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The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 12

post #331 of 2277
Just out of curiosity, what are owners honest appraisals of 1/3 of the unit being plastic/acrylic? Usually I could care very little about how an avr/pre looks but I have to say this look is a huge step down, imo.

Perhaps I'd feel differently if it were real glass or crystal, but the plastic- at least on the higher end Aventage avrs I've bore witness too- looks so cheap...especially considering how relatively small the display is. Certainly not something I'd expect on a $2-$3,000 component.

I can appreciate the desire to differentiate, but sometimes it's not always for the better. I guess I'm just thinking this...



looks a bit more high end than




this.

Not trying to bash, just wondering. Perhaps the 5000 appears more refined in person?

EDIT: didn't mean to make the 5000 appear smaller, I didn't easily find a larger image of it.

thanks

James
post #332 of 2277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Thanks and while I think I found the post you're speaking of I didn't find anything re how YPAO calibrates the sub...perhaps I missed it. It seems others since that post have commented how it does little in that regard so perhaps it still does not execute a comprehensive sub calibration like audyssey. My hope was that the flagship PRE might go further than the AVRs.

thanks

James

Outside of the extra DSP modes and DAC filter, the functionality of the AVR and pre amp are identical.

I will try and run a cal with my Antimode in bypass and measure.

As it stands now YPAO did nothing to my sub, which means it didn't try to add eq on top of the 8033c.
Edited by FilmMixer - 8/8/13 at 11:52am
post #333 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post

Yeah, I kinda wondered why Yamaha didn't provide XLR outputs for the subs. In my case though, I probably wouldn't have used them anyway since my subs don't have XLR inputs.

I have also wondered that myselft and do have an opinion. My belief is that there are just not enough subs out there with XLR inputs on the market to warrant the extra XLR jacks on the pre-amp. Now I realize makers like Rythmik, HSU and others do have subs with XLR inputs in these cases those are either special order or priced outside the average consumer range. I do like haveing the dedicated XLR inputs though and would rather have those than sub outputs. My previous pre-amp a B&K 50 SII did have the best of both worlds and in fact had two pairs of dedicated XLR inputs and both RCA and XLR sub outputs. Some subs I found online had both types of inputs with dials that let you change the attenuation level between types and to me that is a nice feature.

One question for you BWillcox or Filmmixer, is on page 93 the manual states you can select an audio type input for use with the currently selected HDMI input and as an option one of these selections is Analog(XLR). When I went to use this setting and assign it to a dedicated HDMI input on the A5000 to use the XLR jacks from my Oppo it only gave me the option of Analog. Do you think the unit is smart enough to default to the XLR input jacks in this scenario? This is one of the first things I plan on testing tonight in my second round of "playing" with the new unit.
post #334 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

...

Not trying to bash, just wondering. Perhaps the 5000 appears more refined in person?

EDIT: didn't mean to make the 5000 appear smaller, I didn't easily find a larger image of it.

thanks

James

I think that the the CX-A5000 looks the way it does so that it is easily identified as a member of the Aventage line. This seems to be simply a design decision to me. Also, which looks best is mostly subjective. I find the look of the Denon not to be more refined, but more stodgy. smile.gif
post #335 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Just out of curiosity, what are owners honest appraisals of 1/3 of the unit being plastic/acrylic? Usually I could care very little about how an avr/pre looks but I have to say this look is a huge step down, imo.

Perhaps I'd feel differently if it were real glass or crystal, but the plastic- at least on the higher end Aventage avrs I've bore witness too- looks so cheap...especially considering how relatively small the display is. Certainly not something I'd expect on a $2-$3,000 component.

I can appreciate the desire to differentiate, but sometimes it's not always for the better. I guess I'm just thinking this...



looks a bit more high end than




this.

Not trying to bash, just wondering. Perhaps the 5000 appears more refined in person?

EDIT: didn't mean to make the 5000 appear smaller, I didn't easily find a larger image of it.

thanks

James

Yamaha it's not made of plastic, it's all alluminium, and i think the quality is more compared to Denon Pre/Pro AVP+ POA, not their integrated flagship.

Besides the yamaha set can come in GOLD COLOR ...... SO NICE wink.gif
post #336 of 2277
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

One question for you BWillcox or Filmmixer, is on page 93 the manual states you can select an audio type input for use with the currently selected HDMI input and as an option one of these selections is Analog(XLR). When I went to use this setting and assign it to a dedicated HDMI input on the A5000 to use the XLR jacks from my Oppo it only gave me the option of Analog. Do you think the unit is smart enough to default to the XLR input jacks in this scenario? This is one of the first things I plan on testing tonight in my second round of "playing" with the new unit.

I think you need to plug the Oppo into HDMI 4. Then select Analog.
post #337 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I think you need to plug the Oppo into HDMI 4. Then select Analog.

That is what I was thinking and that is how I have it setup at the moment. I will give it a try when I get home and let everyone know if it is a specific setting only available for that HDMI port.

Thanks FilmMixer
post #338 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

My Pioneer Susano already makes all those DSP Modes since 2008...Lol

2008? Yamaha have been adding DSP programs to their units since 1985.
post #339 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuenMuner View Post

2008? Yamaha have been adding DSP programs to their units since 1985.

I said i have those DSP modes in my Pioneer since 2008, i don't know how many years Pioneer has those modes also but probably from that time also or even before.
I never liked Yamaha, but these Pre Pro are calling my attention, but in what respects to Home Theater Denon and Pioneer are better references than Yamaha, in fact Denon started it all.
I don't have a clue about Yamaha detail,dynamics and power (the Pioneer Susano has 200 watts per channel, and 248watts measured in reality), and probably the SC-LX90 from 2008 kicks the ass of these Pre Pro....who knows?!
Anyways i see these units as a possible upgrade....
Edited by MV_Cinema - 8/8/13 at 1:42pm
post #340 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

I said i have those DSP modes in my Pioneer since 2008, i don't know how many years Pioneer has those modes also but probably from that time also or even before.
I never liked Yamaha, but these Pre Pro are calling my attention, but in what respects to Home Theater Denon and Pioneer are better references than Yamaha, in fact Denon started it all.
I don't have a clue about Yamaha detail,dynamics and power (the Pioneer Susano has 200 watts per channel, and 248watts measured in reality), and probably the SC-LX90 from 2008 kicks the ass of these Pre Pro....who knows?!
Anyways i see these units as a possible upgrade....

Well Yamaha pioneered DSP for music, and as I recall it was the first to offer anything specifically tailored/designed for music. Pioneer, Sony and others were late to the party in this field. For movies, I believe Dolby was first there from what I remember.
post #341 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

I said i have those DSP modes in my Pioneer since 2008, i don't know how many years Pioneer has those modes also but probably from that time also or even before.
I never liked Yamaha, but these Pre Pro are calling my attention, but in what respects to Home Theater Denon and Pioneer are better references than Yamaha, in fact Denon started it all.
I don't have a clue about Yamaha detail,dynamics and power (the Pioneer Susano has 200 watts per channel, and 248watts measured in reality), and probably the SC-LX90 from 2008 kicks the ass of these Pre Pro....who knows?!
Anyways i see these units as a possible upgrade....

Denon started it all? You mean multi channel separates? Yamaha did it in 1991:

http://audio-heritage.jp/YAMAHA/amp/avc-3000dsp.html

http://audio-heritage.jp/YAMAHA/amp/avm-3000.html
post #342 of 2277
Nice pieces... But still what matters here is performance, and to be honnest i only know Denon and Pionner on this competition...never heard Yamaha...

As for others like Theta, Krell and Datasat they are in a different dimension....not comparable....
post #343 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Its good to know that some users use Klipsch.
My current setup is:

- Pioneer SC-LX90
- Klipsch RF-7II (Front)
- Klipsch RC-64II (Center)
- Klipsch RF-82II (Back Surrounds)
- Klipsch SW-115 (Subwoofer)

Sometimes i feel the speakers need more amplifier, i don't know if this yamaha set will give me more power and detail. I only use 5.1, and in a weak 5.2 with SVS PB13 Ultra Subwoofer.
Any help?

I'm a Klipsch / Yamaha user. I have RB 61's for the L & R and RC 52 for the center. Yes, the dialogue was a bit ''bright'' for my tastes so the dropped the angle of the center channel speaker down a little from ear height and all is well.
post #344 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Nice pieces... But still what matters here is performance, and to be honnest i only know Denon and Pionner on this competition...never heard Yamaha...

As for others like Theta, Krell and Datasat they are in a different dimension....not comparable....

Yes I get it now, Pioneer is better than Yamaha, Yamaha is the new kid in town.

Just in case you have been living under a rock, Yamaha have been making hi-end hi-fi components since the mid-1970s. And NONE(yes none)of the brands you mentioned had stuff like these:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-MX-10000.html

http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-101M.html
post #345 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuenMuner View Post

Yes I get it now, Pioneer is better than Yamaha, Yamaha is the new kid in town.

Just in case you have been living under a rock, Yamaha have been making hi-end hi-fi components since the mid-1970s. And NONE(yes none)of the brands you mentioned had stuff like these:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-MX-10000.html

http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-101M.html

Don't get me wrong but this discussion is becoming very interesting because you know what you are talking about and i am an everyday learner and there is somenting i didn't know.

By the way, if i drive a 5.2 system like i do how many watts per channel can i take out of the MX-A5000? I think its not possible to bridge but Bi-Amp yes.

My speakers work at 8omhs.
post #346 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

if i drive a 5.2 system like i do how many watts per channel can i take out of the MX-A5000?

No one has bought the MX-A5000 yet on this forum, I would love to see a deep, detailed professional review of this amp as well.
post #347 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuenMuner View Post

No one has bought the MX-A5000 yet on this forum, I would love to see a deep, detailed professional review of this amp as well.

At Yamaha website is a bit confusing, they say 150watts at 8 omhs, but i guess that applies if you drive all the 11 channels. In my case i use only 5 channels, i don't know, but if it is like the Pioneer it drives at 200watts with 5 channels....
post #348 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

At Yamaha website is a bit confusing, they say 150watts at 8 omhs, but i guess that applies if you drive all the 11 channels. In my case i use only 5 channels, i don't know, but if it is like the Pioneer it drives at 200watts with 5 channels....

I'd really be surprised if the MX-A5000 will drive all 11 channels at 150 watts. Indeed, they specifically state: 150 W per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.06% THD, 2 ch driven). In order to drive all 11 channels would require more input power from the AC line than is available from a single outlet. For example, my Outlaw Audio 7900, which is rated at 300 wps with all channels driven, requires two separate AC power connections from different 15A circuits.

Your Pioneer, being a Class D amp, is likely more efficient than these Class A/B amplifiers so probably just squeaks by with 5 channels at 200 wps from a single AC line.
post #349 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

At Yamaha website is a bit confusing, they say 150watts at 8 omhs, but i guess that applies if you drive all the 11 channels. In my case i use only 5 channels, i don't know, but if it is like the Pioneer it drives at 200watts with 5 channels....

The power consumption of this amp is 650w, so it probably won't be able to output 150w at all 11 channels driven. How much power will it be able to produce to 5 channels is a mystery at this point. Again I would love to see a full review first before judging on its true power output.
post #350 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

At Yamaha website is a bit confusing, they say 150watts at 8 omhs, but i guess that applies if you drive all the 11 channels. In my case i use only 5 channels, i don't know, but if it is like the Pioneer it drives at 200watts with 5 channels....

Its rating into 8 Ohms is 150w x 2 channels driven.
But it seems to have a heftier power supply that the comparably rated AVR ('3030), so would do better than the AVR with all channels driven - but I seriously doubt it would put out more than 50w or 60w with all 11 channels going at once...
The CX-A5000 seems like a really nice surround processor though (and I think it looks better than the Denon above BTW...), but buyers are much better off with a more powerful amplifier than the MX-A5000 to match it with IMO.
The same amp money can be much better spent elsewhere I'd say...rolleyes.gif
post #351 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Don't get me wrong but this discussion is becoming very interesting because you know what you are talking about and i am an everyday learner and there is somenting i didn't know.

By the way, if i drive a 5.2 system like i do how many watts per channel can i take out of the MX-A5000? I think its not possible to bridge but Bi-Amp yes.

My speakers work at 8omhs.

You are correct. Bi-amp yes and bridge, no. I was at a Yamaha training yesterday.
post #352 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Norseman View Post

Its rating into 8 Ohms is 150w x 2 channels driven.
But it seems to have a heftier power supply that the comparably rated AVR ('3030), so would do better than the AVR with all channels driven - but I seriously doubt it would put out more than 50w or 60w with all 11 channels going at once...
The CX-A5000 seems like a really nice surround processor though (and I think it looks better than the Denon above BTW...), but buyers are much better off with a more powerful amplifier than the MX-A5000 to match it with IMO.
The same amp money can be much better spent elsewhere I'd say...rolleyes.gif

If I go for it - I will power it with the Sunfire Cinema-Seven 7x400W.... yay :-D
post #353 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuenMuner View Post

The power consumption of this amp is 650w, so it probably won't be able to output 150w at all 11 channels driven. How much power will it be able to produce to 5 channels is a mystery at this point. Again I would love to see a full review first before judging on its true power output.

We can have an educated guess for the actual power.

Maximum power output can not be higher than max power consumption. Yamaha use class A/B, therefore the best case scenario, the efficiency is 50%. So the total power output of all channels deiven can't be more than 325 W. Divide that by 11 channels, then you'll get the best-case-scenario power rating.
post #354 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuenMuner View Post

The power consumption of this amp is 650w, so it probably won't be able to output 150w at all 11 channels driven. How much power will it be able to produce to 5 channels is a mystery at this point. Again I would love to see a full review first before judging on its true power output.

We can have an educated guess for the actual power.

Maximum power output can not be higher than max power consumption. Yamaha use class A/B, therefore the best case scenario, the efficiency is 50%. So the total power output of all channels deiven can't be more than 325 W. Divide that by 11 channels, then you'll get the best-case-scenario power rating.

The power consumption figures on the back panel and manufacturer data sheets are based on power levels defined by standards organizations which are only a fraction of maximum power.

Dividing this power by the number of channels will usually vastly understate the true potential power output of the amplifier.
post #355 of 2277
The power consumption for this power amp is actually not 650W (that's just average) the max power consumption with all channels driven, full spectrum at 10% THD is actually 1500W (shown in the documentation).
post #356 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The power consumption for this power amp is actually not 650W (that's just average) the max power consumption with all channels driven, full spectrum at 10% THD is actually 1500W (shown in the documentation).

wow, that's a useful spec - publish a power use when the amps are into full blown clipping distortion rolleyes.gif

every bench test measurement I've ever seen considers 1% the point at which harmful clipping starts to occur so it's kind of pointless for Yamaha to even put that in its manual...

...other than impressing uninformed buyers wink.gif

as far as (ahem) inflating this amp's capabilities, one glance at the transformer in the interior photo should be enough to get a rough idea of the real world power performance. there is not much chance that transformer is nearly big enough to drive all those channels to close to 100 watts, 7+ch driven, compared to what's in other multichannel amps/receivers. based on the visual space it occupies in the chassis, it certainly doesn't seem to be much, if any, larger than what's in any current top flagship receiver. so Yamaha's multitude of 1 & 2 channel, dynamic power, 6 ohm & 1 KHz ratings, are no different or better than any class A/B flagship receiver on the market, all of which have similar normal 650 watt or 750 - 850 VA power consumption specs.

1500 watts @ 10% (well into speaker-damaging clipping) is just window dressing to cloud innocent minds tongue.gif

and for the record, I am not dissing the amp or saying it's not a good choice. I'm saying publishing power use when amp output is highly distorted is bogus since no one in their right minds would want to drive any amp into 10% distortion. plus, I suspect Yamaha's protection circuitry would have kicked in by then, so the spec is useless & misleading marketing BS.

not even the lowest receivers have that kind of spec. IMHO, it doesn't belong on a company' s "flagship" product.
Edited by ss9001 - 8/9/13 at 8:17am
post #357 of 2277
Guess i will keep my Pioneer Susano and stop walking around, and when i upgrade it will be for the Krell...
I have an AV Amplifier that gives me 200 watts per channel, no way i am downgrading to Yamaha.
Edited by MV_Cinema - 8/9/13 at 1:58pm
post #358 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

(well into speaker-damaging clipping)

As an aside, I thought this was proven to be a myth? I thought clipping wasn't a danger unless the clipping was occurring because the speakers couldn't handle the output. I.e., speakers rated for 250w and you are trying to feed them 1500w. But if you have speakers that can handle 2000w and you feed it that 1500w event though it's severely distorted, then it should be ok. Right? Because clipping is just a square wave and there are plenty of sources that use such waves, techno being one of them.

Edit: By "it should be ok" refers to the speakers and not the amp since if you are pushing your amp that hard, you can expect your amp to not be very happy...
post #359 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

wow, that's a useful spec - publish a power use when the amps are into full blown clipping distortion rolleyes.gif

every bench test measurement I've ever seen considers 1% the point at which harmful clipping starts to occur so it's kind of pointless for Yamaha to even put that in its manual...

...other than impressing uninformed buyers wink.gif

as far as (ahem) inflating this amp's capabilities, one glance at the transformer in the interior photo should be enough to get a rough idea of the real world power performance. there is not much chance that transformer is nearly big enough to drive all those channels to close to 100 watts, 7+ch driven, compared to what's in other multichannel amps/receivers. based on the visual space it occupies in the chassis, it certainly doesn't seem to be much, if any, larger than what's in any current top flagship receiver. so Yamaha's multitude of 1 & 2 channel, dynamic power, 6 ohm & 1 KHz ratings, are no different or better than any class A/B flagship receiver on the market, all of which have similar normal 650 watt or 750 - 850 VA power consumption specs.

1500 watts @ 10% (well into speaker-damaging clipping) is just window dressing to cloud innocent minds tongue.gif

and for the record, I am not dissing the amp or saying it's not a good choice. I'm saying publishing power use when amp output is highly distorted is bogus since no one in their right minds would want to drive any amp into 10% distortion. plus, I suspect Yamaha's protection circuitry would have kicked in by then, so the spec is useless & misleading marketing BS.

not even the lowest receivers have that kind of spec. IMHO, it doesn't belong on a company' s "flagship" product.

Well, yes and no.

1. From the max power consumption spec, we can guesstimate an approximate of 65 wpc all ch driven at full spectrum with 1% THD or less.
2. Because the front presence and rear presence (4 channels) require much much much less power, more current will be available for the front 3 channels
3. Quite honestly in real-world application for a room about 12ft x 20ft with efficient speakers at 85dB/w/m even if only 65 wpc can be generated, it should be more than sufficient for normal use at full THX Select 2 Plus reference level.

The only part I dislike from the MX is that it doesn't actually list the power output in a clear manner which leads to guestimation...which I personally dislike but unfortunately a necessary evil in this case. frown.gif
post #360 of 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhongomz View Post

As an aside, I thought this was proven to be a myth? I thought clipping wasn't a danger unless the clipping was occurring because the speakers couldn't handle the output. I.e., speakers rated for 250w and you are trying to feed them 1500w. But if you have speakers that can handle 2000w and you feed it that 1500w event though it's severely distorted, then it should be ok. Right? Because clipping is just a square wave and there are plenty of sources that use such waves, techno being one of them.

Edit: By "it should be ok" refers to the speakers and not the amp since if you are pushing your amp that hard, you can expect your amp to not be very happy...
If you look at a scope and if clipping is occuring then the signal is no longer AC going from a nice wave pattern but a squared off plateau which is DC the longer this happens the more harm to both speakers and amp since neither were designed to operate in DC. Your ears should tell you something is dreadfully wrong before this gets critical.
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