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whats the best sub for the money max $500 - Page 2

post #31 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Which one is filled with feathers? wink.gif

It's obviously filled with a few hundred pounds of lead wink.gif A few hundred pounds of feathers just wouldn't be heavy enough biggrin.gif
Now that I think about it though that is an awfully small labyrinth...
post #32 of 90
Found this, that might be worth checking out:
http://www.amazon.com/Boston-Acoustics-Classic-CPS10Wi-Wireless/dp/B002R0DXBO/ref=sr_1_159?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1371315973&sr=1-159&keywords=compact+subwoofer

But that can't be right can it? confused.gif A 10" ported sub from a decent brand name with a 300 watt rms amp? That's just about in line with the Boston Acoustics Asw 650, which is far more expensive, and the pb-1000...

I would proceed with caution...if at all wink.gif

And of course one of 2 reviews for it describes it blowing up tongue.gif
post #33 of 90
what about the velodyne bassmatrix 10" for 199.00 closeout? 28-120hz +/-3db 185watt rms amp.
post #34 of 90
I don't think the bass matrix is on sale anymore: http://velodyne.com/special-offers/certified-refurbished.html?p=1

I mentioned the Vdr 12 a few posts back but probably not compact enough, (especially with 2 of them).
post #35 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

I don't think the bass matrix is on sale anymore: http://velodyne.com/special-offers/certified-refurbished.html?p=1

I mentioned the Vdr 12 a few posts back but probably not compact enough, (especially with 2 of them).

yes it is i just had it in the cart...was going to buy it for one of my touch tunes jukeboxes.

http://velodyne.com/bassmatrix-10.html
post #36 of 90
I may be in the same situation soon and this thread has great info. What I've taken away is that for a single sub that isn't too large and right around the $500 mark new there are three leading options. The SVS PB-1000, Outlaw LFM-1 Plus (which I think is too large), and the Rythmik LV12R. Is this correct to say without needing to add or remove anything?

After thought. Are these three subs worth almost twice the money of the RW-12D? Just have to ask since a lot of people rave about it when it's on sale under $300. Leaning towards this again since I'm in a condo/apartment and can't use medium to high volume. Cost vs. Reward.
Edited by auceny - 6/15/13 at 8:35pm
post #37 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by auceny View Post

I may be in the same situation soon and this thread has great info. What I've taken away is that for a single sub that isn't too large and right around the $500 mark new there are three leading options. The SVS PB-1000, Outlaw LFM-1 Plus (which I think is too large), and the Rythmik LV12R. Is this correct to say without needing to add or remove anything?

After thought. Are these three subs worth almost twice the money of the RW-12D? Just have to ask since a lot of people rave about it when it's on sale under $300. Leaning towards this again since I'm in a condo/apartment and can't use medium to high volume. Cost vs. Reward.

The Rythmik and the Svs aren't necessarily to much louder than the Klipsch.
They are however using lower port tunings, and very likely drivers more suited to the task of reproducing deeper bass (more excursion).
The Rythmik sounds like a more cost effective design for the money but i'm not sure you would even want any of those ported subs for a condo/apartment. Depending on the size of your room you might find that some of the subs that weren't suitable for the op would be more suitable to a smaller area.
post #38 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by auceny View Post

Are these three subs worth almost twice the money of the RW-12D?

As an owner of three RW-12d's, my unequivocal response is......YES!, YES! and YES!.

Based on what I know from personal experience, I would go above the LV12R but yes, I also understand that it boils down to Benjamins and how many of them one has to throw at the problem. Of the three, without question, the LV12R is at the front of the parade and yes, in my opinion, does make a difference in choice and yes, is definitely a better choice than a RW12d.
post #39 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by auceny View Post

I may be in the same situation soon and this thread has great info. What I've taken away is that for a single sub that isn't too large and right around the $500 mark new there are three leading options. The SVS PB-1000, Outlaw LFM-1 Plus (which I think is too large), and the Rythmik LV12R. Is this correct to say without needing to add or remove anything?

After thought. Are these three subs worth almost twice the money of the RW-12D? Just have to ask since a lot of people rave about it when it's on sale under $300. Leaning towards this again since I'm in a condo/apartment and can't use medium to high volume. Cost vs. Reward.

since all we have is data to go off of to make comparisons, go to data-bass.com/systems and look up the FV15HP in 2 port max output mode. Knock off 6db across the board and you will be close to the output of the LV12R. The numbers I come up with make it a output monster in its price range. Thats damn near XV15 performance for 589.00 shipped. Now go to the PB12NSD numbers and subtract 3db across the board and that will give you the output for the PB-1000 which is similar to the RW12D, actually the RW12 will have more output but less extension.

20-80hz average output.

Rythmik LV12R 110.2db

PB-1000 101.7db

Klipsch RW12 104-106db(being all we have is 1m peak data, there might be a slight variance)

As you can see the LV12R is a BEAST...I dont think many here understand its potential since there is no actual measurement data other than Rythmiks site that says its a 6db difference from the FV15HP.
post #40 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

since all we have is data to go off of to make comparisons, go to data-bass.com/systems and look up the FV15HP in 2 port max output mode. Knock off 6db across the board and you will be close to the output of the LV12R. The numbers I come up with make it a output monster in its price range. Thats damn near XV15 performance for 589.00 shipped. Now go to the PB12NSD numbers and subtract 3db across the board and that will give you the output for the PB-1000 which is similar to the RW12D, actually the RW12 will have more output but less extension.

20-80hz average output.

Rythmik LV12R 110.2db

PB-1000 101.7db

Klipsch RW12 104-106db(being all we have is 1m peak data, there might be a slight variance)

As you can see the LV12R is a BEAST...I dont think many here understand its potential since there is no actual measurement data other than Rythmiks site that says its a 6db difference from the FV15HP.

There is no reference point for Rythmik's claims. Rythmik also says their f12 is only down 2 dB at 14 hz, but with respect to what? Obviously that sub is not going to play 14 hz at any appreciable volume. The FV12 is not going to get nearly as loud as the FV15HP, based on what I have seen from the FV15HP measurements. I doubt it is only 6 db off of the FV15HP.
post #41 of 90
In my application I don't think overall db output will be the main concern. Will be looking for accuracy, tightness, dig, etc. If those are the correct terms for higher end performance regardless of the overall volume. The LV12R being near the XV15 is pretty amazing. Ignoring max output levels are the three pretty equal? Any others to consider such as sealed? SVS is kind of leading in my mind right now because of the 45 day trial period with free shipping both ways. Thanks for all the help and being patient with us sub newbies.

Here's a bad picture of the room. I will probably put the sub right at the end of the couch.
post #42 of 90
What are the room dimensions?
post #43 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

There is no reference point for Rythmik's claims. Rythmik also says their f12 is only down 2 dB at 14 hz, but with respect to what? Obviously that sub is not going to play 14 hz at any appreciable volume. The FV12 is not going to get nearly as loud as the FV15HP, based on what I have seen from the FV15HP measurements. I doubt it is only 6 db off of the FV15HP.

The reference point is at 20hz and I believe Brian posted that 2 LV12R's stacked would equal one FV15HP from 20hz on up...ill see if I can find the post. However I agree it seems like a tough feat but those rythmik servo subs are beasts.
post #44 of 90
I used the original FV12, it was not able to get as loud as a Outlaw LFM-1 EX when I compared them directly, although I did not measure the difference. Given that the LFM is between 5 to 7 dB down from the FV15HP, the FV12r has to be more than merely 6 dB down in maximum output capability to the FV15HP. Maybe Rythmik meant something like under a certain amount of distortion.
post #45 of 90
I ran the numbers on the drivers they offer for diy and found the DS1200 wasn't all that far down from the DS1501.
They apparently used the DS1505 driver in the FV15 and they're currently using the DS1510 in the FV15HP, but unfortunately they don't have the ts specs listed on the site for anything other than the DS1501.

The DS1510 has 20mm of excursion rather than 15mm and can also handle 100 more watts, I suppose using the DS1501 as a template in Winisd and adding the extra excursion and power handling would be close, but it probably won't tell the whole story.

Below is the Maximum spl chart (factors in power handling, cone excursion, box size and tuning) of the DS1501 and the DS1200 with optimal tunings and box sizes of the LV12R and FV15HP.
300 watts to the DS1200 and 500 watts to the DS1501:



Below is the expected spl chart without any sort of eq. Notice I gave the DS1501 the 600 watts of the FV15HP to simulate (hopefully) the DS1510.



And finally the cone excursion charts. Using 2nd order high pass filters 2 hz below tuning on both subs to avoid over excursion. That puts the xmax/excursion of the DS1501 (15mm xmax) close to the 20mm xmax of the DS1510 used in the FV15HP. The DS1200 is also close to it's 17.8 mm xmax/excursion.



Keep in mind the DS1510 might do quite a bit better in a 6 cu ft box than the DS1501 in the graphs above, without knowing the specs of the DS1510 there is no way to know for sure.

It is certainly plausible that the lv12r is only 6db down from the FV15HP, hopefully Rythmik will get the DS1510 specs up in the future, so we can confirm that.

It certainly appears that Rythmik's Frequency response claims either aren't anechoic or they include a lot of eq.
Eq would of course decrease available output before reaching xmax or running out of power.

The Rythmiks certainly seem to use efficient drivers. Xmax isn't top of the line but it is certainly very respectable. It would be nice if all sub manufacturers published specs like this but I suppose that would probably put a few of them out of business tongue.gif
Edited by Mik James - 6/17/13 at 10:58am
post #46 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I used the original FV12, it was not able to get as loud as a Outlaw LFM-1 EX when I compared them directly, although I did not measure the difference. Given that the LFM is between 5 to 7 dB down from the FV15HP, the FV12r has to be more than merely 6 dB down in maximum output capability to the FV15HP. Maybe Rythmik meant something like under a certain amount of distortion.

Yes I believe you are right..Thanks for your input!


Mik James, Thanks for posting that info. I looked at that data before posting and that was part of the reason that lead me to believe such output of the lv12r was plausible. However that is some serious output for a low powered 12" sub. Now we need Ricci to test one lol.
Edited by basshead81 - 6/17/13 at 8:22am
post #47 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

There is no reference point for Rythmik's claims. Rythmik also says their f12 is only down 2 dB at 14 hz, but with respect to what? Obviously that sub is not going to play 14 hz at any appreciable volume. The FV12 is not going to get nearly as loud as the FV15HP, based on what I have seen from the FV15HP measurements. I doubt it is only 6 db off of the FV15HP.

We clearly state the comparison is for 20hz only. The numbers are not meant to by taken literally, but rather just as a guideline. Now Ricci's measurement is burst output. So that is related more to the "headroom" (not peak vs average) of the driver plus amplifier. The two amplifiers used in FV15HP and LV12R are different and therefore has different headroom. That can account for 1 db difference.

In your case, I do think Outlaw makes you think it has a lot more output becasue 1) it is downfiring (lead to floor coupling) and 2) it has more ringing. I myself like very articulate sound. The ported subs we have need to be as good as sealed subs in 2 channel separate component system (not 2 channel from AVR). So all my previous ported subs had been tuned to be on clear side of the sound. But after your comment about FV12, I changed the design of LV12R by adding one extra boomy setting on the extension filter (which is the low extension setting). I have an LV12R in my living room right now. I cannot stand the boomy sound coming from that setting. But the mid extension is good enough for me and that is what I use. It is the same subwoofer. But by giving different amount of ringing to the time domain, it sounds like the same sub has different preceived loudness.

Mik,

Simulation is a good starting point. But simuation does not account for amplifier headroom. For instance, our H600 amp has a power rail of 103V with no music. But when it plays music, the power rail will drop to 70V. So there is this extra headroom from 103V to 70V that the simulation does not know how to account for. Impedance curve is further complication. A higher impedance point means the output is more like what can be have from a 103V supply (rather than a 70V supply). I think a lot of discussion has been focused on drivers and forgot the amplifiers are just equally important.
post #48 of 90
No doubt, it was just a visualization of the guideline. You could eek out another db or so with a different high pass filter configuration taking better advantage of xmax above the port tune and give it another 150 watts or so, but excursion is the limiting factor here not the amplifiers.

The advantage the FV15HP has other than output is extension in the lower tuning mode and the DS1510 might very well make great use of it with the power on tap.

Is there somewhere one can view the specs of the DS1510 and are they currently being sold?
All I could track down was the DS1501.
Edited by Mik James - 6/18/13 at 1:28pm
post #49 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by auceny View Post

In my application I don't think overall db output will be the main concern. Will be looking for accuracy, tightness, dig, etc. If those are the correct terms for higher end performance regardless of the overall volume. The LV12R being near the XV15 is pretty amazing. Ignoring max output levels are the three pretty equal? Any others to consider such as sealed? SVS is kind of leading in my mind right now because of the 45 day trial period with free shipping both ways. Thanks for all the help and being patient with us sub newbies.

Here's a bad picture of the room. I will probably put the sub right at the end of the couch.

I think we got a little sidetracked tongue.gif
I think a sealed sub would be more suitable for a smaller room while the Rythmik is probably overkill.
I thought you had to pay return shipping on SVS subs?
As far as extension without huge spl's perhaps a smaller sub like an NXG-BAS-500 or an Hsu (stf vtf) and a couple of bass shakers would be suitable.
That way you get some decent sounding lower bass down to around the 25-30hz area and a bass shaker would take over from there without bothering the neighbors...
Edited by Mik James - 6/18/13 at 10:38pm
post #50 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

I think we got a little sidetracked tongue.gif
I think a sealed sub would be more suitable for a smaller room while the Rythmik is probably overkill.
I thought you had to return shipping on SVS subs?
As far as extension without huge spl's perhaps a smaller sub like an NXG-BAS-500 or an Hsu (stf vtf) and a couple of bass shakers would be suitable.
That way you get some decent sounding lower bass down to around the 25-30hz area and a bass shaker would take over from there without bothering the neighbors?

Not too side tracked since good info was being shared. I'm looking at a used SB12-NSD currently. Think that would hit the lows without being overkill on db?
post #51 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by auceny View Post

Not too side tracked since good info was being shared. I'm looking at a used SB12-NSD currently. Think that would hit the lows without being overkill on db?

In a small sealed room yes..in a larger room thats open, no.
post #52 of 90
I think bass shakers are a good match for your situation:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-386
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-388
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=299-028
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-9406

You'd probably want 4 of the Daytons or a couple of the others.
The buttkicker looks to be the best for infrasonic bass but it's also quite a bit more expensive...

The following plate amps have their own cases and I believe they are safe to operate outside of an enclosure (better value than conventional amp):
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-784
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-802

They should also fit reasonably into this enclosure: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/speaker-flat-packs/swope-flat-pack.html
Though there will be gaps at the top and bottom, and you might want to check my measurements tongue.gif

You could also run the Daytons and the Auras off of a receiver or power amp if you have one, but you'll want an infrasonic capable amp for the buttkicker.
I believe the sub out from your receiver should work as a low pass filter/crossover as well.

I might just buy one of these myself at those prices, maybe someone else can chime in on the performance of them.

Also depending on the size of your mains you'll likely still want a decent sub to get down to around the 30hz area.
Edited by Mik James - 6/18/13 at 10:54pm
post #53 of 90
I'm leaning toward a clearance PB-1000 currently to get low and still fill the space. Was talking to Tom at PSA and really would like a XS-15 but I don't think I can talk myself in to the extra $300.
post #54 of 90
The pb-1000 will work well, the xs15 measures down to 26hz +-3db which wouldn't be much better than the cheaper Hsu's and Nxg-bas-500, other than the higher output and possible shallower roll-off.
post #55 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

The pb-1000 will work well, the xs15 measures down to 26hz +-3db which wouldn't be much better than the cheaper Hsu's and Nxg-bas-500, other than the higher output and possible shallower roll-off.

the xs15 will extend deep into the 16-20hz in about any room thats less than 3000^3. PSA gives measurements based on open ground plane and in room. I am not saying the pb-1000 wont work well, but its definately not on the xs15 level.
Edited by basshead81 - 6/21/13 at 1:16pm
post #56 of 90
Even though I read that on their website I was hoping to ignore it and assume I would get close for $300 less. I'm not positive how big 3000^3 is but the room is fairly large. Dining, kitchen, living all one open space in a condo.
post #57 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by auceny View Post

Even though I read that on their website I was hoping to ignore it and assume I would get close for $300 less. I'm not positive how big 3000^3 is but the room is fairly large. Dining, kitchen, living all one open space in a condo.

3000^3 room is roughly 20x20x8. you can get a xs15 b-stock for 719.00 shipped. It would be well worth it over a pb-1000, especially in a larger room! Also if your on a budget, grab the Rythmik LV12R for 589.00 shipped. That would be a significant upgrade over a pb-1000...its comparable to the pb12nsd.
post #58 of 90
Quote:
the xs15 will extend deep into the 16-20hz in about any room thats less than 3000^3. PSA gives measurements based on open ground plane and in room. I am not saying the pb-1000 wont work well, but its definately not on the xs15 level.

The room gain measurements on their site looked pretty optimistic, your taking a chance either way:

Option A) Buy the XS15 and possibly get usable output at 16hz in your room.

Option B) Buy the Pb-1000 and possibly get lower than the 19hz Svs states depending on how they measured it.

Either has the potential to make your neighbors resent you so I guess it's win win biggrin.gif
post #59 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

The room gain measurements on their site looked pretty optimistic, your taking a chance either way:

Option A) Buy the XS15 and possibly get usable output at 16hz in your room.

Option B) Buy the Pb-1000 and possibly get lower than the 19hz Svs states depending on how they measured it.

Either has the potential to make your neighbors resent you so I guess it's win win biggrin.gif

its not optimistic its proven...read the reviews over at home theatre shack. my xv15's are rated 21hz with typical in room extension of 16-18hz...I am flat to 16hz with useable output down to 12-14hz. in the right room the xs15 would extend lower. the pb1000 does not come close in overall performance, however yes its a good sub.
post #60 of 90
I can see the pb-1000 coming close in performance at 19hz and above with a flat response, below that the Xs15 would win out.
You can see it for yourself with Winisd, a Peerless XXLS 10" and a Tc Sounds Lms-r 15".
Assuming the Psa driver's are anywhere near as good in compact sealed enclosures as the TC drivers and your going for a flat eq'd response.
I guess I was a little leary of the 35hz f3 on the xs15 specs page, and i think a 3000 cu ft room would be pushing it a bit for room gain reliance.

And we are talking about the X "S" 15 right, not the X "V" 15?
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