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The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 24

post #691 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redoryx View Post

Does HDMI voltage out vary between brands/models?
Can the voltage out be changed in the RS-232

Not the voltage, but different HDMI devices may have different drive strengths, and hence differ in their ability to work with long cables. In your case the cable is probably marginal for the bandwidth you're using (it's more likely to fail at higher resolution). There's no user control over the HDMI drive strength.

If you can't change the cable you could try adding an HDMI switch close to the receiver (receiver -> switch -> existing long cable). The switch might drive the long cable better than the receiver (but then again it might not).
post #692 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuenMuner View Post

RX-Z7 is just as bad if not worse. Check out the lab result:

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-z7-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures


Well, the back of the 3030 claims 490 watts. If you divide that by 7 you get 70 watts/channel. That assumes 100% efficiency, so you'd need to adjust for efficiency which likely brings the power per channel into line with that of the Z7. As an aside, my Outlaw Audio 7900 7 channel power amp REQUIRES two separate 120V 15A circuits to power it. But then it's rated a 300 watts/ch, all channels driven. AVRs simply aren't in the same league/market.
post #693 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuenMuner View Post

RX-Z7 is just as bad if not worse. Check out the lab result:

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-z7-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures


Please don't use these types of All Channels Driven (ACD) measurements as representative of real-world listening. They can identify inferior equipment but this would not be consistent with Yamaha engineering. Audioholics completely debunked this test years ago in their The All Channels Driven (ACD) Amplifier Test essay.
Quote:
More often than not we see folks on our forums and other forum websites debating how powerful a particular amplifier or receiver is based upon a single test popularized by many print magazines and some online publications called the All Channels Driven (ACD) test. Debates rage on from folks that claim their amp or receiver is better because it delivers more power into ACD or that the manufacturers that produce products that don't deliver their rated power in this test condition are either deceptive or inferior. What consumers fail to realize is almost no multi channel amplifier that is rated beyond 150wpc can meet the ACD specification for continuous power delivery on real world AC power lines. Add to this the fact that program material, be it Movie or Music, never taxes all channels continuously at full power, regardless.

and from the conclusion:
Quote:
For more input on the ACD Test relevancy, we quote Michael Schenck - Power Electronics Design Engineer of APC AV.

APC AV: I don't agree with testing All Channels Driven - it is not a realistic measure of anything useful. There is no standard means of testing with no valid data to support its veracity. I've never seen any data that says an ACD test is similar to the power consumed by a kick drum or T-Rex. I feel it is important that an amp be capable of driving all the channels at 1/3 or 1/X power concurrently and continuously without overheating or blowing up.

Common sense requires that an amplifier be electrically capable of supplying enough power to satisfy musical and theatrical dynamics without clipping. Therefore, a peak rating with a foundation in reality is also important, I want to know the amp is capable of supplying continuous and peak power to the speakers when needed.

So the ACD is entirely invalid?

The answer to this question is a qualified "It depends." ACD can be thought of as a conditionally valid test to determine if an amplifier is capable of instantaneously consuming all of the power from the wall outlet. In the best case scenario, it can reveal the absolute capability of the amplifier's power supply. If the amp has a robust power supply then you will simply be testing for line voltage sag on an unregulated line up to the fuse limit of the amplifier.

The problem however (as documented in our previous article: The All Channels Driven Test Controversy) is that many budget products are designed for real world performance and must make trade offs for safety and heat dissipation reasons. As a result, they design their amps to be dynamic, but limit the total output capability of the product with a limiter that activates if more than three channels are driven at full power. The result of driving more than three channels at full power is reduced power delivery to all channels to satisfy the heat dissipation requirements of UL, as well as the manufacturer's requirements for dependability and reliability. Thus, when a publication does the classic ACD test into 5 or 7 channels, the reader can get the wrong impression that the amplifier isn't very capable at delivering power despite the fact it exceeds manufacturers specs with flying colors with only one or two channels driven continuously, and also satisfies the old FTC mandate for rating power into two channels.

The same person at Audioholics also performed a thorough review of the RX-Z7:
Quote:
Conclusion:

Although not quite as effortless sounding as my much more expensive reference separates rig when directly compared against it, not once during my evaluation did I find the amp sections of this receiver limited or strained like I did in a similarly priced competitor model I had on hand. The GUI, although a bit daunting at first glance, is pretty straight forward to navigate through. Yamaha has accounted for virtually every conceivable configuration option of all receiver parameters, included a memory bank of 10 settings to ensure the installer has the right tools to seamlessly slide this receiver into any system where it will serve as the center piece.

Armed to the teeth with all of the latest audio and video processing features, along with a host of multi room and networking capabilities, the RX-Z7 leaves little to be desired for even the most sophisticated home theater installs. Its ability to transform your listening space into a concert venue or mega Cineplex is unrivaled thanks to the powerful arsenal of DSP processing and multi speaker configuration capabilities coupled with a robust well designed amplifier section. With its very clever power amp assignability and music mode distribution, the RX-Z7 proved to be the ultimate multi channel / multi zone receiver capable of whole house entertainment. The RX-Z7 proudly lives up to the "Z" heritage and in some aspects out Z's their very own flagship RX-Z11.

Cheers.
post #694 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

Please don't use these types of All Channels Driven (ACD) measurements as representative of real-world listening. They can identify inferior equipment but this would not be consistent with Yamaha engineering. Audioholics completely debunked this test years ago in their The All Channels Driven (ACD) Amplifier Test essay.
and from the conclusion:
The same person at Audioholics also performed a thorough review of the RX-Z7:
Cheers.

Oh trust me, I've read that article before when they released it, the reason I posted that link was the guy in his post claimed 3030 is weaker than Z7 power wise, which isn't really the case.
post #695 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuenMuner View Post

RX-Z7 is just as bad if not worse. Check out the lab result:

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-z7-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures


YIKES!!!....and the MSRP on that unit was $2600!!....though I bought one when magnolia blew out all their non 3D capable units for $550

As I recall i liked it...not as much, sound wise, as the A3000 though

I sold the Z7 after 6 months and made few hundred dollars, over what I paid, as well...smile.gif

I wonder why manufacturers are not building receivers with the same type of robust amp section/power supplies they did a few years ago?

It wasn't too very long ago that there were several units that would do 130-140 WPC with 5 channels driven

Now...that seems to be separate amp territory exclusively


Warren
post #696 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

Please don't use these types of All Channels Driven (ACD) measurements as representative of real-world listening. They can identify inferior equipment but this would not be consistent with Yamaha engineering. Audioholics completely debunked this test years ago in their The All Channels Driven (ACD) Amplifier Test essay.
and from the conclusion:
The same person at Audioholics also performed a thorough review of the RX-Z7:
Cheers.

I have read that ...and similar before
A lot of it uses the argument of "real world...."...."power limiting for heat dissipation and product reliability..."..etc

Some of what I read makes me think it was just cheaper to build the product with something that they thought the mass market didnt need

Ok....that being said and understanding low distortion levels are equally as important

Why do many amp manufacturers still have products that will pass this test handily ?...I actually even have a couple of receivers that ..from I read will as well.....Pioneer Sc37 and Onkyo 875...as well as separate amp that will do 200x5 all channel driven

I may be naive..however some of this i liken to comparing a civic to a Corvette and saying.... do you really need that horse power in the real world?

Probably not...but there still is a big difference and it definitely does not go unnoticed

On another note .....the Z11 outperformed the Z7, amp wise, significantly

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-z11-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures



Warren
Edited by turnne1 - 10/21/13 at 5:39pm
post #697 of 2224

I picked up my RX-A1030 on last Friday, the 18th. While I am so far happy with virtually everything in comparison to the RX-V2500 it replaced, I have one major problem with the manual.

 

In the manual, it says to go into the Advanced Setup menu and set the speaker impedance to something other than 8-ohms if your speakers are 4 or 6 ohms before connecting speakers. My speakers are 6-ohms, and, of course, I did not read this part in the manual before I connected my speakers.

 

After having brought the receiver up for the first time and after having searched for this setting in the GUI, I then read this part in the manual. On trying to get into the Advanced Setup menu, I found that I could not. I pressed and held the Straight button then the Main Zone button as instructed, however, the unit would not go into Advanced Setup. I found nothing in the manual as to why it would not go into Advanced Setup.

 

To make the long story short, if the "Zone 2" indicator is lit in the display meaning that Zone 2 is on, the unit will not go into Advanced Setup. There is no reference to this in the manual that I could find.

 

Hopefully, this will save someone the trouble of trying to figure out why the unit will not go into Advanced Setup.

post #698 of 2224
It does mention that the receiver has to be Off to go into the Advanced Menu. If Zone 2 is lit the receiver is not Off.
post #699 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

It does mention that the receiver has to be Off to go into the Advanced Menu. If Zone 2 is lit the receiver is not Off.

 


What I read is that it has to be in standyby mode. Standby mode, according to the manual, is indicated when the red light next to the main zone button is on. When that is lit, the Zone 2 light can still be on. So, should the standby mode red light not be on when the Zone 2 indicator is on?

Also, call me picky, but it does not say in the manual that the unit is still on when Zone 2 is on. I still think, for the sake of clarity, that the manual should say that if Zone X is on, the unit cannot be put into Advanced Setup mode.
post #700 of 2224
Yes, the manual far from perfect.

Also most people with 6 ohm speakers leave it on the default 8 ohm setting.
post #701 of 2224
well, to be technically picky, if Zone 2 is on then the receiver can not be in "standby" mode, the receiver must be "on" for any of the zone to be powered. wink.gif
post #702 of 2224
So, the standby light should be off then. wink.gif
Edited by wiyosaya - 10/22/13 at 3:03pm
post #703 of 2224
Well, strictly speaking the manual doesn't say that the light next to the power button indicates that receiver is in standby mode. It says it indicates that its in standby mode and one four conditions listed in the manual (HDMI Control, Standby Through, Network Standby, iPod standby charging) is active. If none of these features are being used and all the zones are off then the receiver will be in standby mode, but the light will not turn on.

The main purpose of the light is to warn you that because one of these features is active the recevier is still using a fair amount of power despite appearing to be powered off, somewhere in the range of 2-5 watts. By comparison, when the receiver is in standby mode with the light off the receiver only uses a 0.3 watts power.
post #704 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

well, to be technically picky, if Zone 2 is on then the receiver can not be in "standby" mode, the receiver must be "on" for any of the zone to be powered. wink.gif
+1 That was my point.
post #705 of 2224

In my opinion, I still think the manual could be clearer. Instead of saying to put the unit in standby mode, to me, a clearer description would be something along the lines of power for all zones must be off to enter Advanced Setup.

post #706 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

...

Also most people with 6 ohm speakers leave it on the default 8 ohm setting.


Any particular reason for this?

post #707 of 2224
The 6 ohm setting doesn't drive 6 ohm speakers any better, it just limits the amount of power available. Here's one (overly) detailed article about it: http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1
post #708 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post

Well, the back of the 3030 claims 490 watts. If you divide that by 7 you get 70 watts/channel. That assumes 100% efficiency, so you'd need to adjust for efficiency which likely brings the power per channel into line with that of the Z7. As an aside, my Outlaw Audio 7900 7 channel power amp REQUIRES two separate 120V 15A circuits to power it. But then it's rated a 300 watts/ch, all channels driven. AVRs simply aren't in the same league/market.

This product line has my interest, and I am reading and learning. Sometimes the wattage posted on the rear of components is referring to the power consumption, in watts. Not to be confused with the RMS power.
post #709 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Espo77 View Post

This product line has my interest, and I am reading and learning. Sometimes the wattage posted on the rear of components is referring to the power consumption, in watts. Not to be confused with the RMS power.
Yep, but the amount of power an amplifier consumes (which is also rated in RMS power as I understand it) certainly has an affect on the amount of RMS power that it can provide on output. As a point of comparison, my RX-Z11 input power specification is 800 watts. This suggests that the Z11 should be able to output more power to its speakers than the A3030 can (which is rated at 490 watts input).

I must say though, that I just replaced one of my Z11s with an A3030 and am quite happy with it and haven't noticed any obvious loss of power. wink.gif
post #710 of 2224
Hi,

New owner here (RX-A1030) and the unit arrives tomorrow. Had some AVR issues and Im sending my current brand back, so I figured this was a good a time as any to try Yamaha, because everyone speaks so highly. Its gonna be a big change for me because Ive been mostly Denon (one Onkyo) and Audyssey. Today Ill try and read this entire thread, but Im sure Ill still be on a learning curve using YPAO, etc...

I'm a pretty simple user though, I run an Oppo and DVR into the AVR, one HDMI out to a Panny plasma. I generally only way movies at high volumes, and have very efficient Klipsch RF82II towers and matching center along with a Hsu VTF15H sub. I also always turn video processing off in the AVR, the plasma is calibrated and I dont need to help from an AVR smile.gif

That being said, if you think of any useful pointers for a Yamaha newbie before I ask another question, please throw them out. Im kinda excited, Ive always known what to expect from Audyssey/Denon, but everyone I talk too with some experience all speak highly of Yamaha as quality product. I also like the weight of the AVR and it seems their amps are well built.
post #711 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Hi,

New owner here (RX-A1030) and the unit arrives tomorrow. Had some AVR issues and Im sending my current brand back, so I figured this was a good a time as any to try Yamaha, because everyone speaks so highly. Its gonna be a big change for me because Ive been mostly Denon (one Onkyo) and Audyssey. Today Ill try and read this entire thread, but Im sure Ill still be on a learning curve using YPAO, etc...

I'm a pretty simple user though, I run an Oppo and DVR into the AVR, one HDMI out to a Panny plasma. I generally only way movies at high volumes, and have very efficient Klipsch RF82II towers and matching center along with a Hsu VTF15H sub. I also always turn video processing off in the AVR, the plasma is calibrated and I dont need to help from an AVR smile.gif

That being said, if you think of any useful pointers for a Yamaha newbie before I ask another question, please throw them out. Im kinda excited, Ive always known what to expect from Audyssey/Denon, but everyone I talk too with some experience all speak highly of Yamaha as quality product. I also like the weight of the AVR and it seems their amps are well built.

A couple of things I have done on my Yamaha units (2 RX-A3010's, and a CX-A5000) is turn of CEC unless you absolutely can't live without it, enable Standby pass through and network standby. Another thing since you mentioned you have Klipsch speakers (I do also) is after running YPAO if things sound a bit bright check your Equalizer settings in the speaker menu. The "Natural" setting will lower the brightness a little, but if it is still on the bright side change it to "Through". I messed with my yamaha units for months trying to tame the high frequency on my Klipsch RF-63's and found the through setting works the best with my speakers. My wife has Polk speakers and "Natural" sounds the best through her system. When you run YPAO you will want to do a multi position measurement if your units YPAO will do it as I am not sure if the YPAO on your specific model does multi position measurements. Overall the Yamaha units are excellent and I am sure you will be happy.smile.gif
post #712 of 2224
Thanks, it does have the R.S.C. w/multi-point YPAO.

That was one thing with Audyssey, I always did the maximum number of positions it allowed you to measure. Is Yamaha known to be any more bright than Onkyo?
post #713 of 2224
Never mind
Edited by Capitol K - 10/23/13 at 2:10pm
post #714 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitol K View Post

Just got a 3030 and it won't recognize my subwoofer. Upgrading from a Denon 4310 that worked fine with the same sub/wiring for years.

YPAO doesn't detect it and it won't emit a test tone when going through manual setup.

What I've tried:
- adding a sub through manual setup
- setting all speakers to small / 80hz crossover
- increasing sub levels both on sub itself and through 3030 setup

Appreciate any thoughts on how to fix.

(Adding to the annoyance of this, the quick setup card's instructions about where to plug in the sub don't match the back of the 3030. The receiver has a black plugin labeled "subwoofer" beneath another black plugin labeled "center"; the quick setup instruction sheet labels those differently and instructs to plug the sub into the top one (i.e., NOT the one labeled "subwoofer" on the receiver itself). Because it's unclear where the sub is actually supposed to be plugged in, every piece of troubleshooting takes twice as long as I have to test both....)

Are you certain that you are plugging into the subwoofer outputs and not the multichannel subwoofer input? On the back of the 3030, all output connector areas are white, whereas the input connector areas are black. There are two subwoofer outputs, one with a white center (left) and one with a red center (right). These are also labeled as front and back should our subwoofers be located that way.
post #715 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post

Are you certain that you are plugging into the subwoofer outputs and not the multichannel subwoofer input? On the back of the 3030, all output connector areas are white, whereas the input connector areas are black. There are two subwoofer outputs, one with a white center (left) and one with a red center (right). These are also labeled as front and back should our subwoofers be located that way.
Ouch! I did that once on my 80.3! It did say sub...
post #716 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

Hi,

New owner here (RX-A1030) and the unit arrives tomorrow. Had some AVR issues and Im sending my current brand back, so I figured this was a good a time as any to try Yamaha, because everyone speaks so highly. Its gonna be a big change for me because Ive been mostly Denon (one Onkyo) and Audyssey. Today Ill try and read this entire thread, but Im sure Ill still be on a learning curve using YPAO, etc...

I'm a pretty simple user though, I run an Oppo and DVR into the AVR, one HDMI out to a Panny plasma. I generally only way movies at high volumes, and have very efficient Klipsch RF82II towers and matching center along with a Hsu VTF15H sub. I also always turn video processing off in the AVR, the plasma is calibrated and I dont need to help from an AVR smile.gif

That being said, if you think of any useful pointers for a Yamaha newbie before I ask another question, please throw them out. Im kinda excited, Ive always known what to expect from Audyssey/Denon, but everyone I talk too with some experience all speak highly of Yamaha as quality product. I also like the weight of the AVR and it seems their amps are well built.

Knowing that you have an Oppo 103, I would suggest that you try running the DVR thru the Oppo and using HDMI 1 directly to your TV with HDMI 2 sending audio to the 1030. I have a Lumagen Radiance video processor and a 3020. Tried various configurations but inputing sources (Oppo 103 and Tivo) into the 3020 with all video processing turned off and sending that to the Radiance for scaling etc. produced a softer less detailed PQ (IMO) than sending al source to the Radiance with video from it to TV and audio only to the 3020. My experience with Yamaha AVRs is that when you turn off video processing it is off so I attribute the lower PQ to the fact that the sources had to go thru one more device before getting to the TV. Good luck.
post #717 of 2224
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post

Are you certain that you are plugging into the subwoofer outputs and not the multichannel subwoofer input? On the back of the 3030, all output connector areas are white, whereas the input connector areas are black. There are two subwoofer outputs, one with a white center (left) and one with a red center (right). These are also labeled as front and back should our subwoofers be located that way.

Yep, that was the issue; figured it out right after I posted here... Tried to delete my post but you were too fast for me!

So here's another, less stupid, question I think: how can I turn off the on screen volume display? Doesn't seem to be an obvious option to do that like there was on my Denon.
post #718 of 2224
Volume display is a so-called "short message" that can be turned off from: Function Menu / Display Set / Short Message
post #719 of 2224
Hi everyone,

herewith another update of my experiences with the CX-A5000 to include a couple of Fuzz Measure graphs from my measurements today on the CX-A5000 (25 October 2013) and on my Denon AVR-4311CI (6 September 2013). The Yamaha EQ was a 5-position measurement including the RSC option. The Denon Audyssey MultEQ XT32 was also a 5-position measurement in approximately the same positions but with a likely 4.5 inch discrepancy due to the tri-wing that the Yamaha uses for the microphone. Measuring was done on my MacBook Air with Fuzz Measure Pro 3.3.1 (new version released today), using an EMM-6 calibrated microphone and the ART USB dualPRE preamplifier. Bluejeanscable LC-1 9-feet RCA cables were hooked up in mono mode 180degrees out of phase so as to include a valid subwoofer frequency. The screen capture shows the two main graphs comparing YPAO RSC to Audyssey MultEQ XT32.

FWIW I did some quick playing with the PEQ and I was able to smooth out the 60-150Hz region much more after copying the Flat response curve to manual and then editing the first three PEQ bands. BUT, because Yamaha has screwed up the Manual PEQ and I couldn't fine tune the centre frequency I can't really target the problem areas. I have sent in a feature request to Yamaha to fix this with a software update so I hope they will because then I would be really able to make this sing and dance!



As you can see by the measurements YPAO RSC has done a very admirable job, in fact, in my room with my Revel and Paradigm speakers/subwoofers has actually done better than Audyssey MultEQ XT32 did. To be honest I didn't think this was going to be the case. I knew I liked the sound of it with the YPAO flat EQ but wasn't sure if that was a placebo affect that I wanted to believe my new purchase was somehow better wink.gif Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with Dynamic EQ engaged provided the best listening experience with EQ enabled on the Denon. Audyssey's default setting had a large dip at 1.5kHz for some reason and boosted the highs significantly.

Hope this helps. Cheers.
post #720 of 2224
You are doing honest work here TKO1 and it is very much appreciated.
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