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After Earth Screening in Native 4K - Page 2

post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Conceptually they are the same... However:

Because the movie 2k files are far less compressed than bluray, the upscaling engine is able to do the upscaling far better than from blu-ray to 4K

Also because movie files are in Frame-by-Frame compression (instead of consumer Group-of-Picture compression) that also yields much cleaner source which in return also yield a better upscaled motion resolution.


Not quite.

DCP has a much larger gamut and a much larger dynamic range than rec.709 video.

Higher precision means they can encode more dynamic range from the original camera material ( linear in the case of F65) through the DI to the final delivery. rec.709 BD by comparisson is usually heavily crushed or clipped in the blacks and/or whites depending on picture content and obviopusly its 4:2:0 8bit.

As for the whole 2k vs 4k debate most people (including the DOP on the film half the time) are unable to differentiate 2k vs 4k on even large screen sizes let alone the sort of screens sizes you find at home.

However bigger numbers sell better than smaller numbers.
post #32 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

Not quite.

DCP has a much larger gamut and a much larger dynamic range than rec.709 video.

Higher precision means they can encode more dynamic range from the original camera material ( linear in the case of F65) through the DI to the final delivery. rec.709 BD by comparisson is usually heavily crushed or clipped in the blacks and/or whites depending on picture content and obviopusly its 4:2:0 8bit.

As for the whole 2k vs 4k debate most people (including the DOP on the film half the time) are unable to differentiate 2k vs 4k on even large screen sizes let alone the sort of screens sizes you find at home.

However bigger numbers sell better than smaller numbers.

The larger issue is the use of Bayer array sensors—half the pixels are green, with red and blue pixels splitting the other 50%. 4K RAW footage doesn't possess full color resolution, but when it gets down-sampled to 2K, the 2:1 interpolation creates full-color pixels. For 4K material to truly look great, 8K source footage is a necessity.

2K is the right resolution to display 4K capture and 4K display is perfect for 8K capture.
post #33 of 49
Are the pixels on the F65's sensor full-color? I thought that might've been one of the improvements they'd want to claim. After all, Sony's competing with RED when it comes to 4K.

What about the Arri Alexa, with its technically lower (2.8K) resolution? Are those pixels full-color?
post #34 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang Zei View Post

Are the pixels on the F65's sensor full-color? I thought that might've been one of the improvements they'd want to claim. After all, Sony's competing with RED when it comes to 4K.

What about the Arri Alexa, with its technically lower (2.8K) resolution? Are those pixels full-color?

I did a bit of poking around. Looks like Sony manages to double the color resolution with the F65. Basically, it's an 8K sensor posing as a 4K sensor, in order to address the issues I brought up regarding Bayer arrays and full-color resolution.

Red and Alexa are both using conventional CMOS sensors, based on what I read.




Edited by imagic - 6/6/13 at 8:04am
post #35 of 49
Where could one find a list of theaters with 4K projectors that have the necessary tools to read 4K media. Beyond this it would be nice if someone with knowledge about all this and connections with the film business could host an AVS thread or a web site that had this information. Ideally, the thread or site would have the projector list and be updated each time a new film was released with native 4K capture and 4K released digital media. Each release cycle we could look to see where we could see a $K to 4K production. I would drive a reasonable distance to be treated to a "real" 4K movie.
post #36 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB View Post

Where could one find a list of theaters with 4K projectors that have the necessary tools to read 4K media. Beyond this it would be nice if someone with knowledge about all this and connections with the film business could host an AVS thread or a web site that had this information. Ideally, the thread or site would have the projector list and be updated each time a new film was released with native 4K capture and 4K released digital media. Each release cycle we could look to see where we could see a $K to 4K production. I would drive a reasonable distance to be treated to a "real" 4K movie.



I agree, and would like to know what I'm seeing also. You just don't know what theaters are using for projectors anymore and they should list them on their website.
post #37 of 49
The theater where I was working 6 months ago had 1 NEC 2K projector and 13 Sony SRX R320 4K projectors. The Sony's were all installed after the NEC and we were told that Regal Cinemas had signed a deal with Sony for the projectors and Theatre Management Systems that they came with. It is highly likely that many of Regal's theaters are using the Sony SRX R320 projectors, however, some of the theaters that had earlier digital conversions may be using Christie or NEC projectors. You could always ask at your local cinema to see if they'd know (I'd stick to asking a manager, but even then, they might not have a clue). That's just my advice.
post #38 of 49
Found this on the Sony 4K site:

http://sony.links.channelintelligence.com/oemsites/6553221/4K/wrapper_v2.asp?cii_sZip=92025&cii_nLat=&cii_nLong=&cii_sSKU=-1&cii_nRuleGroupID=2856&cii_nRadius=250&cii_sCountry=US

It doesn't say how many at each site, but each site will probably have at least one. Question then is do they have the 4K player.
post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredxr2d2 View Post

The theater where I was working 6 months ago had 1 NEC 2K projector and 13 Sony SRX R320 4K projectors. The Sony's were all installed after the NEC and we were told that Regal Cinemas had signed a deal with Sony for the projectors and Theatre Management Systems that they came with. It is highly likely that many of Regal's theaters are using the Sony SRX R320 projectors, however, some of the theaters that had earlier digital conversions may be using Christie or NEC projectors. You could always ask at your local cinema to see if they'd know (I'd stick to asking a manager, but even then, they might not have a clue). That's just my advice.



Hi, I go to either the Regal or Cinemark theaters, the next time I go I'm going to ask the manager. If he or she doesn't know what cameras their theatre uses they need a new line of work. If I had any job at a theatre I'd find a way to get into the projection room and check everything out. Thanks for your post smile.gif
post #40 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Hi, I go to either the Regal or Cinemark theaters, the next time I go I'm going to ask the manager. If he or she doesn't know what cameras their theatre uses they need a new line of work. If I had any job at a theatre I'd find a way to get into the projection room and check everything out. Thanks for you post smile.gif

The projection room at the theater where I worked was locked by a coded door and only management and projectionists were generally allowed in the Booth.

Also, now that the digital conversion is complete, there is no longer anyone who spends any time in the Booth except for once or twice a week to upload the DCPs to the central TMS server. The only other time that employees would be in the Booth was when we had scheduled a Booth Tour as part of a birthday party package. I knew a few managers who couldn't tell you anything about the projectors we used, other than that they were Sony (and maybe not even that), so it is not crazy to think that the manager might not know--but I totally understand how you feel about wanting to know everything you could: I felt that way too!
post #41 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB View Post

Found this on the Sony 4K site:

http://sony.links.channelintelligence.com/oemsites/6553221/4K/wrapper_v2.asp?cii_sZip=92025&cii_nLat=&cii_nLong=&cii_sSKU=-1&cii_nRuleGroupID=2856&cii_nRadius=250&cii_sCountry=US

It doesn't say how many at each site, but each site will probably have at least one. Question then is do they have the 4K player.



Thanks for the link. Unfortunately my local theatre doesn't use the Sony projector. For 4K projectors aren't all the movies on a hard drive of some kind? Now I'm really curious to know what my local theaters use.
Edited by comfynumb - 6/7/13 at 3:12pm
post #42 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredxr2d2 View Post

The projection room at the theater where I worked was locked by a coded door and only management and projectionists were generally allowed in the Booth.

Also, now that the digital conversion is complete, there is no longer anyone who spends any time in the Booth except for once or twice a week to upload the DCPs to the central TMS server. The only other time that employees would be in the Booth was when we had scheduled a Booth Tour as part of a birthday party package. I knew a few managers who couldn't tell you anything about the projectors we used, other than that they were Sony (and maybe not even that), so it is not crazy to think that the manager might not know--but I totally understand how you feel about wanting to know everything you could: I felt that way too!



It's kind of sad that hardly anyone is in the booth anymore, changing reels and going their thing. Digital is changing everything. Is there really any need for a full time projectionist anymore or does someone just come in a couple of times a week and upload the movies?
post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

It's kind of sad that hardly anyone is in the booth anymore, changing reels and going their thing. Digital is changing everything. Is there really any need for a full time projectionist anymore or does someone just come in a couple of times a week and upload the movies?

Where I worked, it used to be that I was a part-time projectionist, but also just floor staff. Then we switched to 100% digital with auto-starts and I was "demoted" to just floor staff, but with the added responsibility of setting up movies on Wednesday and Thursday nights. Now that I've left, I think they've added those responsibilities onto some of the Managers, since only one of them (that still works there) used to be a projectionist.

It is extremely sad to me that projectionists are no longer in use: while the pay wasn't good, I still think it was my favorite job that I've had.
post #44 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredxr2d2 View Post

Where I worked, it used to be that I was a part-time projectionist, but also just floor staff. Then we switched to 100% digital with auto-starts and I was "demoted" to just floor staff, but with the added responsibility of setting up movies on Wednesday and Thursday nights. Now that I've left, I think they've added those responsibilities onto some of the Managers, since only one of them (that still works there) used to be a projectionist.

It is extremely sad to me that projectionists are no longer in use: while the pay wasn't good, I still think it was my favorite job that I've had.



I gotcha thanks for the info.
post #45 of 49
After earth crashed and burned at the box office here in the states but overseas is making up for it.
post #46 of 49
There's no point in hunting for Cinemas with 4K projectors if the movie you want to see is not mastered in 4K.
Here is Sony's 4K releases. I know of no other studio that have such a release list.
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/mkt-digitalcinema/resource.latest.bbsccms-assets-mkt-digicinema-latest-Sony4KDigitalCinemaTitles.shtml#2012
post #47 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I did a bit of poking around. Looks like Sony manages to double the color resolution with the F65. Basically, it's an 8K sensor posing as a 4K sensor, in order to address the issues I brought up regarding Bayer arrays and full-color resolution.

Red and Alexa are both using conventional CMOS sensors, based on what I read.

That's Sony marketing. Take that with a huge grain of scepticism.
Bayer pattern doesn't have that space between pixels as Sony show in their marketing material, so that's Sony's usual "Make.Believe".

Here's a breakdown of the reality of Sony's claim. And if you hear somebody claim that the F65 has gotten full 8K capability with a new Firmware, that's just some kind of pixel shift software, because the hardware fact is that the F65 still only has a 20 megapixel sensor and use only a 17.6 megapixel area fo the sensor to record images, and would need minimum a 33 megapixel sensor to be able to do 8K.
Quote:
Camera companies have often used fuzzy math to market cameras and it can be terribly confusing when trying to understand what makes competing cameras tick.

Sony’s F65 is the latest camera to join the fray with what Sony claims is an ultra hi-res 8K sensor. 8k sounds mighty impressive, but when you start looking at Sony’s specifications things don’t add up.

Right there in the F65 manual, Sony lists the sensor dimensions as 8192 x 2160. Good, there are the 8 thousand horizontal pixels but why are there only 2 thousand vertical pixels?? Does the F65 have an ultra ultra 4:1 widescreen sensor? No, right in the manual it says the aspect ratio is 17:9, right around 2:1 where we would expect it.
Sony must have figured out a way to break the space/time continuum!

It turns out the 8k number means absolutely nothing in terms of the sensor’s actual resolution.
Here is how they get that number: they take a 6k x 3k sensor and flip it 45 degrees.
Then, instead of counting photosites in a horizontal straight line, they stair step up to the line above it.
Stair stepping gives them the 8192 horizontal pixels but since they’ve used 2 horizontal rows to achieve this they can’t stair step on the vertical and they only get 2160 pixels.

This is an absolutely bonkers way of counting photosites and tells us nothing useful about the actual resolution of the sensor.

LINK
post #48 of 49
Since 2009 sony has put their slogan at the end of major studio movies and in advertising for those movies. The 4k list on the website is pretty straight forward. Although not accurate (imdb is good at that) its well done.
post #49 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang Zei View Post

Are the pixels on the F65's sensor full-color? I thought that might've been one of the improvements they'd want to claim. After all, Sony's competing with RED when it comes to 4K.

What about the Arri Alexa, with its technically lower (2.8K) resolution? Are those pixels full-color?

I did a bit of poking around. Looks like Sony manages to double the color resolution with the F65. Basically, it's an 8K sensor posing as a 4K sensor, in order to address the issues I brought up regarding Bayer arrays and full-color resolution.

Red and Alexa are both using conventional CMOS sensors, based on what I read.




I'm guessing this requirement in video sensors is analogous to the 2x sampling rate of the Nyquist theorem in audio, heck, a signal's a signal, right? To recreate the original you need 2x. Not sure if that's right, but it seems plausible to me.
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