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The Official Xbox One thread... - Page 227

post #6781 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

Of course it doesn't support BT. The 360 doesn't either.

So my official Xbox 360 headset works on the PS4, but not the X1. Sigh.

You sure it doesn't have BT at all? I'd think they'd want it in there for streaming audio, phone connectivity etc.
post #6782 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

So my official Xbox 360 headset works on the PS4, but not the X1. Sigh.

You sure it doesn't have BT at all? I'd think they'd want it in there for streaming audio, phone connectivity etc.

You can stream the audio over wireless. Didn't they mention the XBOne will have WiFi direct for a direct connection to the XBOne?
post #6783 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianbat420 View Post

wow people will complain about ANYTHING. Hard drives on a CONSOLE? Srs... Has anyone complained about it being black yet? How about there is an xbox logo on it? Holy hell this is 'Merica, if you dont like it then dont buy it! mad.gif

I cant wait for the One. I am getting so tired of the slow laggy dashboard it is like someone forcing me to watch jersey shore, painful

The XB1 logo really needs to be re-done. It's clear MSFT has made it stand out on the XB1 and made it just because they are wearing moneyhats.

Additionally, how horrible is the blu-ray slot drive, my god, if they dont make that customizable by including a tray loading option, i may have to cancel my pre-order, MSFT is really pushing its luck with me.
post #6784 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

So my official Xbox 360 headset works on the PS4

you bought the headset?
post #6785 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

you bought the headset?

Yeah, I'm talking about the late-model wireless one. It was like 60 bucks.
post #6786 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

So my official Xbox 360 headset works on the PS4, but not the X1. Sigh.

You sure it doesn't have BT at all? I'd think they'd want it in there for streaming audio, phone connectivity etc.

Yes but let's keep some objectivity about it. The only reason it works is because it's more than likely a rebadged Jabra set with a 360 specific radio included. The original wireless 360 headset didn't have a BT radio so I'm sure MS got a sweetheart deal from Jabra to make one for their system. BT functionality wasn't the main intention of the unit. Sure the PS3 and subsequently the PS4 can use it but so what? That's a by product of those systems using BT. MS decided to use a proprietary radio technology. I can understand anger towards that though as it'd be nice to keep the same accessories but eh it's really not that big a deal in the long run and doesn't say anything negative about the system outside of whether you agree with their design decisions.
post #6787 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

So my official Xbox 360 headset works on the PS4, but not the X1. Sigh.

You sure it doesn't have BT at all? I'd think they'd want it in there for streaming audio, phone connectivity etc.
Nope. The 360 BT headset didn't use BT for the 360 - it just let you switch to BT for other devices. And since they've changed the transmission method to handle the decreased latency and increased voice quality, the 360 wireless headsets aren't compatible. They actually pegged out the maximum sampling rate during one of the dashboard updates (which is why people in the beta for that one could no longer communicate to other 360 players for party chat until it released publicly).

And yes, I'm sure. No Bluetooth radio has been revealed, nor is one listed in their FCC application. They're not using Bluetooth at all, and neither did the 360.
post #6788 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcweber111 View Post

Yes but let's keep some objectivity about it. The only reason it works is because it's more than likely a rebadged Jabra set with a 360 specific radio included. The original wireless 360 headset didn't have a BT radio so I'm sure MS got a sweetheart deal from Jabra to make one for their system. BT functionality wasn't the main intention of the unit. Sure the PS3 and subsequently the PS4 can use it but so what? That's a by product of those systems using BT. MS decided to use a proprietary radio technology. I can understand anger towards that though as it'd be nice to keep the same accessories but eh it's really not that big a deal in the long run and doesn't say anything negative about the system outside of whether you agree with their design decisions.
Some of it has to do with the increased sampling rates they're using, which could primarily be for Skype, but should benefit clarity of speech in party chat/games as well. From what I understand, they're using WiFi Direct, but have their own proprietary format for the controllers/headsets on top of that.

And I get why people would want to reuse accessories... but sometimes, that gets in the way of progress. I'm glad they're lowering the controller latency and allowing direct streaming of game audio to the controller (and eventually to fully wireless headsets). I do wish they had something similar to the 360 BT headset at launch, but I'm sure that's in the works as well.
post #6789 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcweber111 View Post

Yes but let's keep some objectivity about it. The only reason it works is because it's more than likely a rebadged Jabra set with a 360 specific radio included. The original wireless 360 headset didn't have a BT radio so I'm sure MS got a sweetheart deal from Jabra to make one for their system. BT functionality wasn't the main intention of the unit. Sure the PS3 and subsequently the PS4 can use it but so what? That's a by product of those systems using BT. MS decided to use a proprietary radio technology. I can understand anger towards that though as it'd be nice to keep the same accessories but eh it's really not that big a deal in the long run and doesn't say anything negative about the system outside of whether you agree with their design decisions.

I am being objective about it. Its a perfectly fine headset in both 360 and BT mode. I only bought it because it was one of the few MS accessories that had some compatibility outside of it's own little bubble, and it's been great. I flick a switch and it goes from 360 mode to PS3 mode. Now it's only useful on the PS4 next gen. Not the end of the world but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 


I would have been fine with them breaking compatibility with 360 peripherals for a move towards using open standards.  Instead they just created another proprietary standard. It's super lame. They can make whatever super snazzy wireless protocols they want, and still offer broader compatibility, just like they did with the 360 headset.
 
post #6790 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I am being objective about it. Its a perfectly fine headset in both 360 and BT mode. I only bought it because it was one of the few MS accessories that had some compatibility outside of it's own little bubble, and it's been great. I flick a switch and it goes from 360 mode to PS3 mode. Now it's only useful on the PS4 next gen. Not the end of the world but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Nah, you could always pair your phone with it and walk around pretending you're having a real conversation. tongue.gif
post #6791 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I am being objective about it. Its a perfectly fine headset in both 360 and BT mode. I only bought it because it was one of the few MS accessories that had some compatibility outside of it's own little bubble, and it's been great. I flick a switch and it goes from 360 mode to PS3 mode. Now it's only useful on the PS4 next gen. Not the end of the world but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 


I would have been fine with them breaking compatibility with 360 peripherals for a move towards using open standards.  Instead they just created another proprietary standard. It's super lame. They can make whatever super snazzy wireless protocols they want, and still offer broader compatibility, just like they did with the 360 headset.
 

But by going with their proprietary standard, it will be higher quality than if they used the open standard. Their standard allows for more bandwidth than BT does.
post #6792 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

But by going with their proprietary standard, it will be higher quality than if they used the open standard. Their standard allows for more bandwidth than BT does.

Would you prefer it they dropped all the USB ports for a faster proprietary port?
post #6793 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Would you prefer it they dropped all the USB ports for a faster proprietary port?

USB 3.0 is already very fast. 5Gb/s. Bluetooth is slow. 24Mb/s. And when you are talking about bandwidth that low, just a 20% or 30% increase can make a big difference. Plus the latency is supposed to be lower with what MS is using. Although I have no idea how the speeds of what MS is using compares to BT4.0.
EDIT: I see BT 4.0 is the current standard. It's supposed to be faster but I have not been able to find the speeds for it like the previous versions of BT.

EDIT: It looks like BT 4.0 still has the same bandwidth but the devices can use much lower power, and it can have a range up to 60 meters

All I've seen MS say is that they have 20x the bandwidth than they did with the 360 controller. But if that was equal to what BT could do at the time, 3Mb/s, then 20x that would be alot more bandwidth than what BT 4.0 has.
Edited by aaronwt - 8/16/13 at 5:39pm
post #6794 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

USB 3.0 is already very fast. 5Gb/s. Bluetooth is slow. 24Mb/s. And when you are talking about bandwidth that low, just a 20% or 30% increase can make a big difference. Plus the latency is supposed to be lower with what MS is using. Although I have no idea how the speeds of what MS is using compares to BT4.0.
EDIT: I see BT 4.0 is the current standard. It's supposed to be faster but I have not been able to find the speeds for it like the previous versions of BT.

EDIT: It looks like BT 4.0 still has the same bandwidth but the devices can use much lower power, and it can have a range up to 60 meters

All I've seen MS say is that they have 20x the bandwidth than they did with the 360 controller. But if that was equal to what BT could do at the time, 3Mb/s, then 20x that would be alot more bandwidth than what BT 4.0 has.

Even 24mb/s is outrageously massive overkill for devices like controllers and headsets. Just like USB 3.0, its already more than fast enough for its intended purpose. There are certainly faster, less compatible alternatives to USB 3.0 that they could have used...but aren't you glad they didn't?
Edited by bd2003 - 8/16/13 at 6:09pm
post #6795 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Even 24mb/s is outrageously massive overkill for devices like controllers and headsets. Just like USB 3.0, its already more than fast enough for its intended purpose. There are certainly faster, less compatible alternatives to USB 3.0 that they could have used...but aren't you glad they didn't?
What, like 10G fiber using iSCSI LUNs?
post #6796 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Even 24mb/s is outrageously massive overkill for devices like controllers and headsets. Just like USB 3.0, its already more than fast enough for its intended purpose. There are certainly faster, less compatible alternatives to USB 3.0 that they could have used...but aren't you glad they didn't?

I thought MS wanted the capability to be able to connect a bunch of devices if needed. Who knows what will be around in five years?
post #6797 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

What, like 10G fiber using iSCSI LUNs?

Thunderbolt.
post #6798 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

I thought MS wanted the capability to be able to connect a bunch of devices if needed. Who knows what will be around in five years?

24mbps could support a ton of controllers and headsets at the same time. Anything that needs more bandwidth than that can use WiFi.
Edited by bd2003 - 8/16/13 at 6:36pm
post #6799 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

24mbps could support a ton of controllers and headsets at the same time. Anything that needs more bandwidth than that can use WiFi.
Has there been any documentation indicating how much throughput the XB1 controller uses? And WiFi would be terrible for controllers. Devices that use that spectrum are ubiquitous (including microwave ovens) and even commercial radios struggle with latency and sustained data transfer rates. Have you ever watched the negotiation on a wifi connection? Most of the time the signal speed is all over the map.
post #6800 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post


Has there been any documentation indicating how much throughput the XB1 controller uses? 

 

They said the audio streams uncompressed at 24khz/16bit both ways = 768kbps. You've got 10 digital buttons and 4 directions on the dpad, all at 1 bit precision. (14bits).  256 step precision on the analog sticks and triggers gives 6 axes at 8 bits each. 62bit so far....add another 16bit or so for the rumble and you're at 78bits. Assuming the controller is polled at 120hz, you're looking at a whopping 9kbps for the actual input.  Even with a good amount of overhead...each controller with audio is well under 1mbps.     
 

According to kotaku: "The internal wireless protocol that allows the controller to communicate with the console has been overhauled from the 360 era, replacing a 1.6 megabit per second connection of the old one with a modified WiFi protocol for the new one that enables 20 times the bandwidth which, in turn, Alam said, "allows a whole different variety of different accessories we can build with the controller and around the controller."

 

http://kotaku.com/how-the-xbox-one-controller-has-changed-1109126240

 

1.6x20 = 32mbps....it's not a huge difference over 24mpbs, certainly not a good enough reason not to use bluetooth.  But of course, bandwidth isn't the real reason theyre not using bluetooth.   

 

And speaking of latency:

 

The new proprietary protocol—to be clear, it's not WiFi nor Bluetooth, which Alam said was too slow for their needs—should reduce controller-to-console latency by 20% compared to the old 360 connection. How fast? Alam says that the time from button press on an Xbox One controller to the console receiving the signal should be 9 milliseconds. 

 

They dropped the latency from 11ms to 9ms. Every little bit counts of course, but a ridiculously tiny difference, and BT 4.0 probably enables a similar boost. 

 
And WiFi would be terrible for controllers. Devices that use that spectrum are ubiquitous (including microwave ovens) and even commercial radios struggle with latency and sustained data transfer rates. Have you ever watched the negotiation on a wifi connection? Most of the time the signal speed is all over the map.

 

Bluetooth uses the same 2.4ghz spectrum, as did the original 360 controller spec...and being that it's a "modified wifi protocol", the new controller spec is almost certainly 2.4ghz as well.


Edited by bd2003 - 8/16/13 at 7:25pm
post #6801 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

And speaking of latency:


Quote:
The new proprietary protocol—to be clear, it's not WiFi nor Bluetooth, which Alam said was too slow for their needs—should reduce controller-to-console latency by 20% compared to the old 360 connection. How fast? Alam says that the time from button press on an Xbox One controller to the console receiving the signal should be 9 milliseconds.


They dropped the latency from 11ms to 9ms. Every little bit counts of course, but a ridiculously tiny difference, and BT 4.0 probably enables a similar boost.

Thats a 18% reduction in lag. Sure the times are small, but still an almost 20% reduction in latency is pretty good IMO.
post #6802 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post


Thats a 18% reduction in lag. Sure the times are small, but still an almost 20% reduction in latency is pretty good IMO.

 

Just dont forget that the primary cause for input lag is your TV and the game itself.  The best case scenario at 60fps on a tight engine is like 50ms, the best case response for a TV is a single frame at 16ms.  

 

So in the absolute best case scenario, it amounts to a drop from 66ms to 64ms...an earth shaking 3% reduction in real world latency. 

 

Every little bit counts of course, but I'm just trying to be realistic...it's an insignificant gain in the grand scheme of things. 

post #6803 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Just dont forget that the primary cause for input lag is your TV and the game itself.  The best case scenario at 60fps on a tight engine is like 50ms, the best case response for a TV is a single frame at 16ms.  

So in the absolute best case scenario, it amounts to a drop from 66ms to 64ms...an earth shaking 3% reduction in real world latency. 

Every little bit counts of course, but I'm just trying to be realistic...it's an insignificant gain in the grand scheme of things. 
Every little bit does count. I've always played wired because the latency is noticeable and this new standard won't change that (for me). And I agree with what you're saying. Unless they have some plan for input devices that we haven't thought of, 24mbps is overkill. Maybe the licensing fees were a consideration? Bluetooth is a common standard but it isn't open source.
post #6804 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

Every little bit does count. I've always played wired because the latency is noticeable and this new standard won't change that (for me). And I agree with what you're saying. Unless they have some plan for input devices that we haven't thought of, 24mbps is overkill. Maybe the licensing fees were a consideration? Bluetooth is a common standard but it isn't open source.

Doesn't BT also have a device limit of 7 or so? That might be another reason MS is using the proprietary system? But since it does need to last many years, better to have as many devices as possible and as much bandwidth as possible too. Since no one can predict for sure what devices will be connected to the system in a few years.
post #6805 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

And yet, it still looks to be an excellent gaming system, despite all the other inclusions. Perhaps it just doesn't hold up to people's silly comparison to PS4's specs... but then, it doesn't have to. It's its own product, and both will handle the gaming stuff fairly the same. Each will have their pros and cons for developers... Each will handle non-gaming stuff differently. But historically, Microsoft has been pretty good about guessing which way the wind is gonna blow in this space... so I'm good with seeing how they fare this time. Anyone laser-focused on spec sheets instead of implementation has already made their choice, and I don't begrudge them that, however meaningless a metric I think it ultimately is. I'm getting a kick-ass gaming system with the ecosystem I prefer and exclusives that interest me that also does a lot of other cool stuff to boot. And if there's a PS4 exclusive that makes me feel like I'm missing out on something, I'll pick one of those up too. Kinda feel that way right now with The Last Of Us, which has been the only PS3 game thus far that makes me regret not having one (though I'd have to get a third-party controller... because my hands and DualShock 3 don't play nice).
I totally get where you are coming from but my view point is a bit different. I see the XB1 as a machine of lost potential. I am a gamer and want to best gaming machine possible. MS has instead put together a box that could have been so much better and instead took that potential and put it in a device that doesn't seem to have much "ground breaking" use. The One could have been THE Gaming Box to Rule All Others but instead they built a machine that just does enough. It's disappointing because I'd really like to see what MS could do, with all the magical tools at their disposal, in creating a $400 box tailored toward me, the hard core gamer. That would be a box I'd buy Day One, no hesitation.
post #6806 of 14775
Maybe they are not using BT so they can sell all new peripherals to every new owner. MS loves their proprietary connectors and connections, much like Apple and the reasons behind the non standard standards seem to be lacking in real world use.
post #6807 of 14775
The WII U is using BT 4.0 but the PS4 is still using Bluetooth 2.1 EDR.

So any of the power saving, range or LAG advances that 4 would have brought are not there.
post #6808 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by samendolaro View Post

The WII U is using BT 4.0 but the PS4 is still using Bluetooth 2.1 EDR.

So any of the power saving, range or LAG advances that 4 would have brought are not there.

I don't ever recall having an issue with battery life, range or lag on any of the current wireless controllers.
post #6809 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufcraig21 View Post

I totally get where you are coming from but my view point is a bit different. I see the XB1 as a machine of lost potential. I am a gamer and want to best gaming machine possible. MS has instead put together a box that could have been so much better and instead took that potential and put it in a device that doesn't seem to have much "ground breaking" use. The One could have been THE Gaming Box to Rule All Others but instead they built a machine that just does enough. It's disappointing because I'd really like to see what MS could do, with all the magical tools at their disposal, in creating a $400 box tailored toward me, the hard core gamer. That would be a box I'd buy Day One, no hesitation.
I get that... but the reality is that catering only to hardcore gamers = financial suicide. The hardcore are no longer the majority buyers of consoles, so they have to bring both camps into the fold. Giving it more uses than just gaming ensures more sales. And the real hardcore gamers are on PC, where they can pimp their rigs out as much as they want. As far as the living room goes, it also becomes a matter of diminishing returns. Your target render is 1080p at this point, so once you've allocated enough resources for pretty capable 1080p gameplay, it makes sense to use the remaining resources for other things. It also makes sense to utilize some of those resources for things that will bring the casual gamers in, like Kinect 2.

So again, I get that it isn't necessarily what you want in this theoretical design-by-committee world the internet has created. But it's a pretty capable gaming console that also does a lot of other stuff that people do in their living rooms. And if you're looking for hardcore gaming at under $500, I assure you that you can cobble together a PC that will stomp both PS4 and Xbox One in specs.
post #6810 of 14775
Quote:
Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

Every little bit does count. I've always played wired because the latency is noticeable and this new standard won't change that (for me). And I agree with what you're saying. Unless they have some plan for input devices that we haven't thought of, 24mbps is overkill. Maybe the licensing fees were a consideration? Bluetooth is a common standard but it isn't open source.

I'm sure r&d costs on a new wireless spec dwarf those licensing fees. But on the flip side, now they're the ones that get to charge the licensing fees. I'm sure it works out for them financially in the end, I bet the amount of people turned away by this kind of thing is small.
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