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Best Subwoofer for $350 or less (Large room)

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
I've finally made some decisions on a new receiver and front 3 speakers, and would appreciate some advice on the subwoofer that might complement my system.

Receiver: Pioneer SC-1222-K (7.2 - 600W)
Front L/R: JBL ES80
Center: JBL Studio 120C
Mid/Rear: Onkyo SKS-HT540 speakers
Subwoofer...?

My room is quite large at 15'x20' (15' vaulted ceiling) and open to kitchen and a few small front rooms. Subwoofer options that I am looking at include:

1 - JBL Studio 1 Series SUB150P (300W/500W) - $180
2 - JBL ES250PBK (400W/700W) - $200
3 - Energy Power 12 - $235
4 - MartinLogan Dynamo 300 - $300
5 - Klipsh RW-12d - $350

While these are the subs I have taken a liking to given their balance with price/performance...if you know of any killer deals out there just let me know! I would appreciate some comments...
post #2 of 41
How about upping your budget $50 and getting dual JBL ES250s? You have a large space to fill plus two subs will give you more even response.
post #3 of 41
word on the net is the jbl has amp problems...how about looking at the PA-150. Does not extend the deepest but will have twice the output of anything mentioned above from 40hz on up.
post #4 of 41
While I'd think JBL would do their thing under warranty, hadn't heard about that but see there's some talk about problems like here http://www.avsforum.com/t/866797/the-official-jbl-owners-thread/12750

Another sub that's getting some good talk is the NXG like this http://www.amazon.com/NXG-Technology-NX-BAS-500-500-watt-Subwoofer/dp/B008FSTU4G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370108034&sr=8-1&keywords=nxg+subwoofer

I'd still try and do multiple subs...
post #5 of 41
The Klipsch RW12d is probably the best performer especially for extension/depth.

The Jbl ES250PBK looks to be very good for the price, but Jbl has a reputation for subwoofer plate amp failure so do some research on the failure rate of that model.

The other Jbl has a slightly weaker amp and a smaller 10" driver which would negatively impact frequency response compared to the Klipsch RW12d and Jbl ES250PBK.

The Energy is a little under powered and has weak frequency response/extension.

The Martin Logan is on sale for 130$ on amazon, but even if you bought 2 it wouldn't be enough for a large room with it's 8" driver and 75 watt amp.

Another option would be to buy 2 cheaper subs like Bic F12's, Bic V-1020's, Bic V-1220's, Dayton Sub 1200's, etc.
However if the Jbl ES250PBK doesn't have a high failure rate and performs close to it's spec there are very few dual sub purchases that would be more cost effective.
Edited by Mik James - 6/1/13 at 12:12pm
post #6 of 41
Quote:
word on the net is the jbl has amp problems...how about looking at the PA-150. Does not extend the deepest but will have twice the output of anything mentioned above from 40hz on up.

While the Pa-150 certianly isn't flat to 25hz, it's not a 40hz mid-bass module either:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems&col=name&type=0&sort=asc&mfr=-1

The Pa-150 is down 4 db from 40hz to 31.5 hz easily making it a decent 30hz-40hz performer. The port tune is 25hz but it's down 10db by that point which would be a noticeable drop even after room gain.

For comparison the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Ex is 10db down from 31.5-16hz at it's lowest tuning (one port plugged) and 9db down from 31.5-20hz at it's highest tuning.
It's specs are +-2db at 16hz (one port plugged) and +-2db at 22hz (no ports plugged).

The Pa-150 does perform very well up high but it is also a fair bit better (9db better at 20hz) than another popular budget sub, the 22hz rated Bic pl-200 down low as well.

Many Jbl's have had amp issues which is why it's good to proceed with caution but that's not to say they haven't strived to improve that.
Edited by Mik James - 6/1/13 at 12:15pm
post #7 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

While the Pa-150 certianly isn't flat to 25hz, it's not a 40hz mid-bass module either:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems&col=name&type=0&sort=asc&mfr=-1

The Pa-150 is down 4 db from 40hz to 31.5 hz easily making it a decent 30hz-40hz performer. The port tune is 25hz but it's down 10db by that point which would be a noticeable drop even after room gain.

For comparison the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Ex is 10db down from 31.5-16hz at it's lowest tuning (one port plugged) and 9db down from 31.5-20hz at it's highest tuning.
It's specs are +-2db at 16hz (one port plugged) and +-2db at 22hz (no ports plugged).

The Pa-150 does perform very well up high but it is also a fair bit better (9db better at 20hz) than another popular budget sub, the 22hz rated Bic pl-200 down low as well.

Many Jbl's have had amp issues which is why it's good to proceed with caution but that's not to say they haven't strived to improve that.
yes its great subwoofer for the money...not sure why you quoted my post as I am familiar with everything you posted.
post #8 of 41
No matter what, take that Energy sub off that list. Energy used to make very high quality subs for the money, but that sub is just WEAK plus gets down to only 35hZ...for a 12 inch sub? My Energy s10.2 subs that are 10 inch subs get down to about 24hZ easy.
post #9 of 41
So I wonder why the PA-150 doesn't handle anything down below 35hz-ish well? I'm sure more power would help, but I thought I remember reading that someone ran the numbers in WINisd and they said if you raised the tune to something like 30hz or 32hz it would really bring up the SPL numbers around 30hz and make it more in line with it's 40hz+ numbers.

It does look like it has a ton at 40+, but if the Klipsch goes quite a bit deeper then it might not be worth the extra $50 or so (if the Klipsch is back at $300 soon).
post #10 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

So I wonder why the PA-150 doesn't handle anything down below 35hz-ish well? I'm sure more power would help, but I thought I remember reading that someone ran the numbers in WINisd and they said if you raised the tune to something like 30hz or 32hz it would really bring up the SPL numbers around 30hz and make it more in line with it's 40hz+ numbers.
Rule #1 of loudspeaker design: There's no such thing as a free lunch. You may design a driver/speaker to go lower, you may design a driver/speaker to go louder, but you can't design a driver/speaker to go both lower and louder without making it larger and/or more expensive. This is a codicil to Hoffman's Iron Law, which not even Chuck Norris can break.cool.gif
post #11 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

word on the net is the jbl has amp problems...how about looking at the PA-150. Does not extend the deepest but will have twice the output of anything mentioned above from 40hz on up.

Agreed. Should have enough output down into the low 30hz range. Other subs may have better 20hz extension, but if they don't have enough SPL, what's the point of having the extra extension and not having enough above 30hz output?
post #12 of 41
Quote:
yes its great subwoofer for the money...not sure why you quoted my post as I am familiar with everything you posted.

I may have been nit picking a bit, but the way you worded it made it sound as though the Pa-150 suddenly dropped after 40hz when in room it should be easily good to 30hz.

It doesn't look like a great deal either way for around 370$ on amazon though when the Klipsch regularly goes on sale for around 300$ and the Jbl is 200$.
Unless the pa-150 can be had for less elsewhere?
Edited by Mik James - 6/2/13 at 7:49pm
post #13 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

I may have been nit picking a bit, but the way you worded it made it sound as though the Pa-150 suddenly dropped after 40hz when in room it should be easily good to 30hz.

It doesn't like a great deal either way for around 370$ on amazon though when the Klipsch regularly goes on sale for around 300$ and the Jbl is 200$.
Unless the pa-150 can be had for less elsewhere?

no i was just pointing out where it shines compared to other subs in the same price category...either way no biggie. smile.gif
post #14 of 41
l
Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

So I wonder why the PA-150 doesn't handle anything down below 35hz-ish well? I'm sure more power would help, but I thought I remember reading that someone ran the numbers in WINisd and they said if you raised the tune to something like 30hz or 32hz it would really bring up the SPL numbers around 30hz and make it more in line with it's 40hz+ numbers.

It does look like it has a ton at 40+, but if the Klipsch goes quite a bit deeper then it might not be worth the extra $50 or so (if the Klipsch is back at $300 soon).

the pa150 has more lowend output than the klipsch or any sub in its price class... 93db @ 20hz 2m. It just looks like it does not because of the plethora of midbass output it has. you would need 4 rw12's stacked to equal the midbass of the pa150.
Edited by basshead81 - 6/2/13 at 7:17pm
post #15 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

you would need 4 rw12's stacked to equal the midbass of the pa150.

As an owner of three Klipsch subwoofers, I can safely say the above qualifies as a gross exaggeration. This is based on room measurements and not conjecture.

In the next few days when I set up to do sweeps, I'll see what I come up with using four and one meter (at the wife's listening position) measurements as currently, at the main listening position, we're easily able to reach a measured 108dB and at the wife's listening position we're easily able to reach 114dB which are 4m measurements.

Of course, the wife is out on the front porch when I'm doing this.
post #16 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

As an owner of three Klipsch subwoofers, I can safely say the above qualifies as a gross exaggeration. This is based on room measurements and not conjecture.

In the next few days when I set up to do sweeps, I'll see what I come up with using four and one meter (at the wife's listening position) measurements as currently, at the main listening position, we're easily able to reach a measured 108dB and at the wife's listening position we're easily able to reach 114dB which are 4m measurements.

Of course, the wife is out on the front porch when I'm doing this.

the pa150 hits 118db peak 2m ground plane...the rw12 measures roughly 105-107db 2m or 116db 1m. 3 more rw12's colocated would add another 10-12db. whats a gross exaggeration?

in the lower bass they are probably similar 1 for 1...i am just pointing out how much midbass a pa150 has. Its up there with a rythmik FV15HP and more than a PB13U.
Edited by basshead81 - 6/2/13 at 7:55pm
post #17 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

the pa150 hits 118db @ 63hz 2m ground plane...the rw12 measures roughly 105-107db @ 30hz. 3 more rw12's colocated would add another 10-12db. whats a gross exaggeration?

What does the PA-150 measure at 30Hz which is the figure your using for the Klipsch?

At two meters, with three subs, we're easily able to reach 117dB and this is 22Hz to 150Hz at +/-3dB with the exception of a small -4dB room induced null at ~80Hz. The comments are based on real world, in room measurements, not manufacture's specs.

As I posted, when doing some room measurements, if I can, I'll do some measurements and see what I can find. In my opinion, based on in room personal measurements, it's a gross exaggeration. I see that Data-Bass has one measured and we all know that we're worried about output in the <30Hz range and it seems the PA-150 doesn't do so well where it counts....the sub 30Hz range.

Just saying.
post #18 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Have you measured the output of a PA-150 or are you going off manufacture specs?

Supposed to memorize which subs are on here, like the rest of us wink.gif

http://www.data-bass.com/systems
post #19 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Supposed to memorize which subs are on here, like the rest of us wink.gif

http://www.data-bass.com/systems

Ya got me. I was slow on the uptake but ended up there and amended my comments accordingly. tongue.gif

(and please, none of my comments are intended as a knock on the PA-150 as I'm just keeping it real)
post #20 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

What does the PA-150 measure at 30Hz which is the figure your using for the Klipsch?

At two meters, with three subs, we're easily able to reach 117dB and this is 22Hz to 150Hz at +/-3dB with the exception of a small -4dB room induced null at ~80Hz. The comments are based on real world, in room measurements, not manufacture's specs.

As I posted, when doing some room measurements, if I can, I'll do some measurements and see what I can find. In my opinion, based on in room personal measurements, it's a gross exaggeration. I see that Data-Bass has one measured and we all know that we're worried about output in the <30Hz range and it seems the PA-150 doesn't do so well where it counts....the sub 30Hz range.

Just saying.

In one thread you said your sub system topped at 110db now your claiming 117db...at this point I would like to see some proof of your claims wink.gif. and your 117db @ 2m is in room with 3 subs. The PA150 would be around 124db 2m in room....

AS I ALREADY STATED THE PA150 IS SIMILAR TO THE RW12 @30HZ(ie lower bass). I WAS SIMPLY POINTING OUT THE MIDBASS OUTPUT. I FIGURED BY POSTING THIS IN ALL CAPS YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY COMPRHEND THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE?

And no not all of us are worried about sub 30hz...only you are to support your argument. tongue.gif
Edited by basshead81 - 6/2/13 at 8:25pm
post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Ya got me. I was slow on the uptake but ended up there and amended my comments accordingly. tongue.gif

(and please, none of my comments are intended as a knock on the PA-150 as I'm just keeping it real)

Your not keeping anything real...its just another case of you getting a chapped ass. tongue.gif
Its ok tho, I still enjoy reading your old sea scroll posts... smile.gif
post #22 of 41
Beeman, please dont take anything personal Im just joking around with ya. smile.gif
post #23 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Your not keeping anything real...its just another case of you getting a chapped ass. tongue.gif
Its ok tho, I still enjoy reading your old sea scroll posts... smile.gif
lol Gotta love the BeeMan. smile.gif
post #24 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

l
You would need 4 rw12's stacked to equal the midbass of the pa150.
eek.gif Have you been drinkin' again? biggrin.gif
post #25 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

eek.gif Have you been drinkin' again? biggrin.gif
lol not me...just tryin to get a rise out if Beenman. In all seriousness I was just joking...I highly doubt 1 pa150 could keep up with 4 rw12's, even in the midbass range. I wont poke fun anymore...srry guys!!
post #26 of 41
Since my chain was being pulled, the post was pulled as the information becomes superfluous.
Edited by BeeMan458 - 6/3/13 at 4:28am
post #27 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Beeman, please dont take anything personal Im just joking around with ya. smile.gif

Thanks!

Yes, I do personalize things first.



It's a trait I hide well......not.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 6/3/13 at 4:30am
post #28 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Since my chain was being pulled, the post was pulled as the information becomes superfluous.

I was able to read it though. biggrin.gif Good morning Bee smile.gif
post #29 of 41
...biggrin.gif

What can I say, when one is bored and there's no other sport to be found, I'm an easy target.

I'm kinda like that all shot up "CURVE AHEAD" sign on the side of the road, that's just been shot again. tongue.gif

If a sense of humor came down the road and ran me over, I'd want to know where the tire tracks came from. tongue.gif

If it were the end days of the world, while everybody else was out looking for a friend to share the last day with, I'd be on the streets looking for a clue. rolleyes.gif

Is that enough self-deprecating humor?

...
post #30 of 41
Quote:
Is that enough self-deprecating humor?

Not so but plenty. Humor is the key word... cool.gif
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