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Forza 5 10 years in the making - Page 3

post #61 of 728
I don't see how something like the addition of rain is suddenly going to turn it into a full fledged simulation instead of the balanced arcade/simulation approach that these style of games utilize ("Simcades") in order to appeal to the broadest audience possible and provide something that pleases everyone.

These games need things to keep them fresh. Roster additions, pretty graphics, and physics improvements are nice but they're not everything. Something like LeMans with Forza's wonderful simcade physics but with changable weather, the day/night cycle, multiple classes on-track, tires that wear (How's that crossing this invisible line that would break the spirit of the game but damage affecting the drivability of the vehicle isn't?), pit stops, a decent size field of cars, and some basic semblance of real life rules that are within reason so they appease those that lean towards the simulation side yet aren't so cumbersome as to turn off those that lean towards the arcade side of things are hardly things I see as contrary to their approach like he's trying to portray.

How would something like having the traditional Indianapolis 500 three wide start in the IndyCar they're including when racing the oval at Indy suddenly defeat the entire direction they're trying to go after? It needs freshness and the only thing I'm seeing so far that isn't just a polishing of more of the same is the possibility of head tracking with the Kinect sensor that finally works right in a console racer. I believe Forza 4 tried this with Kinect 1.0 but it didn't really work well and I believe GT5 had a failed and very limited implementation of headtracking as well (I own neither accessory so I can't attest to anything personally).

Forza 4 is a fine game and Forza 5 looks to be more of the same. But there's a certain blandness with these console simcades that I think could be addressed by doing more than just a paint by numbers approach with the development cycle of each. Give us something that isn't merely more of the same with a bit of polish.

I think something like rain would please everybody and would hardly turn it into a full fledged PC level simulation like iRacing instead of a console simcade that everyone can enjoy no matter their taste or their type of controller.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 6/27/13 at 3:49pm
post #62 of 728
Thread Starter 
Forza 5′s Xbox One tech explained by Turn 10


Forza 5 will be the sexiest racer ever. Dan Greenawalt explains to VG247′s Sam Clay where all of the tech wizardry comes from, and how Xbox One’s clout makes the racer gleam.

post #63 of 728
lots of great detail in the video.
post #64 of 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

lots of great detail in the video.

I see why they are getting flak for their missing sim elements. He clearly talks FM5 up as being a great sim game so they are talking out of both sides of their mouths. I personally like the simcade status and Forza has been doing it well for awhile now. I do not want to worry about tire wear and gas, could care less about autovista but I do want great physics and would like to see damage impact the car more. I think FM4 treaded all the lines quite well and realize that I cannot have it all.
post #65 of 728
InsideSimRacing has a few videos up on FM5... with the terrible Thrustmaster wheel...
McLaren F1
post #66 of 728
Honestly, if I can't use my Fanatec or buy a new Fanatec equivalent wheel, I will probably cancel my Xbone preorder.
post #67 of 728
Tom, what about Fantasia?
post #68 of 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by ileff View Post

Tom, what about Fantasia?
It's coming out for the 360 too. biggrin.gif
post #69 of 728
saw a nice preview here. I'm not sure about having imperfections showing in Forza Vista. I just love looking at the cars in the pristine state of AutoVista. I do like the idea of music matching the moment. Games that had that feature were pretty cool. I'm glad that Top Gear is still involved.

http://www.gameplanet.com.au/xbox-one/previews/g51b9f2ced1808/E3-Forza-Motorsport-5-preview/

While Gran Turismo slumbered, Forza Motorsport emerged as a worthy contender in a genre once considered to be well wrapped up by Sony's established racing property. When Gran Turismo 5 finally released in 2010 for PlayStation 3, many racing fans had already traded allegiances. And with the announcement of Forza Motorsport 5, Turn 10's racer beats Gran Turismo to the punch as the first of the rival franchises to feature on next-gen hardware. The time just might be ripe for Forza to cement a pole position.

Bill Giese, design director of Forza 5, talked us through the many changes and improvements to the series' popular formula that the Xbox One architecture affords. The first major improvement brought to our attention pertains to Autovista: the mode introduced in Forza Motorsport 4 that enabled players to examine their vehicles in exceptional detail. Where Forza 4's Autovista featured only 24 vehicles, every single one of the "hundreds" of cars on offer (Turn 10 isn't talking exact numbers just yet) will feature in Forza 5's version, now simply named "Forza Vista."

While Forza 4's cars were indeed striking when viewed in Autovista, Giese and his teammates acknowledged that "there was something that still wasn't quite right, kind of in an uncanny-valley way." So Turn 10 re-examined the way it approached lighting and real-world materials and learned something crucial: their existing approach was too good for its own good, and it's the imperfections that make an object believable in a high-definition environment.

"When you walk up close to a car, you can see those little, tiny imperfections. Where the Armor All is buffed on, you can see the marks," explains Giese. This revelation caused Turn 10 to build the assets of Forza 5 with three different layers: base coat, metal flake and clear coat. "We apply these materials to every single aspect of the game," says Giese, which results in the most realistic visuals the series has ever seen.

Another important new aspect of Forza 5 is how it leverages the cloud connectivity that's become something of a sore point for many gamers regarding the Xbox One. For a more basic example of this cloud-powered Forza, your purchasing decisions (using in-game credit) and the liveries you choose to install are stored online; Forza 5 will continue to intelligently suggest new cars and liveries to players based on these preferences. For instance, Giese mentioned that he liked The Simpsons, and so if he purchased a Simpsons-based livery, the system would notify when new ones became available for his chosen cars from the community. "We have a robust community of amazing painters," says Giese, who contends that the new cloud features of Forza means players are "more easily able to enjoy that content." Players who design and create popular liveries are reportedly rewarded with bonus credits.

But the major use of cloud connectivity for Forza 5 is certainly the new implementation of the Drivatar system established in the very first Forza; AI that's designed to replicate a player's driving style, warts and all. "We gave players tools so they could train the Drivatar manually," begins Giese before admitting that it wasn't the most effective means of producing the desired effect. "How do you truly recreate how somebody drives?" The answer, he contends, is by enabling Forza 5 to constantly send a player's every tendency to the cloud; whether they tend to understeer or oversteer, whether they tend to brake early or brake late before a bend. Forza 5 recognises enough elements of driver behavior to keep an ongoing, up-to-date model of the way a player drives stored in the cloud.

"At the end of the day, when you put your controller down, that's when your Drivatar is going to go to work," says Giese. Without the need for the player to be online, their Drivatar will appear in the games their friends play, complete with their name, stats and driver behavior. A player's Drivatar will even earn credits for them while it races on their behalf. Giese informs me that there are no negative consequences of this feature for the player; the races a Drivatar participates in will not affect the player's career or stats in any way.

Turn 10 has employed the talents of Lucasfilm and Skywalker Sound to create an orchestral score for Forza 5 that adapts to the nature of a race. When players overtake other racers, take the lead or approach the finish line, "the score is going to ebb and flow based on that," says Giese. It's also understood that Forza's partnership with Top Gear continues in Forza 5. Jeremy Clarkson will this time be joined by his co-hosts in providing some degree of commentary, although Turn 10 is saying no more at this point.

The studio will also not confirm the final number of tracks to feature in Forza 5 at launch right now (although we know it's in the hundreds), but a Prague-based raceway was demonstrated for this session. "It's really important for us in Forza Motorsport 5 to build living, breathing worlds. Prague was a good canvas for that. It's an old-world city and there's texture we can see in the buildings." Giese also pointed out how the improved light modelling sees sunlight stream through the windscreen and reflects off the carbon-fibre dashboard in an extremely realistic fashion.

Forza 5 will run at 60fps at full 1080p, support head-tracking via Kinect and also allow players to summon the main game hub at any time with voice commands. It will utilise SmartGlass for leaderboards and achievements, and Giese suggested that more will be revealed about its SmartGlass in due course.

Giese also advised that Forza 5 will utilise dedicated servers for its multiplayer component, which is a first for the series. Turn 10 will make an announcement later in the summer about a partnership with Calspan, leading pioneers in tire testing. Specifically, Giese hinted that the partnership means big things for Forza 5's physics engine.

As a truly next-gen incarnation of arguably the top racing franchise on the market today, Forza 5 appears to be one of the best cards in Microsoft's hand right now. Even more than this, it might be the most convincing ambassador yet for the company's vision of a connected gaming future.
post #70 of 728
here's SimHQSport's video impression of the game from E3:



here's a very cool video: Greenawalt showed up to E3 in an Indy car! this one was the guy's impressions and has a lot of neat hands-on stuff including scenes from the FM5 party:

Edited by onlysublime - 7/11/13 at 7:16pm
post #71 of 728
Thanks for the videos. I can't wait for this game. This is my primary reason for pre-ordering the xbox one.
post #72 of 728
While it stinks that existing wheels won't be compatible and I wish there was something to look forward to beyond prettier graphics, some physics improvements, and new additions to the car and track roster, it's certainly the Xbox One game I'm looking forward to the most right now.

Useful head-tracking seems to be about it though where innovations are concerned (Unless someone buys into the cloud AI stuff they're talking about... I fully expect that to fall flat and reflect little difference than what we've already had). The rest is just polishing what we already had. While Forza 4 is a great base to work with and a polished next gen Forza with no innovations would still be excellent, I really wish they'd take a big step forward with every iteration to expand their horizons past what they've already done.
post #73 of 728
New Forza article up. They discuss griefing, and here is the bit I found interesting.
Quote:
"So the difficulty options, for example, are going to put you into a profile of the types of Drivatars we're going to pull from," Mathis continued. "Because let's face it, not everybody has this huge, vast number of friends especially at the launch of a console."

Depending on the difficulty options you select, you'll be matched with faster or cleaner Drivatars. The game may modify how the Drivatars of people who aren't your Xbox Live friends behave, making them less likely to employ dirty tactics. "Being in a race, you want to have a variety of players equal to you in speed, but they've got their kiddy gloves on because they're strangers to you," Mathis explained. "They're still fast but they're not going to be quite as brutal."

http://www.oxm.co.uk/58256/features/new-forza-5-drivatar-details-how-turn-10-handles-xbox-live-griefers/
post #74 of 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

While it stinks that existing wheels won't be compatible and I wish there was something to look forward to beyond prettier graphics, some physics improvements, and new additions to the car and track roster, it's certainly the Xbox One game I'm looking forward to the most right now.

Useful head-tracking seems to be about it though where innovations are concerned (Unless someone buys into the cloud AI stuff they're talking about... I fully expect that to fall flat and reflect little difference than what we've already had). The rest is just polishing what we already had. While Forza 4 is a great base to work with and a polished next gen Forza with no innovations would still be excellent, I really wish they'd take a big step forward with every iteration to expand their horizons past what they've already done.

So what kind of improvements would you want? Just curious. For a game like Horizon I can see the Kinect making GPS even better but for vanilla Forza I'm curious what can be improved outside of head tracking. It seems there's not a lot to innovate on with a game like this once you get most features people expect in a racing game. It's why we get prettier graphics, better sound, more realistic physics, etc.. I'm ok with that to be honest.
post #75 of 728
I know how crucial it is for Forza to be a simcade. It needs to appeal to as wide of a crowd as possible so it needs to take the middle path so there's something for everyone. So I know that a true simulation is out of the question. Even if that's what their audience wanted, you'd never be able to control something like a 1,000HP LeMans prototype with a gamepad so accommodating the standard control method that 90%+ of their audience will be using would still necessitate taking the middle ground with the physics to keep it controllable for those fans.

With that out of the way, I'd love to see dynamic weather and lighting. Parts of tracks being in the shade with perhaps the next lap being sunny. Rain that comes and goes. Things like a dry line forming in the endurance races when it has been raining and and the track starts to dry when it stops with lap times steadily decreasing. Races taking place after dark. Endurance races going from sun to night conditions with evolving weather. And so on and so on. Forza needs more things to give it life like the trackside crowd and lighting enhancements that Forza 5 appears to be getting.

And I'd love to see a drastic increase in field sizes. There just isn't nearly enough vehicles on track to even give a real feeling of racing on the shorter tracks. And the feeling on some of the larger locations like the Nurburgring and Le Mans is just bizarre and gives a feeling of isolation and anything but actually racing which is the exact opposite of how it should be.

And I'd like to see some other details present. Multi-class racing in sportscar type stuff so when you're in a prototype for instance, there are several other classes also in competition on the track. Or if you're in their new IndyCar at Indianapolis, the starts should be 3 wide. Things like pit stops, wearing tires, and pit options like just refueling and not changing tires during the usually boring endurance events to give a semblance of real-life and actual strategy that's within reason that will appeal to those that appreciate such things while at the same time not dragging it down for the people that want something that's accessible.

I don't think that something like driving through debris and then having a tire go down a couple of turns later would hurt the game for anyone and would just enhance the experience. And if such a thought of bringing a component like that from real-life to spice up the experience is a turn-off to some, a option to disable it would easily accommodate those just like there already is with the damage modeling. Plus with the Codemasters style rewind feature, those that don't want a race possibly ruined on say the last lap with it on could still rewind.

Forza is just too sterile and needs to embrace more of real-life while keeping in mind that simcade hybrid model that has served them and their rival over on their competition so well since the beginning. Realism but not so much of it that the accessibility flies out of the window leaving you with a small niche of an audience.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 7/14/13 at 4:32pm
post #76 of 728
Fair enough those are good suggestions. Maybe we'll get them all by Forza 10. smile.gif
post #77 of 728
Hopefully it won't be that long for at least some of that. They really need to inject more life into the series. The new lighting and more active and populated environments are a nice touch but they really need to do more so it doesn't seem so static and always the same in order that it feels more like real racing.

It doesn't even have to be complicated things. Little touches like a helicopter occasionally being in view above the track taking aerial shots for presumably a television telecast like you'd see in real life and perhaps even sometimes seeing its shadow quickly pass over you are the type of things that inject life into what sometimes seems like a very sterile game. Little touches like that just can't be overused or too predictable or it destroys the very benefit you're trying to create to make a digital world come to life.

They've done an excellent job with the fundamentals. Now I'd like to see them start going the extra mile instead of focusing on merely upgrading things they've already built to an excellent state. They can't ignore the fundamentals and need to always be working to upgrade them and physics should always be the top priority. But I think the time has come to shift a part of their resources to start including things that they don't view as basic requirements in order to further the illusion they're after and to keep the fans coming back.

More of the same is going to eventually tire the fans out for what's essentially a very formulaic experience. Polishing existing features can only do so much. Sometimes you need to add features and they've sadly done precious little of that over the first four entries in the series.

And I can't speak for everyone, but I think the car/track balance is way out of whack in these games. Sadly I see little hope but I'd love to see a lot more tracks at the cost of a portion of the vehicle roster. Particularly since vehicle DLC seems very successful so it can continue to be updated and kept fresh during the two year life of a Forza game where as the track roster is locked in on day 1.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 7/14/13 at 6:59pm
post #78 of 728
Some of what Horizon did with different types of races (plane, helicopter, balloon), etc was a pretty cool way to inject some feeling of you being in a living, breathing world. I agree with you there needs to be more of a sense of change so it feels real and not so sterile.
post #79 of 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

Hopefully it won't be that long for at least some of that. They really need to inject more life into the series. The new lighting and more active and populated environments are a nice touch but they really need to do more so it doesn't seem so static and always the same in order that it feels more like real racing.

It doesn't even have to be complicated things. Little touches like a helicopter occasionally being in view above the track taking aerial shots for presumably a television telecast like you'd see in real life and perhaps even sometimes seeing its shadow quickly pass over you are the type of things that inject life into what sometimes seems like a very sterile game.

they do have things like helicopters flying overhead in FM5. check out some of the gameplay vids. for a 1st gen launch title, FM5 is looking pretty awesome. I look back at the launch titles for the 360 and man, they were pretty primitive compared to later gen 360 games. To start FM5 at the level it is is pretty amazing.
post #80 of 728
I've watched several videos including some that you've linked to. I just didn't catch that particular thing. It was just an illustration anyways of a small and easy touch that helps breath life into a recreation of auto racing. That this specific example is apparently there, while nice, doesn't change the gist of what I'm trying to get at.

I recognize that they've made improvements in this area to help breath more life into their virtual take on auto racing, but I think they need to do more in many areas to breath even more life into the series so the experience seems less static and more dynamic.

One big area where they're especially lacking is recreating the unpredictability of auto racing. Beyond some AI routines that cause cars to occasionally crash or run wide, it's pretty much anything but unless you venture online. The Forza experience is just far too straight forward and predictable and I'd love to see steps taken to change that like with dynamic weather since real racing is anything but predictable and static.

I don't hold out much hope for their AI system being the revolution they're portraying it as. But who knows, maybe I'm going to be pleasantly surprised. A real revolution in AI would provide this franchise with precisely what I say it needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

They really need to inject more life into the series. The new lighting and more active and populated environments are a nice touch but they really need to do more so it doesn't seem so static and always the same in order that it feels more like real racing.

Edited by Leo_Ames - 7/14/13 at 10:30pm
post #81 of 728
I'd be all for dynamic weather as long as they can maintain 1080p, 60 fps... seeing the framerate tank during gran turismo 5 during night/rain was terrible.

reading that you can potentially have the Indy 500 (sans pit stops) with FM5 sounds very cool to me. I've always loved the IndyCar series. very fast cars with exciting finishes (unlike what NASCAR has becomes where the only excitement is epic crashes).
post #82 of 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

...I don't hold out much hope for their AI system being the revolution they're portraying it as. But who knows, maybe I'm going to be pleasantly surprised. A real revolution in AI would provide this franchise with precisely what I say it needs...

Well with how MS is talking about their "cloud" powering new potential AI scenarios this might be a good first step. The beginnings seem to be laid out in front of us and hopefully that part takes off because I agree stale AI can really drag down the experience.
post #83 of 728
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/07/16/forza-motorsport-5-requires-one-time-internet-connection
Quote:
Flagship Xbox One launch title Forza Motorsport 5 – which will make extensive use of the console’s cloud capabilities and always-online functionality – will also be playable offline now that Microsoft has changed its policies. However, it will require a one-time connection to Xbox Live before you can play.

In an interview with IGN, Dan Greenawalt, the studio head at Forza developer Turn 10 Studios, clarified how their day-one racing game will work if your Xbox One isn’t connected to Xbox Live.

“So when you first boot up the game, we’re going to ask you to log in,” he explained. “And when you log in you’re going to get the Drivatars and you’re also going to get a whole bunch of content: tracks and cars. Our production schedule is such that we are putting them in as late as possible and that means making them free as downloadable content on Day One.

“[But] that is required content to play the game. We basically have designed the game to work with all that content no matter how late is coming in, in order to make the biggest game possible.”

In other words, because games have to be submitted to Microsoft testing, certified, and then pressed onto discs and shipped, Forza 5 has to be done much, much sooner than November. By requiring part of the game as a download on launch day, it gives Turn 10 extra time to finish everything. And so what you get on the disc you buy at the store won’t be the entire game. You’ll need to download the rest of it from Xbox Live (which should be possible to occur as you play, Greenawalt clarified).

After that, Greenawalt said, Forza 5 is like your refrigerator. “You have to fill it up with food the first time,” he explained. “And from then on, you connect whenever you want when you want to update your food. The Drivatars are as fresh as they are. It’s not like they’re going to degrade, but when you’re looking for new stuff – fresh stuff…it’s going to keep evolving. That’s the nature of this Drivatar system.”



When you first boot up the game, we’re going to ask you to log in.

Drivatar is Forza 5’s attempt at next-generation AI in that there is no pre-programmed artificial intelligence. Instead, a ghost version of yourself races on your behalf, using your repeated behavior and tendencies to mimic how you’d race if you were actually playing. Drivatars of random gamers all over the world are what you race against in your single-player campaign.

To that end, Greenawalt told us, “You do have to connect the game in order to get the latest Drivatars, because we need as many people training them as possible. And so rather than having just a launch-day set that was created by us, every day that people race is going to make the Drivatar set that much more accurate, that much more diverse, that much more interesting.

“All of the cloud and online features make the game far, far better,” Greenawalt summed up. “In fact I’d even say revolutionary. The things we’re doing with opponents and Drivatar are not something that anyone can envision unless you’ve played it. But we’re trying to get as much of that into the unconnected, offline mode as well.

“We’re not making a launch game. We’re making Forza 5, at launch.”
post #84 of 728
That's a shame for a retail release on a pressed disc now that the console has been provided with true offline capabilities. Someday the servers will close and this game will cease to be playable except on hardware that made this one time connection and still has the necessary content.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 11/9/13 at 7:24pm
post #85 of 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

That's a shame for a retail release on a pressed disc now that the console has been provided with true online capabilities. Someday the servers will close and this game will cease to be playable except on hardware that made this one time connection and still has the necessary content.

Seems weird to me to force the consumer who purchase a disc based copy to have to download something for the game to even run. Why bother selling a physical copy at all?

Then again the Xbone will not work until it connects to the internet either so if you don't have an internet connection it really doesn't matter as you can't play your Xbone even for offline games.
Edited by freemeat - 7/17/13 at 12:21am
post #86 of 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

Seems weird to me to force the consumer who purchase a disc based copy to have to download something for the game to even run. Why bother selling a physical copy at all?
Well... they didn't want to, remember? They were moving for discs to just be content delivery methods to bypass your bandwidth/download time. (And I was fine with that, honestly.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemeat View Post

Then again the Xbone will not work until it connects to the internet either so if you don't have an internet connection it really doesn't matter as you can't play your Xbone even for offline games.
While Microsoft's reversal on DRM made most happy, I think the reality is going to be that a lot of games are going to be internet dependent, even if they have elements that are seen as single-player only. We already see the release date patch as the norm for games this generation, and as games leverage server-side processing and online more, there are going to be less and less games that are truly standalone experiences for offline. I know people might bemoan that, but ultimately, that has been the evolution we've seen for a while now. And we're going to see even more of it as we move to persistent worlds, subscription-based update models, and ongoing content delivery like we're seeing here with Forza 5. Forza has always been big on the online community, though it has been handled in a legacy way where you can download car packs, liveries, etc. manually as you like. But moving it toward an internet required model lets them deliver that content in the background on a regular basis, lets them heavily leverage the user-created liveries, and provide meaningful improvements to the game's core systems (like AI, physics, etc.) over time as they get more data from players.

Times are changing. We're going to see games evolve beyond the notion of "the data on the disc", which is something Microsoft was trying to push and poorly communicated. I'm all for this change. Totally excited to buy Forza 5 digital on day one.
post #87 of 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Ames View Post

That's a shame for a retail release on a pressed disc now that the console has been provided with true online capabilities. Someday the servers will close and this game will cease to be playable except on hardware that made this one time connection and still has the necessary content.

I’m sure later editions will have everything included. Including a GOTY edition with all the paid DLC as well.

The only thing to really take from this is they’re not really prepared to make launch date, but are going to release anyways. Hopefully it’s just extra content plugged in, and not “you need this update or the disc is useless”. Still, bad precedents all around.

There’s also really no reason for it, unless MS was caught off guard. Everything seems to be pointing to the case that they moved up their original (and somewhat incomplete) plans after Sony held their feb presser.
post #88 of 728
Not really a big deal. Not planning on buying games on disc anyways.

Its probably a byproduct of the DRM reversal. Game designers ...especially the exclusive 'launch' ones were probably assuming the original online requirement.

Would not be surprised if other launch titles come out with similar requirements.
post #89 of 728
Good thing I'm going all digital from now on. Not that it's really that big a deal (people will make mountains out of any mole hill) but it drives home the point that really, just go digital already. I know people like reselling their old games but man the convenience of going digital to me outweigh any potential benefit to staying with a disc.
post #90 of 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

I’m sure later editions will have everything included. Including a GOTY edition with all the paid DLC as well.

Hopefully that will be the case since unlike those saying it doesn't really matter in the slightest that are minimizing what other people do care about, I want to be able to enjoy the vast majority of this console's single player experiences that are available on retail disc past the point when Microsoft is finished with it and turns their servers off. I'd be disappointed in anything that didn't provide the ability to insert a disc into any console at any time and still be able to enjoy the vast majority of the single player content for that release.

For some reason, just because they're going to move on immediately when this new console is replaced someday, they all think that there's nobody else that will want to still be able to enjoy this console past that point.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 7/17/13 at 8:48pm
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