS4 seems like a HELL of deal. Chances are I'll probably be using these same two systems for the next 5 years or so. I'll be using these systems much longer than I do almost any other consumer electronic good in my home, except for maybe my plasma TV. (I've been using that 8 years already and have no plans to get rid of it).

The whole one side vs. another.. or people being strictly loyal to one side.. or those people who spend their entire day trolling/hating on a console they are DEFINITELY not going to purchase seems pretty silly to me. Especially considering both consoles are fairly cheap bargains for the capabilities they offer and are able to provide endless hours of entertainment for friends & family.
post #5946 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekwan View Post

I think what MS is doing is the best business choice for pushing their unique selling premise. The first 5 million XB1's will be sold with absolutely no question. If anything expect a shortage and for people be flipping them on Ebay & Craigslist. So why not use it as an opportunity to establish a firm Kinect base where developers cant ignore the market for it.

If after a year sales are slowing or Kinect 2.0 isnt catching as expected. Then do exactly what Sony did when they realized their overengineered $599 PS3 wasnt a hot seller.. they cut some features and dropped the price. There is no rule that says just because the XB1 launches with Kinect required and a $499 pricetag, that a year from now they cannot offer a non-Kinect version for $399. BUT. If after a year, Kinect 2.0 lives up to the hype. And its a true game changer.. then think of how the bet will have paid off. The XB1 will continue to offer a unique selling feature that the PS4 cannot match. And it could be a big difference maker for those people on the fence about which system they are choosing to invest in. After all, isnt the point of NextGen systems is to bring next gen technology? If we are just talking about better graphics, then honestly Im still pretty satisfied with the graphics I have on my 360 & PS3. I cant ever recall saying, wow this game sure could use better graphics. What I can recall saying is that they need to fix the lag or why is it taking so long for an update to be issued to fix this problem with matchmaking/cheating/connections/etc.

I'm honestly surprised there arent more people like me, who are just blindly buying both consoles with no questions asked. Considering I'm a tech geek who paid $700 for my smartphone, $1600 for the my laptop, $200 every month for cable & fast internet. And am currently investing about $1500 into my upcoming 15TB NAS solution, to replace my older $600 6TB NAS. Paying a combined price of $900 for both the XB1 & PS4 seems like a HELL of deal. Chances are I'll probably be using these same two systems for the next 5 years or so. I'll be using these systems much longer than I do almost any other consumer electronic good in my home, except for maybe my plasma TV. (I've been using that 8 years already and have no plans to get rid of it).

The whole one side vs. another.. or people being strictly loyal to one side.. or those people who spend their entire day trolling/hating on a console they are DEFINITELY not going to purchase seems pretty silly to me. Especially considering both consoles are fairly cheap bargains for the capabilities they offer and are able to provide endless hours of entertainment for friends & family.
Man, if I could give your post 10 thumbs up, I would.

Meanwhile... http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-ps3-system-software-memory
So now Sony fans who said 5gb wasn't enough on Xbox One can say, "PC doesn't use that much for 1080p" as well! biggrin.gif

(Seriously, these are both going to be awesome systems. All this spec talk is just funny now.)
post #5947 of 14775
Quote:
I cant ever recall saying, wow this game sure could use better graphics.

Heh, it's just about all I can think any time I fire up a console game nowadays.
post #5948 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

Man, if I could give your post 10 thumbs up, I would.

Meanwhile... http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-ps3-system-software-memory
So now Sony fans who said 5gb wasn't enough on Xbox One can say, "PC doesn't use that much for 1080p" as well! biggrin.gif

(Seriously, these are both going to be awesome systems. All this spec talk is just funny now.)

This just shows why people need to learn to wait for all the facts. Developers not in the know and forum analyst don't have all the facts but as we saw all this one sided hate about footprints and features. At the end of the day this is supposed to be about personal enjoyment of a hobby. Too much cheerleading.
post #5949 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Heh, it's just about all I can think any time I fire up a console game nowadays.

Agreed, as much as I still appreciate the graphics of games these days and I am still impressed with certain games. Most recent example is I think, 'what would The Last of Us look like on hardware that isn't 7 years old. 1080p and 60fps, much higher asset textures, etc". Far Cry 3, as cool as it is on consoles could be improved upon dramatically; just take a look at the high end PC pics of the game (plus the huge frame rate advantage).

Dark Souls for example, when that hit PC and had the "Durante Fix" applied, Holy hell it looks breathtaking!

It is the same reason I watch Blu-ray's instead of DVD's. Upgraded my tv many times over my life time. Better audio visual experiences. If didn't care about better picture quality and better audio I'd still be watching VHS tapes on a old giant bulky CRT set.
Edited by freemeat - 7/26/13 at 9:20am
post #5950 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post

This just shows why people need to learn to wait for all the facts. Developers not in the know and forum analyst don't have all the facts but as we saw all this one sided hate about footprints and features. At the end of the day this is supposed to be about personal enjoyment of a hobby. Too much cheerleading.

True. So many rumors flying around all the time. Bottom line is previously people on both sides were excited for the thought of a bump up to 4GB in Ram. Then we learned both consoles were getting 8. 4 is still a massive bump from 6-7 years ago. I know I have the mentality of always wanted more when I buy things but I have zero doubt we are going to see some truly breathtaking games.
post #5951 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

True. So many rumors flying around all the time. Bottom line is previously people on both sides were excited for the thought of a bump up to 4GB in Ram. Then we learned both consoles were getting 8. 4 is still a massive bump from 6-7 years ago. I know I have the mentality of always wanted more when I buy things but I have zero doubt we are going to see some truly breathtaking games.

What's really lame about that RAM announcement is that it brought that inflection point, where PC games start to easily surpass console games, another 1-2 years closer. It lowered the bar for the entire industry.
post #5952 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

The Kinect can recognize individual fingers so there is no reason a game couldn't use signals which don't require hands coming off the controller.

I hope that it will recognize my middle finger stuck out its way and get offended by that too.
post #5953 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

What's really lame about that RAM announcement is that it brought that inflection point, where PC games start to easily surpass console games, another 1-2 years closer. It lowered the bar for the entire industry.
Actually, I don't think it does. I think with the architecture of these systems, you have to look at the memory management more as you would the smartphone space than the PC space. Both PS4 and Xbox One are using suspend/resume for saving game states at the hardware level. Logically, that may require a certain allocation on the OS side so that those states can be held in RAM until a threshold is met to intelligently swap them to the hard drive. This enables the rapid switching in and out of games that aren't held in memory by just caching an area of RAM roughly the size we see for save game files now.

We know from the PC that the most RAM used both by CPU and GPU for games at 1080p thus far is around 3.8gb. The only game that breaks that is Bioshock Infinite, and that's due more to mismanagement by the Unreal Engine than it having greater technical needs at a 1080p target render. Keep in mind that this is for ULTRA-level settings on the PC. So the initial allocation of around 5.5gb that we're seeing is actually quite bountiful. Then you have advances in both OpenGL (PS4) and DirectX 11.2 (PC, Xbox One) in streaming tiled resources into RAM as needed rather than holding all the texture data as a constant that will effectively limit the amount of RAM you would actually need to use at any given time.

Of course, we see video cards in the PC space that are going to have ridiculous amounts of memory in the near future... but again, the target render for the consoles remains constant at 1920x1080, whereas PC is always the bleeding edge for higher resolutions. PC games will always be technically better than console, even at the launch of new consoles. But I don't see this division of RAM as a problem. In fact, I think these next-gen consoles leveraging 6 cores each solely for games will actually help push multi-threading more on the PC, which will be a boon for all of the platforms.
post #5954 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazylik View Post

I hope that it will recognize my middle finger stuck out its way and get offended by that too.

LOL!
post #5955 of 14775
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

Well, I for one would not be okay with it. Those things I prefer to reserve for my interaction with a woman.

I just want a top of the line, extremely sophisticated gaming console. I just don't understand why some people want these other things, especially when they apparently are only available through the handicapping of the rest of the system.
The real question is "Why does this different experience have to be with XBox? Why can't XBox be the normal gaming system and PS4 can just do the odd non console related stuff?"

If they threw out the Kinect and TV stuff, but kept the rest of the hardware, it might be on par with PS4. Then I would have no reason to want to jump ship. I like the 360 experience for the most part. Just simply improve on it as opposed to drastically changing it.
IDK, but if they want my business at launch they need to find a way. Same for post launch.

So the PS4 is a more powerful 360 huh? So what does that make the XBone then?
I was so looking forward to the new Xbox.

1080p, 60 frames per second, multiplayer count of my favorite game going from 24 to 64 (maybe 70) total players. But then they go and do all this other stuff and offer a lesser system to the majority of gamers because of this.

Has it been confirmed yet that XBone will even be able to offer 1080p / 60fps with their specs?

Too bad this thread was started in haste, other wise I could just check the first page every couple of days. Guess it's every man for himself here though, regarding XBone info at avs.
Whoa...what's this "we" jazz?

For the record, I am highly disappointed that I have to change consoles to get what I want. Do you really think that is fair?
Welcome to the "official" XBone thread here at avs. I'm honestly not sure why I come into it every time I do.
if you would like to throw together some factual information to put in the first post I'd gladly update the first post. Other than the price and general dates and specs we honestly don't know much. Who looks at the first post more than once anyway?
post #5956 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

Actually, I don't think it does. I think with the architecture of these systems, you have to look at the memory management more as you would the smartphone space than the PC space. Both PS4 and Xbox One are using suspend/resume for saving game states at the hardware level. Logically, that may require a certain allocation on the OS side so that those states can be held in RAM until a threshold is met to intelligently swap them to the hard drive. This enables the rapid switching in and out of games that aren't held in memory by just caching an area of RAM roughly the size we see for save game files now.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that you believe part of the 3GB reserved for the X1 OS will be used to cache a recently played game from the 5GB partition?
post #5957 of 14775
LOL. I visited page 1 for the first time. that first post seriously needs to be edited. It's like a flashback to May...
post #5958 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that you believe part of the 3GB reserved for the X1 OS will be used to cache a recently played game from the 5GB partition?

I would guess the Xbox One is using a form of hybrid sleep inherited from Windows 8 which gives the best balance between the fast resume from sleep but the safety net of hibernate in case of a power failure or system crash. Hybrid sleep's come a good way since its introduction in Windows Vista.
post #5959 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that you believe part of the 3GB reserved for the X1 OS will be used to cache a recently played game from the 5GB partition?
It isn't so much caching like we normally see (i.e. caching of the executable the way Win7/8 does) as it is saving the memory state when you left the game, which changes the nature of our idea of "save games". For example, you're playing Dead Rising 3 solo and get an invite to Battlefield 4. Instead of the old notion of having to stop and save your game, go to the dashboard, then load BF4, you basically just load BF4... and then as DR3 is being left, it caches out the information it needs to a temporary space of memory. You play BF4 for a while, decide to go back to DR3, and the system can quickly load the executable for the game from HDD, load the suspended state of that game from the reserved space, then load in the resources for the game accordingly so you're changing games VERY quickly rather than the usual dashboard, load game, dig through menu, load save game method. The Jaguar architecture both the next-gen systems are using is actually designed for that kind of fast-swapping functionality.

Now, we KNOW that they're doing this kind of suspend/resume method on both of the next-gen systems because both have said so. As to the actual mechanics of that in the memory, we can't say. However, it does make sense that this 3gb reserved space could be used for that feature. Then all you have to do is have it clear out the cache on a timetable to the HDD when that suspend state isn't needed. Smartphones use this method right now to quickly change apps and resume apps where you left off. Of course, the other possibility is that they have a separate cache space allocated outside of the 3gb/5gb split (since we don't actually know the full details on that). That cache space for suspend/resume really wouldn't have to be big, since it's basically having to deal with file sizes roughly akin to save game files on consoles now (so you could have like 20mb allocated for that and get suspend states for all your games and apps in memory intelligently as you load them in/out). Then from a system architecture standpoint, you just have a slight amount of reserve power built into the HDD so that the cache clear could be completed if the system loses power (which HDDs in PC actually have now to prevent data loss from brownouts). Alternately, you also have an automatic cache clear occur when the system is in its low power mode for a defined length of time or, in the case of a complete shutdown, clear the cache during that. Windows 8's fast resume function is actually very similar to this, except dealing with the suspend state of the entire memory footprint rather than just the app's suspend data. A better example would be the Win8 kernel on Windows Phones right now, which can multitask between apps using lower powered CPUs than other phones using suspend/resume states shuffled between system ram and onboard storage ram.

The above is why I believe part of that 3gb reservation could be used in such a way, especially when you consider that Xbox One will be using a pared-down purpose-built version of the Win8 kernel on the OS side, which means it would have a smaller footprint than Win8 on the PC.
post #5960 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by spid View Post

I think you have to take some of those stories with a grain of salt. The people who have no problem with certification are less likely to make a big deal at how smooth the process was. It also does not make for click grabbing headlines so is less likely to be written about. There have been plenty of devs indy and otherwise who do not have a problem with the current certification process. Microsoft streamlining the process is not a bad thing, but sometimes this "nightmare" perception does not represent everyone's reality.

It disproportionately effects Indys and FTP/MMO Developers. Indys because they’re small, so bugs and troubleshooting launches/patches is not only much harder for them, but releasing patches at $10,000 per cert is impossible. If they make a mistake, it’s devastating because they really can’t afford to fix it. The means are there, but the prohibitive cost to keep normal devs from flooding patches and updated willy nilly, means Indys get crushed. FTP/MMO update a lot, and like to balance in real time. They might have deeper pockets, but they’re exactly the sort of Dev that relies on quick patching to the community as BAU due to the nature of those types of games.

In the end the high price while a revenue source, was also a blanket tool to keep Developers in line when it came to patching. But with the advent of Indy/FTP/MMO; platforms need to do a better job of finding a new way to keep normal dev’s honest, while allowing patch/price flexibility for the new models that popped up. The blanket pricy cost no longer works as well.
post #5961 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

(Seriously, these are both going to be awesome systems. All this spec talk is just funny now.)

Sonys still got the better Spec's; this is an allocation of those Specs. It also (unfortunately IMO) means they're gunning for the same features as MS (Apps, snappy interface, social media, probably multimedia).

Bad news for Redmond here, because now we might get much closer game-media systems and Sonys got the one with a bigger engine under the hood. Bad news for Sony, because they probably just irked the hardcore gamers that have been so enthralled with them. Good news for both since well get another round of preorders changing back and forth.
post #5962 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Bad news for Redmond here, because now we might get much closer game-media systems and Sonys got the one with a bigger engine under the hood. Bad news for Sony, because they probably just irked the hardcore gamers that have been so enthralled with them. Good news for both since well get another round of preorders changing back and forth.
It's a good thing Xbox One has something in the box that differentiates it from PS4, huh? biggrin.gif

I don't see pre-orders changing over this. The only people this actually matters to are developers who likely already knew it anyway. What will matter to consumers is how each system performs in the wild, not the specs behind it. This just isn't really NEWS to me. Armchair system designers on the internet have gotten way too hung up on this stuff.
post #5963 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Sonys still got the better Spec's;

OMG!!! zOMG! Xbox One has more dedicated memory for gaming, thus its the better system! LOLz /sarcasm... (although they do have more dedicated memory for gaming)

On a more serious note, the specs are very similar and with the memory allocation being so similar. Their is going to be very little difference between the two consoles graphically. The 360 was underpowered and it held its own. Each system is going to give great gaming fidelity. If you want the PS4 cause you think its specs are gonna make a world of difference, then by all means buy it! No one is forcing you to buy the Xbox One. Life is about preferences and MS is winning it for me personally more so then Sony (especially because of things like Kinnect, which is not an accessory for Xbox One)). So MS has my money and Sony may have yours.
post #5964 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

It isn't so much caching....etc etc

I understand how it works....I just haven't seen any indication that they're actually doing that. From what I've read, the 5GB/3GB is a hard split. Could they be saving part of a game in that 3GB, in order to facilitate a much faster swap between two games? Sure, but they'll probably need 1-2GB for that at bare minimum....so that doesn't leave much for the OS and apps.

And even then, thats not nearly enough memory for the other game in full. The best case scenario read from that HDD is 100mbish a sec, so it won't make a very good cache to facilitate a "quick swap" when you need to fill up a few GB. Plus, it can't exactly read in the new game at the same time its paging out the other game. A phone/tablet is dealing with much smaller amounts of data, and it's usually reading/writing to solid state.

Knowing that, I've always understood that you can quick swap/snap between full games and apps, apps and apps....but not full games and full games.
post #5965 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

It's a good thing Xbox One has something in the box that differentiates it from PS4, huh? biggrin.gif

I think we've done that dance to death, so I'll just smile as well and we shall wait and see.

(For the record, I never said I think they need to drop it, just allow options with it)
post #5966 of 14775
Pretty cool new post by ms: http://news.xbox.com/2013/07/games-dead-rising-3-sdcc

Check out the Video also:


biggrin.gif This game looks amazing!!! A must have launch title in my opinion! (assuming you like zombie games..)
post #5967 of 14775
Being attacked by zombie Lawrence Taylor would be scarey as hell!
post #5968 of 14775
Never played the first two dead rising games. I noticed on Metacritic the first game scored well. The 2nd game not so well. Regardless, It does look good.
post #5969 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I understand how it works....I just haven't seen any indication that they're actually doing that. From what I've read, the 5GB/3GB is a hard split. Could they be saving part of a game in that 3GB, in order to facilitate a much faster swap between two games? Sure, but they'll probably need 1-2GB for that at bare minimum....so that doesn't leave much for the OS and apps.

And even then, thats not nearly enough memory for the other game in full. The best case scenario read from that HDD is 100mbish a sec, so it won't make a very good cache to facilitate a "quick swap" when you need to fill up a few GB. Plus, it can't exactly read in the new game at the same time its paging out the other game. A phone/tablet is dealing with much smaller amounts of data, and it's usually reading/writing to solid state.

Knowing that, I've always understood that you can quick swap/snap between full games and apps, apps and apps....but not full games and full games.

I'm guessing you mean 100MB/s or 800mb/s. And I hope their hard drive isn't that slow. My green drives from four years ago are at least that fast. The drives available today are easily faster since the platter density is much, much higher.
post #5970 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I'm guessing you mean 100MB/s or 800mb/s. And I hope their hard drive isn't that slow. My green drives from four years ago are at least that fast. The drives available today are easily faster since the platter density is much, much higher.

Yeah, 100 megabytes a sec. Your green has the luxury of being a 3.5 inch drive though....all we know about the X1's HDD is that it's 500gb, so probably not all that high density. It's probably a 2.5inch HDD like every other console. Even giving it the benefit of the doubt and assuming it's something like a 7200rpm WD scorpio black, 100MB a sec is pretty much the max, and that's a pure sequential read at the outer rim.
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