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Stereo full range speakers under 3000 for a metalhead - Page 2

post #31 of 62
Zu speakers that have the worst speaker measurements ever measured on Stereophile ? eek.gif

I know measurements don't tell the whole story to a certain point, but a -17dB response @ 4-5kHz, -11dB @ 3kHz, -10dB @ 6kHz, and +3dB straight from 10kHz-20kHz is just utterly ridiculous. I don't know how John Atkinson or anyone who reviewed Zu speakers could even keep a straight face. biggrin.gif

http://www.stereophile.com/content/zu-essence-loudspeaker-measurements

Maybe that's why some companies don't want their speakers measured and published. biggrin.gif

It looks pathetic when their speakers measure worst than Bose. eek.gif

On the bright side, I suppose as long as you listen to music that only has contents from 200 Hz -2 kHz, it will sound just fine. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 6/13/13 at 12:51pm

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post #32 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

On the bright side, I suppose as long as you listen to music that only has contents from 200 Hz -2 kHz, it will sound just fine. biggrin.gif

As someone who only listens to recordings from the 1930's, I think those Zu speakers will do just fine, so there is no need for you to badmouth them!
post #33 of 62
Zu speakers have received numerous very positive reviews. The reasonable conclusion is not that they sound awful but that the measurements from the Stereophile article to which you linked do not reflect how they sound.
post #34 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

As someone who only listens to recordings from the 1930's, I think those Zu speakers will do just fine, so there is no need for you to badmouth them!

But is it really "badmouthing" when he posts objective data that supports what he is saying, or is a statement of fact?
post #35 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

But is it really "badmouthing" when he posts objective data that supports what he is saying, or is a statement of fact?

the measurements were factual, the conclusion by the reviewer stated that the speakers didn't sound bad.
he was "surprised" at the disparity between what he 'personally' measured and what he heard from the speakers.
it could be considered a tad disingenuous to present evidence to further your argument when in fact that evidence
is questioned by the very person who discovered it.

In many ways, the Zu Essence is an underachiever, measurement-wise. But the surprise for me, when I auditioned it in AD's room, was how much of its measured misbehavior was not too audible, other than the rolled-off highs and the lack of impact in the lower midrange. I suspect that Zu's designer has carefully balanced the individual aspects of the Essence's design so that the musical result is greater than the sum of its often disappointingly-measuring parts.—John Atkinson

So is that a ringing endorsement, hardly, but its not a statement that would merit dismissing a speaker
outright because of what it looks like on paper.
I am a firm believer in facts, not so much of the convenient varitey.
post #36 of 62
To get back on the track of this thread, OP I'm sure you already know this but "used" gear
can really be a smart way to go.
I was just looking at speakers on Audiogon last night and there are lots of models in your price range.
they also have a forum so if you see something that strikes your fancy, make a note and ask someone
over there.

good luck
post #37 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkzy56 View Post

the measurements were factual, the conclusion by the reviewer stated that the speakers didn't sound bad.
he was "surprised" at the disparity between what he 'personally' measured and what he heard from the speakers.
it could be considered a tad disingenuous to present evidence to further your argument when in fact that evidence
is questioned by the very person who discovered it.

In many ways, the Zu Essence is an underachiever, measurement-wise. But the surprise for me, when I auditioned it in AD's room, was how much of its measured misbehavior was not too audible, other than the rolled-off highs and the lack of impact in the lower midrange. I suspect that Zu's designer has carefully balanced the individual aspects of the Essence's design so that the musical result is greater than the sum of its often disappointingly-measuring parts.—John Atkinson

So is that a ringing endorsement, hardly, but its not a statement that would merit dismissing a speaker
outright because of what it looks like on paper.
I am a firm believer in facts, not so much of the convenient varitey.

To me. objective data (measurements) are facts, while subjective opinions are of the "convenient variety".

To each their own I suppose.
post #38 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

To me. objective data (measurements) are facts, while subjective opinions are of the "convenient variety".

I agree completely.

Perhaps I came off a bit rude with my factual statements, but I just can't recommend extremely poorly-measured speakers to anyone.

I'm sorry, but has anyone ever seen a frequency response of -17dB @ 4-5kHz?

I mean a +/-6dB is not great, but a -11dB, -10dB, and -17dB all in the important frequency region?

There are just way too many great speakers out there with either decent, better, or great measurements.
post #39 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheFlatField View Post

Hahaha,

Well if the speakers are 2500 dollars our less I could work some cheap crown amplifiers or something into the purchase and lose the amplifier that actually IS from the 80s.

that's a better idea.

imo, something like a magnepan mg12 or 1.7 coupled with a used qsc or similar and sub per your taste will fill the prescription.

the sound of electric guitars rendered by maggies is not something thats easily forgotten.
post #40 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 View Post

woo hoo, another metalhead!! Sorry for the outburst, carry on now...



+1

\m/ \m/
post #41 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Man, are you telling me Zu speakers don't measure extremely terribly?

How can you defend a speaker with a -17dB response @ 4-5kHz and -10dB and -11dB in the vicinity frequencies?

Well, you can speak your mind, I can speak my mind, and everyone can speak his mind.

The fact is, Zu speakers measure extremely terribly. If they measure just mediocre, I probably would not "bad mouth" them.

LOL, read my reply a little closer! The art of subtlety is lost on today's youth...
post #42 of 62
If you want room filling metal I would not recommend a raal tweeter anyway as their sweet spot is limited compared to a good dome tweeter, especially on the vertical plane.
post #43 of 62
The Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 are $2500 ($3000 in wood finish) and should sound pretty pleasing with sub-optimal metal recordings.
post #44 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

LOL, read my reply a little closer! The art of subtlety is lost on today's youth...

Oh, well, yeah, I knew that. biggrin.gif

Why, I was just playing along. Yeah. wink.gif

Yeah, sure, for those who only listen to recordings from the 1930s when it sounded like crap. biggrin.gif
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 6/14/13 at 5:23am
post #45 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

If you want room filling metal I would not recommend a raal tweeter anyway as their sweet spot is limited compared to a good dome tweeter, especially on the vertical plane.

That is some false information. Actually, it seems the opposite to have more truth.
post #46 of 62
I know of one metal head AVS/AH member who prefer the sound of KEF Q900 over some other speakers. Compare, compare, compare.
post #47 of 62
What a narrow-minded comment... There is a lot of metal music nowadays that is really well produced... People that don't know something tend to generalize without trying to find out the truth, and supporting it with facts...eek.gif
post #48 of 62
Kef Q series may work well.

Way under budget but a darned good speaker is the Ascend CMT-340 SE. I just replaced a pair of Q300 with these. The Kef Q300 are fantastic speakers but didn't work well in my huge room. Anyway, my wife helped with the comparison, and she likes Metal. With just about every song and listening position from 3' to 20' we chose the Ascend. Since I had given her a black eye with a falling banana plug when we mounted the Kefs I played from her library the rest of the day, and I enjoyed the music almost as much as she did.

Two morals to this story. Two accurate speakers side by side does not mean the sound will be the same, and more surprising, metal can sound good out accurate speakers biggrin.gif
Edited by Nethawk - 6/14/13 at 6:56am
post #49 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarghon View Post

What a narrow-minded comment... There is a lot of metal music nowadays that is really well produced... People that don't know something tend to generalize without trying to find out the truth, and supporting it with facts...eek.gif

There is also a very large percentage in this genre that is highly compressed. I'm less opposed to the music itself than I am the production. Ease off the defense, we're all having fun here. wink.gif
post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I know of one metal head AVS/AH member who prefer the sound of KEF Q900 over some other speakers. Compare, compare, compare.

I wasn't dismissing the Q series just above, the towers may be a big step up from their bookshelves and every room is different.

Definitely compare. I think it's time our new Seeker (just finished a Harry Potter marathon) went out and listened to everything he could.
post #51 of 62
Hello Jonatha... I'll try to help you by removing a speaker brand on your list... I'm in the same situation than you are...And i'll try to show you why Klipsch shoudn't be advised for metal music, while it is by a lot of uninitiated folks... I'm currently using klipsch rf-62 speakers... While people in general tend to recommend them for metal because of their high dynamics and detail level, these strenghts are destroyed by their shorcomings... And I want to switch brands.

The bass is really powerful, and while it would seem as an advantage for heavy music, it blurs the sound a lot. The midrange gets lost between the extreme nature of the bass and Highs, thus limiting incisiveness... When things get busy and fast, the overall quality of the sound gets realllly lowered. Thus , the guitars lose a lot of weight and "sharpness"... Klipsch speakers aren't "agile" by that I'm meaning that the metallic cones are so rigid that they aren't able to keep it up , when the rhythmic pace goes up.. And that is a sad thing for black/death metal lovers my friend... That problem actually quite tears me up, since when the music is slower, and "aerated" kilpsch does wonders... For doom metal , for example, the guitars and drums crush with heaviness and precision.....

And for those highs,,, Yes, they are the most detailed you're likely to hear, The cymbals are clear, "percussive" and hit with aplomb...You will likely hear things and instruments you've never heard before... But for music like black metal, which is, like you said, often shrill and bright by nature, it is really a problem since Klipsches ( reference line at least ) augments these traits a lot...

Basically, because of their Bassy/high nature, I'd call these speakers a Drums lovers dream...But it comes at the expense of instruments comporting a lot of mid frequencies, like guitars...

Like I've said, I'm quite sad about that. I listen to a lot of prog rock, and to some electronic music too, and they are awesome in that department. Pink floyd and Genesis easily sound like being played on speakers twice the price, The detail level really helps in that kind of music, and when the pace allows the Klipsches to remain composed, they are hard to beat. But they can't be constant, so for someone with diverse tastes like you and me, it's a no-no...

Hope it helped!
post #52 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

There is also a very large percentage in this genre that is highly compressed. I'm less opposed to the music itself than I am the production. Ease off the defense, we're all having fun here. wink.gif

IMO it's much easier for mellow/acoustic type music to sound great. It's much more of a challenge productions wise to make metal sound good. I don't say that out of any actual knowledge of the process of producing music.... just seems to be that way to me.
post #53 of 62
Aahaha Nethawk, dont worry! I'm having fun!

And my comment was directly aimed towards a user that said exactly that:
It doesn't matter how good your speakers are, metal will still sound like crap.tongue.gif

cool.gif
post #54 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarghon View Post

Hello Jonatha... I'll try to help you by removing a speaker brand on your list... I'm in the same situation than you are...And i'll try to show you why Klipsch shoudn't be advised for metal music, while it is by a lot of uninitiated folks... I'm currently using klipsch rf-62 speakers... While people in general tend to recommend them for metal because of their high dynamics and detail level, these strenghts are destroyed by their shorcomings... And I want to switch brands.

The bass is really powerful, and while it would seem as an advantage for heavy music, it blurs the sound a lot. The midrange gets lost between the extreme nature of the bass and Highs, thus limiting incisiveness... When things get busy and fast, the overall quality of the sound gets realllly lowered. Thus , the guitars lose a lot of weight and "sharpness"... Klipsch speakers aren't "agile" by that I'm meaning that the metallic cones are so rigid that they aren't able to keep it up , when the rhythmic pace goes up.. And that is a sad thing for black/death metal lovers my friend... That problem actually quite tears me up, since when the music is slower, and "aerated" kilpsch does wonders... For doom metal , for example, the guitars and drums crush with heaviness and precision.....

And for those highs,,, Yes, they are the most detailed you're likely to hear, The cymbals are clear, "percussive" and hit with aplomb...You will likely hear things and instruments you've never heard before... But for music like black metal, which is, like you said, often shrill and bright by nature, it is really a problem since Klipsches ( reference line at least ) augments these traits a lot...

Basically, because of their Bassy/high nature, I'd call these speakers a Drums lovers dream...But it comes at the expense of instruments comporting a lot of mid frequencies, like guitars...

Like I've said, I'm quite sad about that. I listen to a lot of prog rock, and to some electronic music too, and they are awesome in that department. Pink floyd and Genesis easily sound like being played on speakers twice the price, The detail level really helps in that kind of music, and when the pace allows the Klipsches to remain composed, they are hard to beat. But they can't be constant, so for someone with diverse tastes like you and me, it's a no-no...

Hope it helped!


Sorry to be pushing my speakers here, that wasn't my intent when I stuck my nose in this thread (I'm a metal head so the thread title caught my attention) because I don't have full range speakers (JTR Noesis 212's). However I can't help it since I looked for ever to find speakers that had the strengths you are talking about with your Klipsch (actually smoother better sounding highs) but at the same time have a great sounding mid-range too. The reason IMO has to be the massive compression driver and wave guide (or horn or whatever it's called) that allows the speaker to be crossed over at 400hz (or maybe it's 300hz, but I think it's 400). The result is crystal clear highs with a massive/precise sounding midrange that never fatigues - well at least for me anyway. I've never heard a speaker that sound so big and open.

Problem is they are REALLY expensive and like I said not full range (mine measure to mid 50's in my room using omnimic) and not what the OP is looking for. From your post it looks like they might be just the ticket for you which is why I brought them up.
post #55 of 62
Hello Carp!

Thanks for your recommendation, which might help me too for my future ( sooon) brand switch... How much are your speakers? I really don't mind my next speakers being full range or not!

@ Jonathan È I want to add a little something : I just know all too well that Klipsches are vastly recommended on the net for metal music... I Kind of understand why they are, because, on paper, their strenghts seem to be a perfect match for the characteristics of metal music...

I've fell into it, and bought mine upon recommendation, and a listen of a record that fitted the bill well..

And it's all a matter of taste after all, and maybe my arguments are mainly MY perception... But I also think the OP can keep what he finds logical about my experience wink.gif
post #56 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarghon View Post

Hello Carp!

Thanks for your recommendation, which might help me too for my future ( sooon) brand switch... How much are your speakers? I really don't mind my next speakers being full range or not!

@ Jonathan È I want to add a little something : I just know all too well that Klipsches are vastly recommended on the net for metal music... I Kind of understand why they are, because, on paper, their strenghts seem to be a perfect match for the characteristics of metal music...

I've fell into it, and bought mine upon recommendation, and a listen of a record that fitted the bill well..

And it's all a matter of taste after all, and maybe my arguments are mainly MY perception... But I also think the OP can keep what he finds logical about my experience wink.gif


Oh, ok cool - glad I said something then. They are 2200 per speaker. A big chunk of that is the compression driver, it costs 700 -750 ish by itself. There is also a model called the Noesis 228's which are 1200 per speaker and do sound great as well. IMO the price difference is worth it to get the 212's especially for music. The 228's have a 1 inch compression driver instead of a 1.4 (or is it 1.5) and are crossed over around 900hz instead of 400hz which to me makes a difference in favor of the 212's. However, some local friends/avs members and I recently did a comparison between the 2 models and even thought all of us preferred the 212's, the other 3 guys did not think it was as significant of a difference as I did.

I couldn't really afford these speakers but still so glad I have them since I spend so much time listening to music, mostly metal. smile.gif
post #57 of 62
post #58 of 62
^^ Another great choice. I owned the previous LSi speakers (which are still being sold at very good prices). Their ring radiator tweeter would likely be a very good choice for this genre. And, if you paired the system with a Rythmik FV15HP you've got yourself a very high quality (if a bit noisy) chick magnet biggrin.gif
post #59 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

I wasn't dismissing the Q series just above, the towers may be a big step up from their bookshelves and every room is different.

Definitely compare. I think it's time our new Seeker (just finished a Harry Potter marathon) went out and listened to everything he could.

Oh, I missed your post. Sorry about the wife's black eye. eek.gif

Yeah, Ascend is definitely a contender w/ all the best.

There are a lot of good speakers. Just gotta pick the one we like best.
post #60 of 62
Slightly OT, but if you're a metalhead who likes Megadeth, their 2 most recent album releases (Super Collider and Thirteen, available from HDTracks.com) are markedly better than their CD counterparts. Not nearly as much compression, and a lot more enjoyable on high-quality systems smile.gif Unfortunately, their Countdown to Extinction and Peace Sells... reissues from the same site did not have as positive of a result.
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