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The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 58

post #1711 of 2266
Why is EVERYBODY who can't hear the difference between "this" and "that" always resort to "show me a blind test"? You can't tell the difference? Good, you can save your money.
post #1712 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

My intent wasn't to compare sound quality. They both can drive 500 watts to the speakers. He was acting like it can't. I don't get to play with as many receivers as you, but I don't hear much difference in my 773 and my denon 4311. Especially with an external amp. Seriously. Show me a blind test where someone can pick out an A5000 from a 3030, 2030 or even 1030. The 773 is really only one level below that with a power supply 81% as big as all three of the Aventage. They all can control as much external power as the A5000 though.

I don't think your argument is a bad one but I would suggest you listen to an A5000 and 3030 if you can. Then you could make the best decision.

When I had my Onkyo AVR I used RCA to my 5 channel amp to power my front three as I bi-amped my mains and let the AVR power the surrounds and I was happy.

I always wanted to go XLR to the amp (if there was a benefit or not, just to say I tried it) and I'm happy I did. My new speakers cannot be bi-amp'd so it freed up the channels on my amp and I went for it.

I definitely notice a fuller sound by doing so. I guess I am noticing the db bump that XLR gives you.
post #1713 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by dryeye View Post

I am strongly considering the CX-A5000 to replace my current Lexicon MC12HD and would like to know if the CX-A5000 can do the following.

1) Reuse the video from a HDMI signal as the video for another input which will use audio that is not from this same HDMI signal?

Example: Say input 1 is from the cable box and uses HDMI for both audio and video. Input 2 is from a cd/dvd player and uses HDMI for both audio and video but also can supply SPDIF or coaxial audio output from this player. I want to watch the catv picture while listening to an audio cd. So I would choose and REUSE the input 1 HDMI as video source for input 2 and pair that with either the SPDIF or coaxial out of the cd/dvd player as audio for input 2. I have done this for years on my Lexicon MC12HD preamp and know this cannot be done on the Marantz 8801 or the Onkyo 80.3 units. A real disapointment since the Lexicon was designed over a decade ago.

2) If not, can the CX-A5000 take the component video from the cable box and the SPDIF/COAXIAL audio from the cd/dvd player and output this combination on HDMI? A messy work around to get desired results involving more wires and video conversion but would work. I think it can be done this way but can it be comfirmed please?

3) Is the equalizer portion of the CX-A5000 seperate from the YPAO ? I would like to create a universal house curve to be overlaid on the YPAO results.

4) How many bands of EQ are available?

5) Sort of related to item 1 above. I want to listen to a cd and compare 2 soundfields with 1 button push.
Can I set up input 3 and 4 identically except for the soundfield choice?

You can check all this in the manual, but...

1) One way to do this (and there may be other ways) is to connect the optical audio out from your CD player to AV1, then you can use Audio Select to say you want to use audio from optical with video from the cable box (HDMI 1). Audio Select is something that can be stored per "scene", so you can use the scene buttons to switch between them easily.

2) Yes you can do this as well.

3) and 4) YPAO uses the same parametric equalizer that you can set manually. 7 bands of EQ per channel (4 for the sub). If YPAO is not using all the bands (which is likely) then you can use the spare ones to add your own effects. Or use the tone controls (bass/treble) and/or subwoofer level since they are separate.

5) Each scene can store your choice of sound field. It's better to get used to switching inputs via scenes, rather than explicitly selecting an input.
post #1714 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar75 View Post


The 3030 vs 5000 comparison is still not quite apples to apples. 3030 only has 7.2 pre-outs (unbalanced). Also, the 3030 is only power rated for 2 channels driven at 8 ohms. Fit and finish is not as good as the 5000. 3030 runs hotter due to internal amp.

 

LOL, huh...?

 

:confused:

post #1715 of 2266
And here we go with the normal avs bull! Just buy what you want and be happy with it. All this validating your purchase crap is a waste of time.
Edited by llang269 - 2/26/14 at 7:50pm
post #1716 of 2266
Does anyone know what the voltages are of the preouts for the RX-A3030? For those that are thinking of using the 3030 as a preamp might want to check that. If you get a chance to read the audioholics review in the measurement section they talk about this subject. On the CX-A5000 they are 4 Vrms on the unbalanced outputs and 8 Vrms on the balanced ones.
post #1717 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Why is EVERYBODY who can't hear the difference between "this" and "that" always resort to "show me a blind test"? You can't tell the difference? Good, you can save your money.
The only reason I say a blind test is because when you install and calibrate a receiver the room and speakers are always different. You are not just comparing the performance of the receiver. Of course more expensive hardware usually will sound better than cheaper hardware. The real test is how much better. Unless the listening comparison is done in the same scenario, there are too many other factors that sway the judgment.

Calibration and eq smoothing are important, yet almost every professional review of every brand/model level the reviewer prefers the eq computer turned off for music. I don't turn mine off, but the experts do. It is hard to set up a blind test, but it is the only fair way to judge the audio quality difference. When I swap out different receivers in the same room with the same speakers and the same amps it comes fairly close to that. My original point was really just that receivers can output the same external power as the pre-pro. Even the ultra cheap receiver with preamp out can use the exact same amps. If the pre/pro costs 5 times as much does it sound 5 times better? Of course not. Is it 1%, 5%, 10% better? That is the complicated question. Hard to even measure/judge the amount of difference.
post #1718 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar75 View Post

Still don't get it. Why buy a receiver with pre-outs in the first place? Dead end street. Been there done that. IMHO if you think you will EVER use external amps get a prepro and separate amp from the gitgo. You will save money in the long run and you will have total separation between signal processing and signal amplification leading to less problems and a better system overall.

"you will save money in the long run"..."leading to less problems"..."a better system".

None of the above quoted statements are accurate. Can you show an example of money saved when purchasing a Pre-Pro and a separate power amplifer vs a comparable receiver? Is there any proof that one will have less problems with separates? A better system in what regard?
post #1719 of 2266
blah blah blah! If you dont think so? Just buy what you want!!
post #1720 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by llang269 View Post

blah blah blah! If you dont think so? Just buy what you want!!

...and I do enjoy a little bit of both worlds.
post #1721 of 2266
My RX-A 3030 lately shuts off then turns back on again? Anyone experience this? It is connected to my Samsung UN65F9000 Connect One Box thru ARC HDMI.

Also when off the HDMI 4 Icon is shown in red on the receiver
post #1722 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post

BTW, the NEC code did convert into what looks like a proper Pronto code:


0000 006D 0022 0002 0155 00AA 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 05ED 0155 0055 0015 0E47

So I guess I'll have to give it a try. smile.gif

Here are 3 pronto codes relating to network that work.

Input Net
0000 006D 0022 0002 0157 00AC 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0689 0157 0056 0015 0E94

Network - Radio
0000 006D 0022 0002 0157 00AC 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0689 0157 0056 0015 0E94

Network - PC Server
0000 006D 0022 0002 0157 00AC 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0689 0157 0056 0015 0E94

Hope they help if you haven't already solved.
post #1723 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by bad1550 View Post

My RX-A 3030 lately shuts off then turns back on again? Anyone experience this? It is connected to my Samsung UN65F9000 Connect One Box thru ARC HDMI.

Also when off the HDMI 4 Icon is shown in red on the receiver
The power thing probably has to do with HDMI Control and ARC being on. Try turning them off.
The Icon shows when the receiver is off? Or when the tv is off and receiver is on? Does it flash or is it steady? Does just "HDMI" light up or "HDMI IN"?
post #1724 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

The power thing probably has to do with HDMI Control and ARC being on. Try turning them off.
The Icon shows when the receiver is off? Or when the tv is off and receiver is on? Does it flash or is it steady? Does just "HDMI" light up or "HDMI IN"?

It is a steady red icon, not flashing. The icon shows when the receiver and tv are both off. (sorry the Icon reads "Zone 4" in red) My setup only includes the basic 5.1 setup.

Thx
post #1725 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelp2005 View Post

Here are 3 pronto codes relating to network that work.

Input Net
0000 006D 0022 0002 0157 00AC 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0689 0157 0056 0015 0E94

Network - Radio
0000 006D 0022 0002 0157 00AC 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0689 0157 0056 0015 0E94

Network - PC Server
0000 006D 0022 0002 0157 00AC 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0040 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0689 0157 0056 0015 0E94

Hope they help if you haven't already solved.

Thanks, but I already had these (got the NEC codes from Yamaha and converted them via the web site I posted some ways back). The piece that I was missing was the fact that the PC entry that I had was the same as the the Server entry that I was looking for (the listing that I got didn't mention that). Now that I've been informed of that I should be good to go.
post #1726 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

And I have a few pro amps with rca jacks that do 500 watts per channel.


And you are not using them? Why? Already owning separate amps is even more reason to use a dedicated prepro if you can afford it.
post #1727 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by bad1550 View Post

My RX-A 3030 lately shuts off then turns back on again? Anyone experience this? It is connected to my Samsung UN65F9000 Connect One Box thru ARC HDMI.

Also when off the HDMI 4 Icon is shown in red on the receiver


I am not using the ARC on my UN65F9000. I found that it made HDMI handshakes easier and it let the other components remain static.
post #1728 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar75 View Post

I am not using the ARC on my UN65F9000. I found that it made HDMI handshakes easier and it let the other components remain static.

I have 2 RX-A3010 receivers and 1 CX-A5000 prepro thorughout the house, HDMI CEC and ARC disabled on all three, and I have not had a single issue in 2 years. HDMI CEC and ARC are issues affecting just about every manufacturer out there. Unless every piece in the HDMI chain is by the same manufacturer they won't provide much support as they tend to pass the tech issue buck to the other companies piece of equipment in the chain. I would look into a universal remote control that can do MACROS like the UR-MX series. It is far easier to program a remote to turn things off and on in order, and on the plus side you can program time delays between each command. Here is an example of how my system turns on;

TV Power
10 Second delay
CX-A5000
10 Second delay
Trigger 1 on
30 Second delay (this give the ATI AT amp time to come on)
Trigger 2 on
30 second delay (this fives the second ATI AT amp time to come on)
peripheral device on (ie oppo, cable box, htpc etc

One buttom "off" on the remote does the same thing in reverse all be it turning everything off.
post #1729 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

I have 2 RX-A3010 receivers and 1 CX-A5000 prepro thorughout the house, HDMI CEC and ARC disabled on all three, and I have not had a single issue in 2 years. HDMI CEC and ARC are issues affecting just about every manufacturer out there. Unless every piece in the HDMI chain is by the same manufacturer they won't provide much support as they tend to pass the tech issue buck to the other companies piece of equipment in the chain. I would look into a universal remote control that can do MACROS like the UR-MX series. It is far easier to program a remote to turn things off and on in order, and on the plus side you can program time delays between each command. Here is an example of how my system turns on;

TV Power
10 Second delay
CX-A5000
10 Second delay
Trigger 1 on
30 Second delay (this give the ATI AT amp time to come on)
Trigger 2 on
30 second delay (this fives the second ATI AT amp time to come on)
peripheral device on (ie oppo, cable box, htpc etc

One buttom "off" on the remote does the same thing in reverse all be it turning everything off.

I do a similar thing with my Pronto remotes and my systems. May not be as convenient/automatic, but it puts you in control. wink.gif
post #1730 of 2266
Seems like an awfully long total delay.
post #1731 of 2266
The delay is more for the amps than anything else. The ATI amps have a soft start circuit built in that allows the amps to slowly charge there capacitators before fully turning on (keeps the inrush current down) which takes 30 seconds so I just add the time buffer between the amps connected to the triggers so one amp is done fully turning on before the other one fires up. Looking at my panamax units display connected to the same outlets (amps are not going through the panamax units BTW) the total draw of current to get the amps fully on is less than .5 amps. It may take a bit but i am limited on circuits to plug all my equipment into and this helps alleviate any issues. Hopefully this summer I will be able to have an electrician come out and run 3 additional 20 amp circuits.
post #1732 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar75 View Post

And you are not using them? Why? Already owning separate amps is even more reason to use a dedicated prepro if you can afford it.
All my speakers use soft dome tweeters. They would melt and my ears would explode with that much power. I do have more realistic amps like
5 x 200 watt and 7 x 100 watt, but even my cheaper receivers play super loud without the external amps. I only buy receivers that do have full
preamp out just in case. Now subwoofer different story. I do run massive power class d to those.

I am ready to use xlr, but my longest run is to the subwoofer. The A5000 won't even do that. Other than that a very fine unit. Yamaha is my favorite brand of receiver, but the power supply's are weak. The 3030 is only 490 watts. My denon 4311 was cheaper and has 780 watts (60% more). The only thing missing is dual hdmi output feeds. Only because it is 4 years old. Receiver preouts bench test so clean hard to justify the price of any pre/pro for me.
post #1733 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post


The 3030 is only 490 watts. 

 

Huh?

 

:confused:

post #1734 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post

All my speakers use soft dome tweeters. They would melt and my ears would explode with that much power. I do have more realistic amps like
5 x 200 watt and 7 x 100 watt, but even my cheaper receivers play super loud without the external amps. I only buy receivers that do have full
preamp out just in case. Now subwoofer different story. I do run massive power class d to those.

I am ready to use xlr, but my longest run is to the subwoofer. The A5000 won't even do that. Other than that a very fine unit. Yamaha is my favorite brand of receiver, but the power supply's are weak. The 3030 is only 490 watts. My denon 4311 was cheaper and has 780 watts (60% more). The only thing missing is dual hdmi output feeds. Only because it is 4 years old. Receiver preouts bench test so clean hard to justify the price of any pre/pro for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post

Huh?

confused.gif

Is this power consumption, or rated continuous power out? Rather meaningless comparison w/o some details.

As for XLR to the subwoofers, all I can say is that the run to my subwoofers is almost 50 feet. This is with my CX-A5000 and I'm using directional RCA cables for these connections...not sure if that makes a difference or not, but it's what I have. I don't notice/hear any noise, hum or other disturbance/distractions from this arrangement. It would have been nice if they had included XLR connections on the CX-A5000, but I would have had to revert to RCA line level at the subwoofers anyway (my subwoofers don't have XLR inputs). Certainly not an issue or deal breaker for me. BTW my subs are Definitive Technology Trinity Signatures.
post #1735 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar75 View Post

Still don't get it. Why buy a receiver with pre-outs in the first place? Dead end street. Been there done that. IMHO if you think you will EVER use external amps get a prepro and separate amp from the gitgo. You will save money in the long run and you will have total separation between signal processing and signal amplification leading to less problems and a better system overall.
One other point to make here is that Yamaha AVRs have always had notoriously weak voltage output from their pre-amp sections, and can't drive many external amps to their full rated output (this is VERY important). Whereas the CX-A5000 surround processor (or any other surround processor I can think of) has higher output voltage from it's pre-outs (RCAs, or XLRs), and can drive ANY amp to its full output.

Another consideration is that a separate preamp & amp also separates the two power supplies, which can have a significant noise reduction benefit.
post #1736 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post

Huh?

confused.gif
The most expensive part in a receiver is the power supply. So in many ways it is the most important part.
Once you try to exceed the maximum power output either the sound quality degrades or the receiver will
go into protection and turn off. Some brands put the specs of the power supply on the website or in the pdf
brochure. Yamaha knows their power supply's are small compared to the competition so they hide the specs.

You have to download the manual and go back to the specifications area. At the end of that is the general area.
That is where the total power (supply size) is listed. Not all these watts are available for the sound output. Some
of this is used for the display, hdmi board and everything else. The rest (about 2/3 to 3/4) of the total watts are
for powering the speakers. Except for the A5000 Yamaha only uses three power supply's.
490 watts(3030,2030,1030) 400 watts (830 down to 675) and 270 watts (575 and below).

The higher end denon and Marantz use about 670/700 watt power supply's and the 4311/4520 use 780 watt
power supply's. When powering speakers near maximum performance these numbers matter. This doesn't
apply so much with receivers with class d amps like pioneer sc models. They don't need as big of power supply.

Here are bench tests of the 3 levels of Yamaha and the total power output difference (approximate #'s).

High level (490 watts)
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-a1020-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Mid level (400 watts)
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-a730-network-av-receiver-test-bench
Low level (270 watts)
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-v475-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

The size of the power supply has a direct effect on maximum watts per channel 5 or 7 channels driven
and the actual cost of manufacture. Compacitors are cheap. Dacs are even cheaper.

Check out the specs of the denon 4520. 780 watt power supply. 60% more total power than the 3030.
These numbers are also on the back of every receiver.

Another quick check shows my upa-7 external amplifier has a 1700 watt power supply and the xpa-5
has a 1800 watt power supply. Mega power.
Edited by kikkenit2 - 2/27/14 at 4:26pm
post #1737 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Norseman View Post


One other point to make here is that Yamaha AVRs have always had notoriously weak voltage output from their pre-amp sections, and can't drive many external amps to their full rated output (this is VERY important). 

 

 

I suggest you look at the professional reviews of the 3030 - they state the exact opposite - from what I remember...

 

:p

post #1738 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post

I suggest you look at the professional reviews of the 3030 - they state the exact opposite - from what I remember...

tongue.gif
Compare the specs.
And many other testers support the fact that Yamaha AVRs are known for weak voltage outputs from their pre-outs, (much better with their surround processor, the CX-A5000).
That's why when pairing a Yamaha AVR with an external amplifier, its best to choose an amplifier with a gain of 32db or so (vs. the THX standard of 29db).
Otherwise you may not be getting full output. Better? Yeah. Full output? Not likely. rolleyes.gif

Don't get me wrong, I've always loved Yamaha AVRs and their new separates too, its just that their AVRs have some points/differences that potential users need to be aware of...low pre-out voltage output, and smaller power supply sizes. These can be compensated for in other ways.
post #1739 of 2266
I guess we'll need to stop making jokes about people who just place all the 5 speakers for their surround setup at the front of the room:

The first announced (and cheapest) of the 2014 Yamaha AVRs (RX-V_77), the RX-V377 (Yamaha Japan link), includes a new technology Virtual CINEMA FRONT which does just that--with the Front Left, Surround Left, Center, Surround Right, and Front Right speakers lined up in a row like some "build-your-own Soundbar"!



The RX-V377 is only a 5.1 AVR. It will be interesting to see what kind of Virtual CINEMA FRONT soundscape a 7.1 AVR might deliver when a (real) Front Left|Right Presence speaker pair is added.


There doesn't seem to be any mention of which version of HDMI is used in the RX-V377. Perhaps future Press Releases for the remaining not-yet-quite-announced Yamaha low|mid-priced 2014 AVRs might be more forthcoming...?
  • RX-A740, RX-A840
  • RX-V477, RX-V577, RX-V677, RX-V777
  • TSR-5770
  • HTR-4067, HTR-5067
_
Edited by SoundChex - 3/1/14 at 9:24am
post #1740 of 2266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Norseman View Post

Compare the specs.
And many other testers support the fact that Yamaha AVRs are known for weak voltage outputs from their pre-outs, (much better with their surround processor, the CX-A5000).
That's why when pairing a Yamaha AVR with an external amplifier, its best to choose an amplifier with a gain of 32db or so (vs. the THX standard of 29db).
Otherwise you may not be getting full output. Better? Yeah. Full output? Not likely. rolleyes.gif

Don't get me wrong, I've always loved Yamaha AVRs and their new separates too, its just that their AVRs have some points/differences that potential users need to be aware of...low pre-out voltage output, and smaller power supply sizes. These can be compensated for in other ways.

This low voltage myth is simply not true. Yamaha RX-A1010 has been tested to produce 2.8Vrms from pre-outs before clipping. It can comfortably drive the majority of external power amps to rated output. Pre-out voltage is not provided in any of Yamaha receiver specs, but all newer Aventage receivers should have no problems driving external amps. THX spec gain is perfectly fine, no need for 32dB. I certainly confirmed it with RX-A830 and Parasound Halo A23.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread